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Author Topic: Hive inspection advice  (Read 963 times)

Offline Sydney guy

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Hive inspection advice
« on: October 08, 2017, 12:05:27 am »
Today I went to help a friend with his first ever bee inspection, he was given a hive that is going really well. It is 2 supers deep. This hive has no queen excluder and the frames are all moulded together with wax. Frames a fragile. I was thinking prepare another box and have frames ready to replace the ones we break and moving into another box and putting a queen excluder in if we find queen.

Or should we just leave the box as is and put a fresh supper on the bottom and wait for Queen to move down into this box then later add the excluder.

Thanks for any advice

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Online sawdstmakr

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Re: Hive inspection advice
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2017, 08:20:45 am »
First, I don't use or recommend using a queen excluder. Can cause swarming and slow honey production.
I think adding a super under the hive is a good idea and allow the bees to build down. Then as the brood moves down and fill these boxes with honey, it will take at least two under Supers, you can remove and extract the honey and replace the frames as needed.
Jim
"If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed.  If you do read the newspaper you are misinformed."--Mark Twain

Offline Sydney guy

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Re: Hive inspection advice
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2017, 12:19:45 pm »
First, I don't use or recommend using a queen excluder. Can cause swarming and slow honey production.
I think adding a super under the hive is a good idea and allow the bees to build down. Then as the brood moves down and fill these boxes with honey, it will take at least two under Supers, you can remove and extract the honey and replace the frames as needed.
Jim
Thanks Jim, appreciate the reply.

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Offline RobboWA

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Re: Hive inspection advice
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2017, 03:42:42 am »
Hi Jim,
Have you ever used a queen excluded?
Clint

Online iddee

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Re: Hive inspection advice
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2017, 08:32:59 am »
I'm not Jim, but I agree with him. After 40 plus years of beekeeping, I have used excluders many times for many reasons. I have found an excluder for a newbee to be very detrimental. After about 5 years of intense beekeeping, a keeper may know enough of the pitfalls to be able to be successful at using them. Until then, he should only use them for getting his truck out of a mud hole.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Online sawdstmakr

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Re: Hive inspection advice
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2017, 10:11:25 am »
"Until then, he should only use them for getting his truck out of a mud hole."
 :cheesy:
"If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed.  If you do read the newspaper you are misinformed."--Mark Twain

Offline eltalia

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Re: Hive inspection advice
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2017, 03:59:57 pm »
I'm not Jim, but I agree with him. After 40 plus years of beekeeping, I have used excluders many times for many reasons. I have found an excluder for a newbee to be very detrimental. After about 5 years of intense beekeeping, a keeper may know enough of the pitfalls to be able to be successful at using them. Until then, he should only use them for getting his truck out of a mud hole.

Out there today, with the motivation for the new wave being "yummy honey", it is your loss - "your" being the consumer - where the newbee is not using a QX.... you would end up eating unseen raw protein, "beeguts" in local dialect.

Like screens/fume boards/ventilation penetrations the mighty QX demands management to "work as advertised", I read you acknowledge this..?... sure a colony will get by without using one if as an individual you manage your own preference but advice as has been posted and now seconded is naive at best, misleading at worst.

An' just for the record ol' fella??
"40 plus years" in the NH is not quite 8 years of real time in climes bees evolved in.
0r... if you like, your 40 equals my 100 plus, all of it using QX in some form or another.
Currently I am developing a variation for TBH colonies which I hope to market, this as I have found TBH colonies do very well for the addition.

Bill

Online iddee

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Re: Hive inspection advice
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2017, 06:59:40 pm »
"""Out there today, with the motivation for the new wave being "yummy honey", it is your loss - "your" being the consumer - where the newbee is not using a QX.... you would end up eating unseen raw protein, "beeguts" in local dialect."""

Do a search for "Bovine Feces".  It takes less training to NOT extract brood than it takes to learn to use an extractor.

"""40 plus years" in the NH is not quite 8 years of real time in climes bees evolved in.""

Again, more Bovine Feces. I keep Italian bees. Now compare the Italian climate to the North Carolina climate and tell us just how much difference there is. A light winter takes nearly as much work and planning as a summer. Even if it doesn't, a bee year here is about equal to a bee year in Italy.

I use QE in many forms. Raising queens,  getting out of mud,  finding queens in multiple box hives, ETC. I still do not recommend them to newbees and pity what the newbee will think of the person that does after he learns.

"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline RobboWA

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Re: Hive inspection advice
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2017, 09:49:27 pm »
May I ask what are some of the pitfalls? I?m only a hobby beekeeper with two hives I?ve had for about 3 years. I?ve had excluders in the whole time. Interested to hear your comments...

Online iddee

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Re: Hive inspection advice
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2017, 10:10:55 pm »
1... Bees move above in winter and leave queen to freeze.

2... Bees propolize much of it and reduce travel, thus less honey.

3... Mishandling bends wire and queen goes through. Queen is harvested with the honey.

That's just a few examples. There are many more.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline RobboWA

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Re: Hive inspection advice
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2017, 10:39:54 pm »
That?s enough for me to remove it, thank you

Offline 220

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Re: Hive inspection advice
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2017, 02:28:06 am »
I'm only just starting on my second year and haven't got any concerns about putting excluders on.
Put one on one hive last weekend, hive was 2 deeps with the queen laying in both boxes inner cover has a top entrance that was being well used by foragers. Put on a third deep with a excluder under it and the top entrance now at the top of the third box.
Given the foragers were keen on using the top entrance when only 2 deeps I think it will be even more heavily used with 3 deeps and an excluder in.
Will be removed when I pack down for winter if not before so no chance of the queen being stranded, if it gets bent/damaged, heavily propolised or to much wax on it I will just swap it out during a inspection and repair/clean at my leisure.

Online iddee

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Re: Hive inspection advice
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2017, 06:37:12 am »
Excluders are like guns, power saws, and other tools. Used correctly, they serve you well.Used incorrectly, they can do irreparable damage. The 3 pitfalls I listed are just examples. There are many more.

220, I hope you do well with them. Just be careful and watch for problems
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline eltalia

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Re: Hive inspection advice
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2017, 06:54:22 am »
May I ask what are some of the pitfalls? I?m only a hobby beekeeper with two hives I?ve had for about 3 years. I?ve had excluders in the whole time. Interested to hear your comments...

Note the list in response Robbo.. there is why "play nice" and "beekeeping is local" so
do not apply in advice for Aussie 'Keeps. When you find a frozen Queen the forum will
erupt with "farrrk iduntolya".

No more from me as I will be banned, again.

Bill

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Re: Hive inspection advice
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2017, 07:34:01 am »
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"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline little john

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Re: Hive inspection advice
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2017, 08:04:34 am »
Just want to stick my oar in here to remind people that there is at least one alternative to the use of metal grids to prevent the queen from laying in honey supers: a plywood sheet with fairly large holes made around the perimeter will do the job just as well.

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/excludertypes.html - second graphic from the bottom. 
And http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/beek15a.htm - second photograph from top. 

I found that these work perfectly - not recommended for queen-rearing perhaps, where more of a guarantee is required.  But if I were a honey farmer, that's what I would use - together with access holes cut into every super, to save the bees having to make a long trek through the hive.

LJ
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Offline herbhome

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Re: Hive inspection advice
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2017, 12:01:04 pm »
lil John,

I have looked at these on the cushman site and they look like an interesting alternative. I wonder if this would make it difficult for bees to control humidity when curing the honey?
Neill

Offline eltalia

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Re: Hive inspection advice
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2017, 06:06:21 pm »
lil John,

I have looked at these on the cushman site and they look like an interesting
alternative. I wonder if this would make it difficult for bees to control humidity
when curing the honey?

Not having seen Mr. Cushman's concept I can only say where the design
facilitates ventilation there is an an enhanced outcome in using a solid
QX. Some clue as to why that is can be found in noting the action of the
bees at times in propolising the punched QX up, closing large sections of
them. Not so much on welded wire excluders and so -  in my experience - a fault.

Much of the conflicting views on QX use can be easily tested in one's own yard.
Indeed in doing so it may become clear as to how (when) to deploy them and
pull them.

Bill