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Author Topic: What should we be doing to prepare for the inevitable varroa mite invasion?  (Read 3232 times)

Online Lesgold

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Thanks for the advice. At the moment the nearest problem areas are about 350km away. It will only take one infected hive moved into the region to change that. If I?m lucky, it may take a year or two to arrive. If luck is not on my side, it could be a couple of weeks. Time will tell.

Offline beesnweeds

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Next step for varroa in Australia:  Universities and non profits need research money now! :wink:
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Offline Ben Framed

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They can save their money and come here to "Beemaster" and search the archives..  :grin: :wink:
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Offline Bob Wilson

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I suppose treatment might be OK if your livelihood depends on your bees. At least the hope is to hold on to that livelihood until natural resistance builds.
However, for us hobbyists, who can absorb losses more easily, then we can help by keeping treatment free hives and letting the bees develop their own resistance.
You can keep bees without treatment. Many of us here on Beemaster have been doing so for years.

Online Lesgold

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That?s what I?m hoping for. Thanks for posting Bob. I?d be interested in hearing about your journey in relation to Varroa and being treatment free.

Offline Ben Framed

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That?s what I?m hoping for. Thanks for posting Bob. I?d be interested in hearing about your journey in relation to Varroa and being treatment free.

See << Reply #22  below:
https://beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=52003.msg463813#msg463813
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Online Lesgold

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Re: What should we be doing to prepare for the inevitable varroa mite invasio
« Reply #26 on: October 03, 2023, 02:23:12 am »
Thanks Phillip. I actually read that comment this morning. That is something to look forward to 👎👎👎. It?s going to be hard when it hits, especially for those who rely on their bees. It will be a real head scratcher if any hives survive. If some do, then why? Will cranky hives survive? How about hives that tend to keep their house quite clean? Will my feral hives suffer more than those with good different genetic traits? So many unknowns at the moment.

Offline Bob Wilson

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Lesgold,
When I first researched about keeping bees, and before getting any bees at all, I made a decision based on my philosophical mindset.
I would be treatment free. If I was going to have to add medication/poison to keep them alive, then I wouldn't keep bees at all. I haven't for a moment believed that all the feral bees died out from varroa. They have been there all along, coping through nature. I reasoned that if they could live in the wild without treatment, then I should be able to keep them that way also. I like neither the idea, the cost, nor the trouble of treatment. This probably stems from working in the chemical section of a retail nursery when I was younger.
So, how have I kept them alive without treatment? Beats me. But, here are some things I have always done.
1. I keep my bees in long hives, but I doubt that makes any difference. I dismiss any idea that long hives are in some way a more "natural" beekeeping method.
2. I use foundationless frames. I have from the start. That means the bees build whatever size cell they want (ie. small cell). I don't restrict drone cell either.
3. I don't buy bees. I never have. I got started beekeeping by catching a few swarms. That means most of my bees are the little grey feral bees. However sometimes a swarm may be larger and yellow, which I suspect comes from some other beekeeper's yard. I consider the little grey bees to be feral, more hardy, and more resistant to varroa as well.
4. I always pull spring nucs, sometimes taking the old queen, but sometimes not. I do this to keep my bees from swarming, and I sell off the extra so I can strictly keep my own apiary down to 3 or 4 hives and a couple of nucs. (I live in close quarters suburbia)
5. I don't feed bees in general. Why should I? I leave them enough of their own honey, which is better for them anyway. No sugar water or pollen patties. Now if I catch some late season swarm, then I might feed that nuc a little.
It is true that I have lost a couple of colonies, but those were from sheer stupidity. I have weakened hives by pulling too many nucs, and they couldn't stave off hive beetles, or some such error on my part. Every loss so far I can trace back to some obvious fatal mismanagement. In 6 years I have had no winter losses, although I am sure my hives have varroa also. I imagine that every colony in America does.
All these factors above may be reasons for treatment free success, such as a minor beek like me enjoys, but I have no proof.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2023, 02:46:49 pm by Bob Wilson »

Offline The15thMember

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Bob, have you ever seen evidence of viruses in your colonies?  Deformed wings, or lots of hairless bees, or anything like that?
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Online Lesgold

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Thanks for that Bob,

It would be interesting to know the reasons why your bees survive and do well yet others struggle to keep hives alive. I wonder if location could also contribute to the success of your bees. I like your approach and agree with your philosophy. For a transition to what you are doing, I would need to drop the use of foundation and go to foundationless frames. Like you, I have feral bees and don?t buy packages or queens. When I first started in the hobby, I did buy one nuc but the rest were swarms. The nuc I purchased had chalkbrood and struggled for quite a while. I was naive and didn?t realise what the problem was until did some research. I was not a happy camper at that point. The person I purchased the nuc from was a professional who held classes, sold equipment etc. He transferred the nuc to a hive that I supplied and would have known the problem was present. I should have contacted him about the issue but didn?t as it would have meant a 400km round trip to replace the nuc. Instead I just contacted a couple of local beekeepers, got some advice and dealt with it. That guy was obviously wiped off my Christmas card list and lost any future business from me. In saying that, most people I have met who sell nucs or hives, take the time to ensure hives are healthy and disease free. I did purchase a few queen from reputable suppliers early on. In most cases I found the resulting hives to be quiet and well behaved but I didn?t notice any noticeable increase in honey production. A couple of my early mentors gave up buying queens decades ago and allowed the bees to do their own thing. They always had healthy bees that produced large quantities of honey and convinced me that I was wasting my money buying queens. My feral bees go well but I do end up with the odd hive that has attitude problems. I now have bees that seem to keep SHB under control. They have obviously learnt how to deal with the pest. I lost my first hive to the beetle last year but that was due to my error rather than the bees. I am hoping that the bees will eventually develop traits that will help to control varroa. It?s a gamble that may cost me all of my hives but at the end of the day I am comfortable with that.

Offline cao

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Like bob, I have been treatment free since I started 10 years ago.  I started with three nucs, lost one the first winter.  Bought two packages the second year, neither one made it past the summer.  After that, I decided I was not buying any more bees.  Increased hive count each year by making splits until I reached near 100 hives a few years ago.  I decided that was too many too take care of and small hive beetles also took their toll.  Now I am in a better place with between 40-60 hives.  I do have winter losses but nothing out of the ordinary.  I have gotten away from wax foundation.  I do use some plastic foundation but, most of my frames only have starter strips. 

I have seen the occasional hairless bee or one with deformed wings but not very often.  I don't recall seeing any this year. 

I haven't fed my bees other than setting wax cappings and screens for the bees to clean up after harvesting honey for at least three or four years.  Some hives go into winter very light so I expect to lose some hives.


Offline NigelP

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It would seem from a brief reading of several treatment free beekeepers that they are not keeping bees for commercial gain. Affording to leave honey on for bees overwinter is good but makes no commercial sense.  I suspect climate may have a big part to play in whether treatment free can be commercially successful.
In the UK it is not a no go, but a real go slow. The treatment free colonies I have had the misfortune to examine have been small vicious and not worth keeping as major honey producers. I have to help a friend out who is determined to not treat, we are taking off 1 UK super per hive with approx 20lbs of honey in each. A seasons worth of honey gathering, admittedly in not a good foraging area. With most of my treated hives averaging over 200lbs of surplus honey  tells of the possible advantages of treating for varroa. (approx 2 minutes per hive per year).
With good eyesight you will see the varroa mite on the bee below. Would you consciously allow any animal to be parasitized by such a large beast when there are several options to treat?
But each to their own way of dealing with varroa.

« Last Edit: October 05, 2023, 02:32:19 pm by NigelP »

Offline animal

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Ok, just some stupid questions here ...
Treatment free sounds "good" for building resistance. Treatment seems much better for production.

Are all successful treatment free hives small cell/foundationless ?

Have there been any experimental programs of using successful strains of "treatment free" raised breeding stock  in treated hives ?

or alternately ... attempts at breeding bees that are more resistant to formic acid (or amitraz)?
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Offline Terri Yaki

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Ok, just some stupid questions here ...
Treatment free sounds "good" for building resistance. Treatment seems much better for production.

Are all successful treatment free hives small cell/foundationless ?

Have there been any experimental programs of using successful strains of "treatment free" raised breeding stock  in treated hives ?

or alternately ... attempts at breeding bees that are more resistant to formic acid (or amitraz)?
The beekeepers club that I am looking at has some members claiming to be selling varroa resistant queens but I question the validity of that claim.

Offline The15thMember

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The beekeepers club that I am looking at has some members claiming to be selling varroa resistant queens but I question the validity of that claim.
There are some lines of queens with decent varroa resistance.  They are often labeled VSH (varroa sensitive hygiene) for bees that display hygienic traits and/or behavior.  Beeweaver queens and Purdue mite-biters would be some examples of strains bred specifically for varroa resistance.  Some people also have "survivor stock", bees that are descendants of colonies that survived without treatment the initial onslaught of varroa in the US.  Definitely ask questions of people to test the validity of such claims, but those bees are out there. 

Have there been any experimental programs of using successful strains of "treatment free" raised breeding stock  in treated hives ?

or alternately ... attempts at breeding bees that are more resistant to formic acid (or amitraz)?
   
I'm not really sure what you are getting at, animal.  What could we learn by treating "treatment free" stock?  And why do we want bees to be more resistant to miticides?  Formic does tend to take out weak bees, but I kind of view that as a positive, not a negative.  And I've never used amitraz, but I don't think the bee mortality with those products is high.   
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Offline animal

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the idea was to use hives with varroa resistance produce queens and then use those queens to gradually replace the queens in  commercial hives. Even if the queens were producing varroa resistant offspring, replacement of all the non-resistant bees/colonies would have to be a gradual process because of the numbers needed and possible loss of desired traits through uncontrolled breeding. I'm assuming that using virgin queens would be safest from the standpoint of preserving genetic diversity but would necessarily be a slower process. It seems to me that using pre-mated queens would require many more different and separately developed lines of queens that were varroa resistant.
 The commercial operation would still need to continue treatment as usual until non-resistant bees/colonies are replaced. Hopefully, they would gradually be able to shift to reduced or no treatment.

but I'm no geneticist, much less a bee one, and like I said, just a few stupid questions  :embarassed:

resistance to the chems used for control of the mites would allow stronger concentrations to be used and less frequently ... lowering the chance of resistant strains of mites developing, and if they do, more easily recognized so that they could be burned or otherwise sterilized. Personally, I'd like it if my bees were resistant to permethrin. Dealing with ants and some other pests has been a pain lately (they're not in the hive, I'm just hesitant to spray anything around the house/lawn.)
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Offline Bob Wilson

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I see a black hairless bee maybe once or twice a year, and a wing deformity about the same, although I haven't specifically gone looking for them. Most of my hives appear healthy with large brood nests.

Nigel.
Yes, I am a backyard Beek. I mentioned earlier that I understand the predicament of the commercial beekeeper. While I could conceivably lose all my hives to mites... with a few swarm boxes, I would be back in business the next spring. Not so for the commercial beeks. Their mortgages depend on it.
I regret your negative experience with treatment free hives. I hope you soon make the acquaintance of someone who is doing it better.

Offline Ben Framed

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This may be of interest to some of you with patience, and who don't mind a little 'outside the box thinking'.  lol


https://beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=55226.msg504067#msg504067
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline Michael Bush

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>Are all successful treatment free hives small cell/foundationless ?

Kirk Webster is treatment free.  He makes his own foundation.  It's about 5.2mm.  Standard foundation is 5.4mm.  Small cell is 4.9mm  Natural cell varies within a hive and runs from about 4.4mm to 5.1mm with smaller towards the center of the brood nest.  Most of the people I know who are successful are doing small cell or foundationless.

>Have there been any experimental programs of using successful strains of "treatment free" raised breeding stock  in treated hives ?

There have certainly been people putting resistant stock in their hives since Varroa arrived.  The USDA had their Russians.  The university of Indiana had their "ankle biters".  Dr. Harbo has his SMR which are now VHS.  Dr. Spivak had her Minnesota Hygenics.  Kirk sells queens, though he's almost always sold out.  They are his own stock bred with Russians that he started with.

>or alternately ... attempts at breeding bees that are more resistant to formic acid (or amitraz)?

That is happening even if it's not intentional.  As long as you treat you are breeding bees that do well while treated.
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Offline jimineycricket

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Quote
Have there been any experimental programs of using successful strains of "treatment free" raised breeding stock  in treated hives ?

             Several people have worked on this, but no conclusive documentation available.  Here is good information for you to
read on Randy Oliver's journey. 

https://scientificbeekeeping.com/varroa-management/breeding-resistant-bees/
jimmy

 

anything