Top entrances - brood nest structure

[Duane]

I'm using top entrances and with one hive I had already swapped the brood nest which was in the top box onto the bottom.  Now I see there is brood in the top box. 

I'm wondering that the entrance being in the top is causing the bees to move the brood towards the entrance?  And if I swap them back, will that just cause them more work and delay in rearranging it back the way they want?  I experienced last year that some died even with honey below them, so I'm wondering what I should do here.  Do I trick them at the last minute before it turns real cold?  Last year, I had thought I had more time to inspect them but it turned cold suddenly.

[TheHoneyPump]

Your climate is a major factor of where in the box the bees will want to bee.  Mild or temperate, they generally will be in the bottom without much concern or effort on your part to have it that way.  In a cold harsher place (North) like where I am, they will setup to be wherever is the warmest and least amount of walking distance to the entrance, they will try to be in the top if there is an entrance up there.
Yes, bees do like to have brood near the entrance that they are using.
I used to see similar with the bees in the top when I expected or wanted them in the bottom. Warm air rises. As the temperatures drop the bees move to bee where that warm air goes to conserve energy and to reduce walking distance to the entrance to cleanse. A top entrance funnels warm air up and out.  So that is where they will want to be. With no top entrance the bees fan to circulate fresh air from the bottom entrance so the bottom box stays warm. They also want to stay close to the active entrance so they stay down there.
For these reasons I now wait as long as possible before putting the top entrance (vent) in place for winter. Doing so tends to keep them planted in the bottom box near the bottom entrance.  They will fill out the top frames with honey and syrup fed. When I do finally put the top entrance, it is when it is full on cold. My Purpose of of the top hole is not intended for bees to use but for a vent to release moisture and stale air once it is cold enough that the bees are tight into their winter cluster and they are not fanning anymore. At that point they are also slow and Reluctant to put energy into moving the nest. I keep the vent small.  3/4 inch wide 1/2 inch high at the very most.
Sounds like perhaps you are just allowing the top entrance too soon too early. Try waiting.
Suggestion If weather and time permits:   Get into the hive.  Put all brood in centre of bottom box.   Border it with the emptiest frames.  In the top box in the centre put three frames that are mostly full, capped honey, and with much pollen.  Fill the rest of the top box with heaviest capped honey frames. Put the honey against those three middle ones and work outwards, having the lighter honey frames that are left to be on the outside edges. It will take them 2 weeks to rearrange the bottom a bit and adjust to your manipulation.
Put it all together that way.  Feed thick syrup if they need more stores.  Do not flip the top board to open top entrance until it is REALLY full on winter.  And it is not winter until the temperature is steady below freezing every day and the snow and ice are accumulating.  Wait as long as possible.

If you are in a warmer climate where it does not freeze much, really ... you do not have a winter.  You just have a long dearth. Likely do not need top entrances at all then.

Hope that helps!

[Hops Brewster]

I use top entrances on all my hives.  I let the bees choose where to arrange things, especially going into winter.  They know more about bees than I do.

[BeeMaster2]

I use top and bottom entrances on most of my hives. The brood nest is usually in the bottom 2 or 3 medium boxes. Only during a heavy flow do they move up above that.
Jim

[Duane]

First, I only have top entrances. 
I think some of my boxes have brood in the bottom.  But some have moved it up to the top.

As far as letting the bees choose, last year I did that and some starved to death with food nearby.  Of course, one did with food right above them, so sometimes other things enter in.  And maybe there's some genetics thing with some at the top and some at the bottom?

Should I just leave it, or do kind of what TheHoneyPump suggested, change it right before it gets cold.  Or maybe if I had capped food, move that to the top and they will leave that alone?

[Michael Bush]

>I'm using top entrances and with one hive I had already swapped the brood nest which was in the top box onto the bottom.  Now I see there is brood in the top box.

For 30 years I had bottom entrances and the bees always spent the winter in the top box.  For the last 14 years I've had top entrances and they still spend the winter in the top box...

[blackforest beekeeper]

>I'm using top entrances and with one hive I had already swapped the brood nest which was in the top box onto the bottom.  Now I see there is brood in the top box.

For 30 years I had bottom entrances and the bees always spent the winter in the top box.  For the last 14 years I've had top entrances and they still spend the winter in the top box...

So I would say: Either You need to feed more - which You obviously dont nee?d to, or the bottom-box is simply unnecessary.

[Duane]

>I'm using top entrances and with one hive I had already swapped the brood nest which was in the top box onto the bottom.  Now I see there is brood in the top box.

For 30 years I had bottom entrances and the bees always spent the winter in the top box.  For the last 14 years I've had top entrances and they still spend the winter in the top box...

I just got our club newsletter telling that we need to make sure our bees are in the bottom box. 

I keep thinking about this and just want to understand clearly.  Your bees spend the winter in the top box.  They don't move up from the bottom box.  So do they move the food in the bottom up to the top where they are at?  Or as blackforest suggested, your bees don't need the bottom box?

I'm kind of at a confused point.  I hear some telling me to switch them to the bottom.  I have on at least two which switched themselves back to the top.  However, I'm using top entrances and they are using bottoms.  And past years showed my bees starving with food under them.  However, maybe they needed more food or it was just a happen chance.

So I guess to help my decision, is to know what your bees do with your bottom box through the winter?

[TheHoneyPump]

So I guess to help my decision, is to know what your bees do with your bottom box through the winter?



I have the same question.  What is thought to be going on in the bottom box over the winter in Mr Bush hives?

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Mr. Duane: you have attracted advice from some very knowledgeable beeks above, every single one has texted good advice on this forum.  Good to listen to the fellas.

In my hives, thermal imagining and my own optical camera lets me view inside the hive without opening.  The camera is WiFi to my iPhone TESLONG ENDOSCOPE.

So in North Arkansas, just south of you, my bees begin cluster in lower hive next to brood and Honey frames.  As winter progresses my bees move up to the top box upon frames of honey directly above the cluster.  The bees remain in top box until Spring warmth.  I use bottom entrance, restricted from mice 1/4 by 4 inch opening.  I use a top winter board with fondant for food and burlap for moisture.  Much like your pic.  The vent may be open or sealed by the bees.  If the vent becomes sealed then I must check the burlap for moisture every 2 weeks or so.

In Fed. I will feed syrup thru the winter board as temp warms.  Now this works for me,I have zero experience with top entrance, so take advice from those that do.  Normal coldest days are single digits, here, seldom below zero F.

The endoscope is cool, the camera is on a 18 inch flex cable so I can place the lighted lens all the way to the top box from the hive entrance.  I need 3/8 inch opening for the hive entrance so I remove the mouse guards for a look into the hive.  The cluster of bees is not alarmed, they are to cold.
Blessings

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Pic of my endoscope.

[Michael Bush]

>So I guess to help my decision, is to know what your bees do with your bottom box through the winter?

Eat the honey on warm days.  Rearrange the honey on warm days.

[blackforest beekeeper]

>So I guess to help my decision, is to know what your bees do with your bottom box through the winter?

Eat the honey on warm days.  Rearrange the honey on warm days.

So: When You have an upper entrance (and only an upper entrance), they store the honey in the lower box?
But You said, 14 years ago You had a lower entrance and they spent the winter in the upper box anyway. In my experience this would only happen if there was ample room of empty cells in the upper box. And usually that is where the honey is, so the lower box would be empty, too. Unless You swapped them just prior to winter. A medium 8 frame with enough room for the winter-cluster either doesn`t contain very much honey or not very many bees.
Please do explain.

[TheHoneyPump]

Perhaps in a more temperate region, ... one may take a perspective that bottom box is a great hive stand for what is effectively wintering in singles, in the upper box. A box underneath the bees may also be great way to store extra boxes and combs without having to haul them back to the shop for the winter and have to haul it back out in the spring.  It seems a win-win-win situation with less work, if you have the climate for it.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beestopentrance.htm

[blackforest beekeeper]

Perhaps in a more temperate region, ... one may take a perspective that bottom box is a great hive stand for what is effectively wintering in singles, in the upper box. A box underneath the bees may also be great way to store extra boxes and combs without having to haul them back to the shop for the winter and have to haul it back out in the spring.  It seems a win-win-win situation with less work, if you have the climate for it.

in some climates mold (mould?) might become a problem.
I have (first time!) taken care of a few boxes that way, too in my hobbyist-setup near the house.

I assume that the combs unused and with all the debris from the winter-cluster might get sort of dirty during the time. Don`t really know as lacking experiences with that. If the bees can run around the hive regularly, this will probably pose no problem.

[Michael Bush]

>So: When You have an upper entrance (and only an upper entrance), they store the honey in the lower box?

No.  They store honey above the brood nest.  But when cold weather sets in they move up to the top box regardless.

>But You said, 14 years ago You had a lower entrance and they spent the winter in the upper box anyway.

Correct.

> In my experience this would only happen if there was ample room of empty cells in the upper box. And usually that is where the honey is, so the lower box would be empty, too.

They seem to move things around when winter sets in.

> Unless You swapped them just prior to winter.

I don't swap boxes.  Not for winter or spring.

> A medium 8 frame with enough room for the winter-cluster either doesn`t contain very much honey or not very many bees.

I used to run ten frame deeps.  It makes no difference.  They move to the top box.  If the cluster is large, then they are in the top two boxes (in the case of eight frame mediums).
Please do explain.