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Offline van from Arkansas

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Arkansas, 50% hive loss past year.
« on: April 03, 2019, 04:59:33 pm »
I had the State Bee Inspector for Arkansas inspect my hives yesterday, 04/02/2019.  All went well at my site and a health permit was issued.

However the inspector informed me of a state wide loss of 50 percent attributed to Varroa.  One new beekeeper purchased 40 hives and lost ALL 40 this past March.  He did not treat nor paid any attention to natural small cell, that is the new beekeeper made no attempt to educate himself on bees and pest thereof.  The inspector was frustrated at all the new beekeepers that made little or no attempt to study and learn about honeybees.

I have know the inspector for years, an easy going fella, and I have never seen the fella so frustrated at the loss of so many hives all over the state.  The inspector told me:  Folks just want to buy bees, a flow hive, turn a tap then walla BEAUTIFUL HONEY.  These flow hives are misleading folks.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2019, 05:17:06 pm by van from Arkansas »
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline paus

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Re: Arkansas, 50% hive loss past year.
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2019, 05:13:50 pm »
I said almost the exact words this AM over coffee with my great wife.  No she will not read this .  I said that "many people want to keep bees and go out and turn on the faucet when they want honey on hot biscuits".  As I scooped some creamed honey on my biscuits.

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Re: Arkansas, 50% hive loss past year.
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2019, 12:17:31 am »
For me personally, researching is like breathing, vital and automatic. As a result, I can?t stand it when people don?t do their research beforehand, especially about something like beekeeping. How can a person think that they can handle dealing with and caring for thousands of stinging insects when they can?t even tell a bee from a wasp!?  And with the internet today, there is almost nothing you can?t find out and most people just don?t care to know. It both shocks and appalls me. I was talking to one of the staff members at a bee store down in South Carolina a few months ago, and she said she?s had people come to pick up packages of bees who then ask her, ?So I guess I need to buy a box to put them in at home, right??   :angry:
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Arkansas, 50% hive loss past year.
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2019, 09:32:40 am »
So the 50% loss is do to newbies not knowing what they are doing or established beekeepers?
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Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Arkansas, 50% hive loss past year.
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2019, 10:11:13 am »
Loss due to Varroa cause  newbies not doing anything to rid mites.  The newbies made no attempt to learn bees.
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline gww

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Re: Arkansas, 50% hive loss past year.
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2019, 11:28:06 am »
I am pretty new.  i am starting my fourth spring/summer.  I have ten hives and don't treat.  I have lost one swarm that never built up in all that time.  I have no doubt that mites kill some hives.  I think there are other ways to also kill hives.  I know some who have lost hives.  I don't know why they lost them, mine don't die yet.  Mites apparently do not kill all hives and so maybe that is the cause and maybe that is not the whole story.

It is good that a person can feel good about himself when doing so much better then somebody else but I often wonder if it is always smarts that are the real cause of the why it happens.  Lots of things go on with bees and due to that, we may be knowing the real cause of the problem or we may only be pointing out one contributing factor that does not tell the whole story.  I have heard of people keeping bees in the same way in two places with one of those places doing much better then the other and no seen reason being easy enough to see to explain why.
Just saying.
Cheers
gww

Offline blackforest beekeeper

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Re: Arkansas, 50% hive loss past year.
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2019, 11:33:54 am »
in my experience Varroa is the number one reason for hive deaths. know how to deal with varroa, most hives will make it. the remainder of losses is due to queen failure mainly. mostly due to purely bred queens.
AFB I never encountered.

Offline Acebird

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Re: Arkansas, 50% hive loss past year.
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2019, 08:51:34 am »
Loss due to Varroa cause  newbies not doing anything to rid mites.  The newbies made no attempt to learn bees.
It is a question of statistics Van.  In most states newbies have an insignificant number of hives compared to veteran beekeepers.  So if the loss is 50% state wide then the veteran beekeepers are losing them in very high numbers.  So is Arkansas's hive loss at 50% or not?  If so rethink the problem instead of pointing fingers.
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Offline blackforest beekeeper

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Re: Arkansas, 50% hive loss past year.
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2019, 09:28:20 am »
a newbie with 40 hives overdid himself, I`d say. I couldn`t have handled them in the beginning.

Offline Live Oak

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Re: Arkansas, 50% hive loss past year.
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2019, 12:01:01 pm »
Unfortunately and sadly, those numbers don't sound far off the mark in my opinion.  Similar losses I believe are mounting in Tennessee.  Early Spring is the most dangerous time of the year for our beehives due to a number of factors but these factors are heavily compounded if the hives make it into Spring in very weak and unhealthy condition. 

In my opinion  mites, that are continuously being incorrectly treated for late Fall & Winter survial by insisting upon using varroa mite treatments that treat and are effective on phoretic mites only as opposed to employing treatments that kill the reproductive/foundress varroa mites. 

Other factors that are causing these Winter losses and weakenings such as tracheal mites.  Most beekeepers do not treat for tracheal mites.  They are very difficult to detect visually until K-wing virus starts effecting the bees. 

Another big factor is beekeepers are NOT checking their hives on a frequent enough basis to ensure the hives have adequate food resources that are in contact with the cluster. 

Although I am sure many will argue the point of whether or not hive insulation is necessary, it has been my experience that properly insulated hives have a much higher survival rate than those that are not insulated.  Beehives in which the internal temperatures are stabilized from dipping below approximately 35 - 40 degrees F, the bees will still cluster up but are able to move around inside the hive to access food resources inside the hive that may not be in contact with the cluster.  Once the internal hive temperature drops much below approximately 35 - 40 degrees F, the bees typically will NOT break out of the cluster.  If food resources are not in contact with the cluster, the bees will starve and then freeze to death in many cases. 

Lastly, many beekeepers insist upon carrying their beehive into the Winter in double and triple deep brood box configuration.  This is far too much space for the cluster to occupy and keep at a suitable temperature.  Even if the cluster is large enough to do this, they typically consume large amounts of food resources to do this and if not closely monitored to remove empty brood boxes as food resources are consumed and adding food resources as needed, will again run up against the issue of starvation and freezing to death. 

In early Spring as hives begin to brood up, leaving the hive insulation on until any danger of sudden freezes can help to significantly reduce hive losses due to sudden late hard freezes like we had last April in the 3rd week.  Once the hive has a significant amount of brood present, the bees will NOT cluster up in the event of a sudden hard freeze and will sacrifice themselves to protect the brood typically ending with the entire hive lost over night.  Even the largest and strongest hives are susceptible to this.  Ask how I know???  :oops:

As to the issue of the Flow Hive.  In my opinion, they sound good and the video's look good but then I think about how well these Flow Hives will hold up over several seasons with the bee propolizing them and the bugs that may get into them while in storage over the Winter, not to mention the prohibitively high cost.  I think I'll stick with the conventional honey super. 

Anyway........that's my humble 2 cents worth on this.   :happy:

Offline AR Beekeeper

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Re: Arkansas, 50% hive loss past year.
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2019, 12:14:13 pm »
I belong to two beekeepers associations in north Arkansas and it looks more like 10 to 15% among beekeepers with 20 or more colonies and 5+ years experience.  One beekeeper, this was his first overwinter, lost all 7 of his colonies the first week in March.  His description sounded like it was classic starvation/robbing with all 7. 

Offline CoolBees

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Re: Arkansas, 50% hive loss past year.
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2019, 01:12:46 pm »
... In most states newbies have an insignificant number of hives compared to veteran beekeepers.  So if the loss is 50% state wide then the veteran beekeepers are losing them in very high numbers.  So is Arkansas's hive loss at 50% or not?  If so rethink the problem instead of pointing fingers.

Good point.
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Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Arkansas, 50% hive loss past year.
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2019, 02:40:12 pm »
Live oak,
Quote: Other factors that are causing these Winter losses and weakenings such as tracheal mites.  Most beekeepers do not treat for tracheal mites.  They are very difficult to detect visually until K-wing virus starts effecting the bees. 

When was the last time that you had tracheal mites in significant numbers to bother a hive. Our state does not see them any more. It think Pennsylvania is the same. The bees have the genetics to stop them cold.

My father in law used to have to deal with them 20 years ago in Pennsylvania but that was not a problem when he started raising bees 5 years ago and until the day he died last year.
Jim Altmiller
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Offline Live Oak

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Re: Arkansas, 50% hive loss past year.
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2019, 04:17:20 pm »
Live oak,
Quote: Other factors that are causing these Winter losses and weakenings such as tracheal mites.  Most beekeepers do not treat for tracheal mites.  They are very difficult to detect visually until K-wing virus starts effecting the bees. 

When was the last time that you had tracheal mites in significant numbers to bother a hive. Our state does not see them any more. It think Pennsylvania is the same. The bees have the genetics to stop them cold.

My father in law used to have to deal with them 20 years ago in Pennsylvania but that was not a problem when he started raising bees 5 years ago and until the day he died last year.
Jim Altmiller

They are back. 

https://www.ourcoop.com/ourcoop08/headlines/viewNews.aspx?artID=3715

They are covered towards the middle of the article.  Mike tells me that he is seeing much more than a few cases in Tennessee. 

Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Arkansas, 50% hive loss past year.
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2019, 08:19:59 pm »
Not good but I?m pretty sure our bees fixed this problem on their own through genetics. I wonder where the bees that have it came from.
Jim Altmiller
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Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Arkansas, 50% hive loss past year.
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2019, 11:20:50 pm »
Live Oak thanks for the article

Tennessee experiences 80 percent hive loss past 12 months.  Article states one of the biggest problems is YouTube.
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline Acebird

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Re: Arkansas, 50% hive loss past year.
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2019, 09:27:01 am »
I belong to two beekeepers associations in north Arkansas and it looks more like 10 to 15% among beekeepers with 20 or more colonies and 5+ years experience. 

Now add the significance to the number... How many hives are owned by this group compared what is outside this group and the number might rise to 15.1%.  I don't think any state has reached 50% loss.  This is just finger pointing. 
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Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Arkansas, 50% hive loss past year.
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2019, 06:11:00 pm »
Ace, I doubt Tennessee has 80 percent loss, however that is what the article printed.
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline Acebird

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Re: Arkansas, 50% hive loss past year.
« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2019, 09:54:44 am »
Ace, I doubt Tennessee has 80 percent loss, however that is what the article printed.
Yeah, taste a little salty.
I get an internal laughter when people point to the internet as a source of misinformation like it was created on the internet.  Misinformation existed forever in print whether it is a book, newspaper or any other form of printed material including the bible.  How many times have to heard of a "study" or research that says one thing and then another that says the exact opposite?  Video is a little bit more conclusive but even that can be faked.
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Offline herbhome

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Re: Arkansas, 50% hive loss past year.
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2019, 03:09:05 pm »
Van,

I read an article a little while back, (I can't find it at this time), that stated the Coy family was moving all the hives out of the state due to unacceptable losses they blame on dicamba. They've operated in the Jonesboro area for years. I'm unaware of their hive count , but maybe some of those reported losses are for the same reasons.
Neill

Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Arkansas, 50% hive loss past year.
« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2019, 03:41:30 pm »
Hi Herb, neighbor.  I am in a non agricultural area, due to rocky soil, Ozark Mtn.  Just south of me, say 30-40 miles is farm country......lots of dicamba, 2,4-D, glyphosate.  I am sure the herbicides cause damage, but how much is the question.  I dunno??

Herbhome, if you find the COY article I would like to read.  It you are ever near Mtn. Home, come visit.  I?ll show you some beautiful bees, and share bread.
Blessings
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

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Offline Acebird

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Re: Arkansas, 50% hive loss past year.
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2019, 09:08:23 am »
The article claims 50% loss of production not hive loss.  But this proves my point, why point the finger at a newbie when there is clearly a poison problem on commercial bees?
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Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Arkansas, 50% hive loss past year.
« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2019, 10:25:14 am »
Ace, I was stating the words of the State Bee Inspector.  Reread my post.  State Inspector stated NEWBEES, not me.

Later Herbhome added Dicamba article.
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline gww

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Re: Arkansas, 50% hive loss past year.
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2019, 01:02:40 pm »
Van
I also took it sorta as you agreeing with the state inspector statement by your inclusion of the flow hive statements as being supportive evidence.  But if you are in disagreement with his position?  I am all ears.  Ask with good intention but possibly a different outlook on things.
Cheers and well wishes.
gww

Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Arkansas, 50% hive loss past year.
« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2019, 02:40:08 pm »
GWW, I know only a few locals, they are experienced: including myself between 10 percent to 20 percent local hive loss is what I see with my eyes.  The hives were treated for mites.  My ears hear the inspector and I repeated what I was told That was 50 percent.

I did not include the treatment free hives I purchased last year, all 5 died, they were not treated and had plenty of stores.  So these 5 dead hives are not included in percent above.



 
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline gww

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Re: Arkansas, 50% hive loss past year.
« Reply #26 on: April 09, 2019, 03:35:16 pm »
Van
Point taken.  I probably have a bit of a tilted view myself.  I have ten untreated hives and have been at it for a few years and lost nothing really.  I only know one other bee keeper and don't know exactly how he does.  I have been to about 5 bee club meetings in all this time and listen there.  I was told about a few people around me that each lost 4 of four of there first hives over this time.  So, I only hear peripherally about those around me and only see what I see.  I can not understand with what I see, why those others hives died. 

I do a lot of reading on these forums.  My personal experience (so far and knock on wood) is that bees just don't die.  I may have a horrible year some day and that, in my mind is to be expected as a possibility when dealing with live things.  I grew up on a little 80 acre farm and dying is a part of living when keeping live things.

I do know from what few problems I have seen that lots of things have cause and effect and it is not easy to see the real chain of events that really caused problems.

The one little hive I had die in all this time was being robbed from day one but never killed outright till winter.  I know the human error that was involved in that.  I put a leaky feeder on it when I hived it and again later.  That explains the attention I drew to it but I have made that mistake with other hives and the robbing eventually quit.  I always get robbing going when I pull honey.  So why did the robbing not quit on this hive and why did the robbing never get the queen killed?  I can think of lots of factors that could have contributed.   
Hive never getting to critical mass due to the robbing?  disease?  Mites?  Loss of resource due to latent robbing not allowing the hive to expand.  My opinion was that it was a perfect storm of several little things put together with no one thing being enough by itsself being enough to do it in. 

So when I look at things, I look at what is possible good and bad.  I know bees in the right conditions live quite well with mites. (yes I am sure we have mites).  I also know that lots of people lose hives with mites being a contributing factor.  I am not calling anyone a liar cause they know for themselves what they see just like I know for myself what I see.

I do think that broad stroke statements that pigeon hole the answer down to only one thing is not a broad enough view when I can see with my own eyes the possibilities.

I have no ideal why my neighbors hives died and mine did not.  I do know of people having bees in more then one place and treated similarly and getting different results and not knowing the reasons for sure.

I do believe it is not impossible that I might have very big losses come one year.  I know of a treater that lost 80 percent one year and it was not repeated the next year and had not happened the years before.  Live things are always a risk.  Nature of the beast.

I only have my personal experience and am not willing to doubt others personal experiences.

I believe them when they tell me what happened.  I don't always believe the conclusions of why something happened even on my own stuff cause it is pretty complicated on all the things that could have some impact.  There is just so much that can be read wrong or missed.  I have read a ton of studies and they mostly conclude that more study is needed.  I believe them cause we would not all have this wide range of experiences if the answers were all known.

I do not discount your experience that I have no doubt that you know more about then me.

I don't doubt my experience but am willing to say that luck could be a big part of the picture.

I see the possibilities of all and know very few answers.  I don't have the answers for my neighbors but am sorry for their losses.
Cheers
gww

Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Arkansas, 50% hive loss past year.
« Reply #27 on: April 09, 2019, 04:12:32 pm »
GWW, what a great post. 

Robbing:  Yes, we have all experience robbing.  In July and August I try not to open hives but if a problem presents itself I open the hive in the evening and try not to wave honey frames or spill.

Dead Outs:  to me colony collapse disorder, CCD,  does not have an answer as to why the hive died. The name implies to me a dead hive for unknown reason.

Experience: to me, one?s learning is an independent factor with data observed and interpreted based on preexperiences.  Simply put, some beeks learn amazingly fast.  One of the smartest men i knew had an eight grade education whereas everyday, I worked with PhD level scienctist that some were flat out ignorant.  Smart is independent of education!! I started with honeybees in the 1960?s but I can assure a person there are beeks with decades less experience that are superior in Bee knowledge compared to myself.

Dead hives:  this will always bother me, WHY, WHAT I DO WRONG?  I always inspect a deadout, even with a stereo microscope sometimes.  I look at mites for chew marks, food stores, mold, water signs, number of dead bees, head in or clustered, etc.  Seldom can I say exact cause with any degree of certainty due to so many factors.  What is weird is when young, I never lost a hive, only kept 3.  But back when I was young, no mites, no beetles, no herbicide, little pesticides, no nothing except thriving bees.
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline blackforest beekeeper

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Re: Arkansas, 50% hive loss past year.
« Reply #28 on: April 09, 2019, 04:14:16 pm »
GWW, what a great post. 

Robbing:  Yes, we have all experience robbing.  In July and August I try not to open hives but if a problem presents itself I open the hive in the evening and try not to wave honey frames or spill.

Dead Outs:  to me colony collapse disorder, CCD,  does not have an answer as to why the hive died. The name implies to me a dead hive for unknown reason.

Experience: to me, one?s learning is an independent factor with data observed and interpreted based on preexperiences.  Simply put, some beeks learn amazingly fast.  One of the smartest men i knew had an eight grade education whereas everyday, I worked with PhD level scienctist that some were flat out ignorant.  Smart is independent of education!! I started with honeybees in the 1960?s but I can assure a person there are beeks with decades less experience that are superior in Bee knowledge compared to myself.

Dead hives:  this will always bother me, WHY, WHAT I DO WRONG?  I always inspect a deadout, even with a stereo microscope sometimes.  I look at mites for chew marks, food stores, mold, water signs, number of dead bees, head in or clustered, etc.  Seldom can I say exact cause with any degree of certainty due to so many factors.  What is weird is when young, I never lost a hive, only kept 3.

when did Varroa creep up on you``?

Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Arkansas, 50% hive loss past year.
« Reply #29 on: April 09, 2019, 04:57:36 pm »
BlackForest Beekeeper, that was long ago.  Back then the word HYGENIC was used frequently and so was powdered sugar.  Today the word HYGENIC is still used, frequently advertised also.

In the 1990?s Killer bees was thought as no big deal by most INCLUDING ME.  I was certain, like a no brainer, the aggressiveness would dilute on the long journey to the USA.  Brother was I wrong, And folks died to the killer bees.  Off subject, maybe a little, my point is I am grey haired; I am not so confident and understand NATURE is way beyond my comprehension. Therefore, honeybees continue to teach me, along with some beeks on this forum.
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline gww

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Re: Arkansas, 50% hive loss past year.
« Reply #30 on: April 09, 2019, 06:39:29 pm »
Van
My hair is going white instead of gray.  I am so glad that I do not have to experience killer bees here yet cause I am still a little scared of the plain ones.  I make my best guess on a dead out and will autopsy hard if I get one.  The only thing I know about nature is that I don't "know" much.  Just do the best I can.  I never saw a bee hive in real life till about 4 years ago.
I love to sit and watch the entrances and guess about progress or lack of inside the hive.
I was so lost and received good help from these forums.  I am still lost and surprised all the time.
 
This is a hobby for me and not a business.  It gives me something that I can pretend is productive and do with out leaving home.

Your post was nice.
Cheers
gww

Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Arkansas, 50% hive loss past year.
« Reply #31 on: April 09, 2019, 09:32:51 pm »
GWW, I like to watch the entrance also, always have, since a kid I tell ya.

Notice the bees coming in loaded with nectar, abdomens fully extended.  The bees drag their abdomen they are so heavy with nectar and kinda crash land.

I have been told bees do not gather both pollen and nectar on the same trip.  Rather the bees choose one or the other.  I still don?t know if this is correct.  I have not seen a bee with a fully extended abdomen and pollen sacks on their legs at the same time.  What are your [forum beeks]thoughts?  Do bees carry both pollen and nectar at the same time???
Blessings
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline gww

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Re: Arkansas, 50% hive loss past year.
« Reply #32 on: April 09, 2019, 09:41:19 pm »
van
My eyes are not good enough to see the full belly and so I more go with how many don't make the landing board and have to land and then try again.  I did see a bee that was full of pollen do that.  Maybe it had both?  I don't know.  Best I can do is when they really get excited after not that much action.  I think I can tell when they get on something if it is strong.  It is usually a bad sigh when they start carrying a lot of water.  That is about the extent of my knowledge.
Cheers
gww

Offline CoolBees

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Re: Arkansas, 50% hive loss past year.
« Reply #33 on: April 09, 2019, 09:58:30 pm »
I don't know much, but I've watched bees up close, with half-loads of mustard pollen as they go from bloom to bloom on the decorative cherries and plums, sucking in nectar. ... mustard grows wild everywhere here and they use it heavily for pollen - bright yellow, easy to see. Are they just getting lunch? Or are they bringing the nectar back. I don't know.
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Re: Arkansas, 50% hive loss past year.
« Reply #34 on: April 09, 2019, 11:54:36 pm »
van
My eyes are not good enough to see the full belly and so I more go with how many don't make the landing board and have to land and then try again.  I did see a bee that was full of pollen do that.  Maybe it had both?  I don't know.  Best I can do is when they really get excited after not that much action.  I think I can tell when they get on something if it is strong.  It is usually a bad sigh when they start carrying a lot of water.  That is about the extent of my knowledge.
Cheers
gww

Why is it a bad sign for them to be carrying lots of water? 
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Offline blackforest beekeeper

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Re: Arkansas, 50% hive loss past year.
« Reply #35 on: April 10, 2019, 02:18:40 am »
I always thought they either collected pollen or honey. I will have a closer look.
But - as I understand it - don`t they need some honey to make a clump out of the pollen`???

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Re: Arkansas, 50% hive loss past year.
« Reply #36 on: April 10, 2019, 06:36:42 am »
If you watch a bee working a bunch of flowers, they will land on the flower, collect the nectar and then go airborne and with their legs, gather the pollen and pack it in the pollen baskets on their hind legs. The fact that they are returning to the hive with a light load of pollen is an indicator that they are carrying both. When I started out I was told that they only collect one item, water, nectar pollen or propolis. Some flowers only provide nectar and no significant amount of pollen, some only provide pollen but some provide both.
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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Arkansas, 50% hive loss past year.
« Reply #37 on: April 10, 2019, 08:48:44 am »
>Why is it a bad sign for them to be carrying lots of water?

It takes a frame of honey, a frame of pollen and a frame worth of water to raise a frame of brood.  They also need it to water down honey they eat and to cool the hive.  I don't consider it a bad sign.  It's a sign they are raising a lot of brood.
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Offline gww

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Re: Arkansas, 50% hive loss past year.
« Reply #38 on: April 10, 2019, 10:12:17 am »
michael
Quote
>Why is it a bad sign for them to be carrying lots of water?

It takes a frame of honey, a frame of pollen and a frame worth of water to raise a frame of brood.  They also need it to water down honey they eat and to cool the hive.  I don't consider it a bad sign.  It's a sign they are raising a lot of brood.

I always notice when the first flying days come and they break cluster for the first time, they gather lots of water.  Not bad.

When every bee is coming in with first pollen, they seem to gather lots of water. not bad.

Around the middle end of june when I see the bees start hitting the water hole hard, I usually figure the flow is over and it is not just heat causing them to gather water.  I always figure when I see that, bad.

In the spring they will be all over the ground and at all small places that have sitting water.  When they start hitting the bird bath or chicken water cause none is in the ground. bad

When there is heavy flow on earlier even if hot, I don't see them at the bird feeders.
I might not know what I am talking about but this is how it seems to me in the proper contexts that was in my mind when I wrote that statement.

Cheers
gww

Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Arkansas, 50% hive loss past year.
« Reply #39 on: April 10, 2019, 05:35:04 pm »
>Why is it a bad sign for them to be carrying lots of water?

It takes a frame of honey, a frame of pollen and a frame worth of water to raise a frame of brood.  They also need it to water down honey they eat and to cool the hive.  I don't consider it a bad sign.  It's a sign they are raising a lot of brood.

Let me do the math:

Deep frame of honey holds     8 pounds
Water                                   6 pounds
Pollen , my guess.                 4 pounds
Total.                                   18 pounds or 8,172 grams

Total bees                              7000

Equals: 1.16 grams per bee, which is very reasonable to me. Now who is the wise one to figure this out?  Good one Mr. Bush!!!

I should add, pollen at 4 pounds per frame is my GUESS.  Seldom, very rare, I see pollen stacked to the top of the cell such as honey.  Also the moisture content of pollen varies.  My guess might be a little heavy.
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Arkansas, 50% hive loss past year.
« Reply #40 on: April 10, 2019, 05:38:05 pm »
I didn't figure it out.  But I learned it.
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Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Arkansas, 50% hive loss past year.
« Reply #41 on: April 10, 2019, 05:45:45 pm »
Well I literally figured it out but I learned from you.  Ha ha
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.