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Author Topic: Trap out gone sour: Suggestions?  (Read 9149 times)

Offline 2Sox

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Re: Trap out gone sour: Suggestions?
« Reply #20 on: May 29, 2021, 09:26:58 am »
Check this out!

https://youtu.be/DwP6fZ59ABI

This is absolutely great, Ben. Thanks.  I just sent this to the client to see if they would want to proceed with it.

I always use Bee Quick on my cutouts to chase out the remaining bees before stuffing in the insulation and sealing the entrance. (Learned that from JP.)  But I never used Honey Robber because I understand it smells really BAD.  Spraying that stuff inside a home, I figure wouldn?t go over too well.  The smell of marzipan is better than vomit.
"Good will is the desire to have something else stronger and more beautiful for this desire makes oneself stronger and more beautiful." - Eli Siegel, American educator, poet, founder of Aesthetic Realism

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Re: Trap out gone sour: Suggestions?
« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2021, 12:24:38 pm »
Keep in mind BeeQuick and Robber don?t work on well established hives. The nurse bees won?t abandon the brood.
If I was doing that vacuuming I would have removed to narrow tip when they came pouring out.
Jim Altmiller
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
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Online Ben Framed

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Re: Trap out gone sour: Suggestions?
« Reply #22 on: May 29, 2021, 12:59:09 pm »
Keep in mind BeeQuick and Robber don?t work on well established hives. The nurse bees won?t abandon the brood.
If I was doing that vacuuming I would have removed to narrow tip when they came pouring out.
Jim Altmiller

I would have Removed the narrow attachment also. I use the rounded attachment. I think these guys were just getting the feel of using a bee vac. Always a learning experience at first. (Video is 9 years old)

I ask anout the success of the queen and nurse bee evacuation but they did not answer.  From the (look) of the way the bees were boiling out could be? I love bee quick but I have never quite got that reaction. I will continue using beequick and recommending it. Smells good and moves the bees well inside a cutout . I was throwing this out there for 2sox in hope it may help him in his extreme situation.
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline 2Sox

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Re: Trap out gone sour: Suggestions?
« Reply #23 on: May 29, 2021, 03:20:03 pm »
Keep in mind BeeQuick and Robber don?t work on well established hives. The nurse bees won?t abandon the brood.
If I was doing that vacuuming I would have removed to narrow tip when they came pouring out.
Jim Altmiller

I would have Removed the narrow attachment also. I use the rounded attachment. I think these guys were just getting the feel of using a bee vac. Always a learning experience at first. (Video is 9 years old)

I ask anout the success of the queen and nurse bee evacuation but they did not answer.  From the (look) of the way the bees were boiling out could be? I love bee quick but I have never quite got that reaction. I will continue using beequick and recommending it. Smells good and moves the bees well inside a cutout . I was throwing this out there for 2sox in hope it may help him in his extreme situation.

I only use a narrow attachment to get into tight areas.  But it might not be a bad idea to use it more often. The best way to kill bees - along with excessive suction force - is to vacuum too many at once, and using a narrow attachment controls that automatically.

By the way, Ben, I sent that video to my client.  At this point I think the colony is just about done but I wanted them to see it anyway. I will be adding Honey Robber to my next equipment order. I always turn down situations where a trap out would be needed and maybe this would come in handy instead.

What do you think, Jim?
"Good will is the desire to have something else stronger and more beautiful for this desire makes oneself stronger and more beautiful." - Eli Siegel, American educator, poet, founder of Aesthetic Realism

Online Ben Framed

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Re: Trap out gone sour: Suggestions?
« Reply #24 on: May 29, 2021, 04:14:09 pm »
Thanks 2Sox
What I know about the stuff is what I watched and read on the video.  If you use it let us know how it works out.

I agree with your thoughts on the bee vac. Too much suction pressure on the bee vac is harmful.  I set mine where it is just strong enough to get them in. I test the pressure by adjusting suction pressure on the sensitive cheek area of my face. It is strong enough when I feel a slight (bump) when it makes contact. A heavy pull or bump is too much.  Using the round attachment end seems to work well with this combo. I don?t know the size of the opening but I will measure when I return home it is small enough that it fits inside the pool hose. I simply tape the two together. Maybe this information will help someone.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2021, 04:23:57 am by Ben Framed »
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Online Ben Framed

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Re: Trap out gone sour: Suggestions?
« Reply #25 on: May 30, 2021, 11:57:30 am »
Exterminators are a good contact source for potential removals. I learned the basics of how to do removals from watching duel members of youtube and beemaster; members JP and Schawee. JP is a licensed exterminator if I remember correctly.

A couple of unwritten requirements are "(Bee sure to have an eagle eye for queen catching), and (don't pass up a good milkshake,{"shake"}!)" 🙂
Schawee





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« Last Edit: May 30, 2021, 12:19:32 pm by Ben Framed »
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline Acebird

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Re: Trap out gone sour: Suggestions?
« Reply #26 on: May 31, 2021, 09:08:58 am »

I only use a narrow attachment to get into tight areas.  But it might not be a bad idea to use it more often. The best way to kill bees - along with excessive suction force - is to vacuum too many at once, and using a narrow attachment controls that automatically.

Suction is an undefined term. It is not suction that kills the bees it is air velocity that throws the bees against a hard object.  Narrowing down the hose is a good idea because it increases the air velocity at the tip to break the bee free from what they are holding on to.  As the tip widens into the hose the velocity slows down so the tumbling bees do not hit themselves and the inside of the vacuum can so hard.  Most shop vacs have an abrupt right hand turn at the end of the hose in the can.  It is helpful if you can modify the elbow to be more gentle.  Best would be if the hose enters the can tangentially like in a cyclone dust collector.
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Re: Trap out gone sour: Suggestions?
« Reply #27 on: May 31, 2021, 10:37:39 am »
Ace,
If the suction is too high the low air pressure expands the bees shell and damages the bees. If you don?t have a vacuum release valve on your bee vac you will have a lot of dead bees and most of them will bee wet from their stomachs emptying out when you turn off the vacuum.
Jim Altmiller
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
Ben Franklin

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Re: Trap out gone sour: Suggestions?
« Reply #28 on: May 31, 2021, 11:50:59 am »
Ace,
If the suction is too high the low air pressure expands the bees shell and damages the bees. If you don?t have a vacuum release valve on your bee vac you will have a lot of dead bees and most of them will bee wet from their stomachs emptying out when you turn off the vacuum.
Jim Altmiller

Good post Jim
I am stating the following  with fact. I do not lose bees with my vac set up as described in my earlier post. I have used my vac for cutouts and swarm retrievals (many times); adding not once have I damaged a queen to my knowledge. My vac is self made. I used the principles of the Colorado bee vac. Peg board is placed in the entire top of this vac where suction is drawn through these peg board holes evenly, inviting an even, steady, soft suction as soon as the bees enter the box. I built this vac before I obtained my first bee. This vac, along with JPs And Schawees videos were very important tools and information that vaulted me in beekeeping (actually having bees)! 🐝 😊





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« Last Edit: May 31, 2021, 12:28:13 pm by Ben Framed »
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline Acebird

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Re: Trap out gone sour: Suggestions?
« Reply #29 on: June 01, 2021, 08:55:18 am »
Ace,
If the suction is too high the low air pressure expands the bees shell and damages the bees. If you don?t have a vacuum release valve on your bee vac you will have a lot of dead bees and most of them will bee wet from their stomachs emptying out when you turn off the vacuum.
Jim Altmiller
There are a few things about your theory that make me suspect.  First of all a perfect vacuum is only 14psi which wouldn't hurt anything except for breathing animals.  I can't breath might make you puke.  Vacuum pressure increases when the hose is closed off so it should never get even close to 14psi.  The other thing that happens when the hose is close off is that the air velocity goes to zilch so you don't want to do that.  Some people use variacs to limit "suction" but what they are doing is limiting air velocity.  I am not saying you shouldn't have some control on a bee vac just saying that what you want to control is air velocity.
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Re: Trap out gone sour: Suggestions?
« Reply #30 on: June 01, 2021, 09:36:47 am »
Ace,
I wish you were correct, if so it would make vacuuming up bees easier. The first time I went to use my Robo type bee vacuum, i was still building it but wanted to try it out. I did not have the vacuum release valve installed.   It was a large swarm on a wall and when I opened it up 3/4 of the bees were dead and they were wet and sticky from the honey in their stomachs. It was the first time I used a shop vac instead of a small hand held unit. The vacuum suction was too strong

Bees are breathing animals. They have spiracals.
Jim Altmiller
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
Ben Franklin

Offline iddee

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Re: Trap out gone sour: Suggestions?
« Reply #31 on: June 01, 2021, 10:33:22 am »
I was taught vacuum is measured in inches, meaning inches of mercury, not PSI. Could you link me to the PSI measurements, please.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Online Ben Framed

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Re: Trap out gone sour: Suggestions?
« Reply #32 on: June 01, 2021, 01:00:53 pm »
Brian, Jim is accurate. I have not tried the ROBO Vac but I have heard nothing but good things about it. In fact if I had not already built mine, I might have tried the RoBo instead had I learned of it first. I just happened across my building idea from watching cutout videos mentioned above first, and the style I built is similar to what JP and Schawee was using. Find the building instructions and check it out. You will find a pressure relief as Jim described. To my knowledge all bee vacs have some type of simple pressure relief.
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Online Ben Framed

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Re: Trap out gone sour: Suggestions?
« Reply #33 on: June 01, 2021, 02:19:42 pm »
I realize we are drifting from the main heading title, but bee vacs do tie in directly to cutouts for most of us. Robo really did a good job inventing this type vac! Jeff Horchoff has a video showing step by step instructions of how he built his ROBO vac.
The video is titled: "Got bees? Get a Robo vac."
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline Acebird

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Offline Acebird

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Re: Trap out gone sour: Suggestions?
« Reply #35 on: June 03, 2021, 09:16:11 am »
The vacuum suction was too strong
Of course, but is that a result of negative pressure on the bee or the fact that it got slammed into something hard due to too much air velocity?  Puking requires muscle action.  If it was a case of negative pressure fluid would come out their butt as much as it comes out their mouth.  I won't deny that the bees don't puke.  Imagine the ride they get on the way to the collection device.
Some people use blowers to evacuate supers (positive pressure).  If it is too strong bees will get killed slamming into things on the way out and create quite a mess.
It is likely that the bees have full stomachs of honey or nectar.  After all you are smoking them.
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Online Ben Framed

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Re: Trap out gone sour: Suggestions?
« Reply #36 on: June 03, 2021, 10:45:03 am »
The pressure relief is used to reduce, (slamming), Injury you might check out the videos put out by Colorado bee vacs, it explains in detail. Suction pressure must be reduced in a bee vac in comparison to a regular vac or you will get the results Jim described on his first use.
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline 2Sox

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Re: Trap out gone sour: Suggestions?
« Reply #37 on: June 03, 2021, 04:49:01 pm »
Glad to see this discussion on bee vacs.  I can?t comment on PSI or inches of mercury but I can comment on suction and slamming, exploding bees.

I?m no world class cutout expert but I have done close to 100, I reckon, and I've learned some hard lessons.  I also have 3 different vac systems: Owens Bucket Vac, Robo vac, Colorado.

-Use VERY little smoke. The more smoke, the more honey sucked up, the more exploding bees inside the hose - if basic guidelines not followed (below). (Learned this from watching JP.)

- Pay careful attention to suction force. Too many and they bang into each other - exploding bees.

- Use the shortest hose possible - 8 feet max.  Long hoses kill bees - guaranteed. Hose clogs with bees, domino effect of exploding bees along with stinging each other.

- Vacuum very few bees at a time. Too many bees at once, colliding bees inside hose and container, exploding bees, stinging each other.

- Have a cushion on the back end of your bucket vac opposite the inlet, to facilitate a soft landing. I use foam inside my Owen?s.


"Good will is the desire to have something else stronger and more beautiful for this desire makes oneself stronger and more beautiful." - Eli Siegel, American educator, poet, founder of Aesthetic Realism

Online Ben Framed

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Re: Trap out gone sour: Suggestions?
« Reply #38 on: June 03, 2021, 07:37:20 pm »
Good stuff 2Sox. I agree that suction is the most important aspect. When I built my vac I was very thoughtful of just the negative effects that you, Jim, and Brian described. To much suction and they will clog up just as you say. Not enough suction an you get nowhere fast. With the suction set Just Right, the bees are vacuumed in at pace that clogging is all but eliminated and so is injury.

For my hose, I searched for a pool vac hose, and not just any pool hose. I have found that though (ridged) on the outside, some brands are almost smooth on the inside, which is just what we need in my opinion. I found this "perfect hose" at either Lowes or Home Depot, I am thinking it was Home Depot. 50' I cut it 20'/30' giving me two hoses.

I have vacuumed bees as high as 30' feet speaking of swarms. As we know swarming bees are usually filled with honey in order to be prepared for an fresh new start. I have had great success in not losing bees. Suction is the key factor, if not the most important factor. But really, all set up together, makes for a fine tuned well functional and dependable machine. 
« Last Edit: June 03, 2021, 07:50:21 pm by Ben Framed »
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Online Ben Framed

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Re: Trap out gone sour: Suggestions?
« Reply #39 on: June 03, 2021, 08:00:19 pm »
I suppose JP is versatile in bee vacs like you 2Sox. In this video he is using the ROBO (BushKill) vac and a hose that looks like mine. Notice he is using the flat style end. My end is the tapered round style, about the same size which slides perfectly inside the pool vac hose. Then I use tape to secure the two together. That JP is one bee cut-out machine! But so is 2Sox with 100 cutouts! Keep up the good work and good service to the public!!!

https://youtu.be/48lhXfDUJq0
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.