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Author Topic: Guilty  (Read 866 times)

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Guilty
« Reply #20 on: April 24, 2021, 11:18:49 am »
> In general people who are poor make poor financial choices.  The last thing you want to do is give them money to make more poor choices.

Exactly! Especially when the government has been allowed to dummy down the educational system as we have seen demonstrated in the past 60 years or so. But isn't that just what your communist and marxist heros "say" they do? Take from the wealthy and give to the poor? The old Robin Hood theory basically?  Hum..  So which way is it Brian? I have a theory that your leader folks on the left do not care about anyone but themselves and use these dividing techniques, along with pretending to care, as their own greedy power hungry methods to divide and conquer good people of all persuasions? Leaving the spoils in their own lap. Yes Hum....
« Last Edit: April 24, 2021, 12:25:37 pm by Ben Framed »
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline Kathyp

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Re: Guilty
« Reply #21 on: April 24, 2021, 12:31:38 pm »
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In general people who are poor make poor financial choices.  The last thing you want to do is give them money to make more poor choices.

That's often true of people who stay poor.  It does not necessarily apply to young families.  I grew up in a home that I am sure was under the federal poverty level in income, especially when we were young.  When our kids were young, we were really poor.  As in digging in the couch for change for food, poor.  I guess you could make the case that having kids when you are young and poor is a bad financial decision, but we are kinda designed to do that.

Do you feel that trying to get your kids into a better school is a poor choice?  I don't think you understand how school choice would work.  It's not a cash handout.  It's a way for parents to pay for better schooling.  They don't get to just take the money and run.

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I feel there is no difference.  Having both is wasteful and results in variations between states and localities.

Yes it does.  That's the whole point, isn't it?

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It is because our standards are too low.  Exceptional kids go on to higher education when the family can support it.  The problem is many good brains are wasted because of economics.  Upper level education has become a business focusing more on income then achievement.

That's all true and it's getting worse.  In the name of equity, schools are getting rid of programs for gifted kids.  In the name of status, we send kids to college who shouldn't go. 
The fact is, we are not all equal.  Some people have higher IQs.  Some are more motivated in school.  Some like to tinker with cars.  Expecting equal effort and equal outcome is stupid.  Holding back kids who are exceptional so that they don't make others feel bad is stupid. 

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This sounds like a magnet school where the kids are bussed in.  Usually the kids are exceptional students.  I am all in for vocation schools that will actually teach a trade.  My issue is they become dumping grounds for bad apples.  Again the problem is standards.  If you don't have standards this will happen.

Nope.  The neighborhood high school.  Kids can attend from out of the district if they wish.

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That is your opinion.

Socialism has a definition.  Massive social welfare can lead to socialism as it did in Venezuela, but social welfare in western countries that don't overdo it, is supported by capitalism.  Public services (fire, police) are not social welfare.  I am not in favor of social welfare as it exists in this country.  It's one thing to have a short term safety net for when SH.  It's another to have it be a lifestyle choice, or to have the feds shoveling out my money so that people can stay home and not take the jobs offered, or sending money to states that states will then waste with no oversight.

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Although this is covid related you are citing variations in education between states.  So what side of the fence are you on?

I am on the side of choice.  in this case, my granddaughter could have been in school if they had sent her to a private school.  They were not closed.  Since they were moving, they waited.
If the public school system is working for kids, use it.  If it is not, you should have the choice to do something else and the funds to do it since the money is already allocated.

It's simple.  The money follows the student, not the school system.

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You think they are but they are not.
Do you think a cop, or firemen is an employee of each citizen?

They are and I do.  I think most Americans have forgotten this and certainly the elected politicians have. 

Re-read the Declaration of Independence.  As much as the Constitution is the law, the Declaration of Independence is the basis for that law.  Very few people seem to know what it says.  When I was in school, we had to memorize it, and for good reason.

 https://www.archives.gov/founding-docs/declaration-transcript   
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Kathyp

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Re: Guilty
« Reply #22 on: April 24, 2021, 12:37:37 pm »
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o which way is it Brian? I have a theory that your leader folks on the left do not care about anyone but themselves and use these dividing techniques, along with pretending to care, as their own greedy power hungry methods to divide and conquer good people of all persuasions? Leaving the spoils in their own lap.

The left requires that people need the stuff they offer.  If what you have to offer is stuff, you need people to need your stuff.  So yes, their interest is in keeping people in need, not helping people move up. 
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Acebird

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Re: Guilty
« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2021, 09:49:34 am »
So which way is it Brian? I have a theory that your leader folks on the left do not care about anyone but themselves and use these dividing techniques, along with pretending to care, as their own greedy power hungry methods to divide and conquer good people of all persuasions? Leaving the spoils in their own lap.
The country has just witnessed four years of that and it is totally oblivious to you.  There is no difference between a politician on the right or one on the left when it comes to self empowerment and pretending to care.  The right does it by supporting the rich and the left does it by expanding government.  The country needs a little of both not massive swings from one to the other.
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Guilty
« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2021, 10:24:30 am »
> The country has just witnessed four years of that and it is totally oblivious to you. 

Where have you been? Have you forgotten the previous 16 years of economic oppression by Dumb and Dumber?  I suppose you love it because you have thrown us right back into that downward spiral. Pitiful...
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline Acebird

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Re: Guilty
« Reply #25 on: April 25, 2021, 10:24:55 am »
I don't think you understand how school choice would work.  It's not a cash handout.  It's a way for parents to pay for better schooling.
If the money is coming from the government then the private school becomes a public school run for profit.  We have this in our medical care system and it is the pits.
Ace:
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I feel there is no difference.  Having both is wasteful and results in variations between states and localities.

Kathy:
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Yes it does.  That's the whole point, isn't it?
So the solution is to eliminate all the localities and states involvement and have it controlled by the federal government for the good of the whole country.  Like every other country in a world economy.

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It is because our standards are too low.  Exceptional kids go on to higher education when the family can support it.  The problem is many good brains are wasted because of economics.  Upper level education has become a business focusing more on income then achievement.

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In the name of equity, schools are getting rid of programs for gifted kids.
Maybe in some areas and that supports what I am saying.
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In the name of status, we send kids to college who shouldn't go. 
  That is not the crime.  The crime is they are not weeded out in the first semester.  Everyone should have the opportunity to go.  Not everyone should stay.
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Expecting equal effort and equal outcome is stupid.  Holding back kids who are exceptional so that they don't make others feel bad is stupid. 
Correct.  Who is in favor of that?

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Kids can attend from out of the district if they wish.
Then it is a magnet school.


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Public services (fire, police) are not social welfare.

No it isn't but how are these services supported by capitalism except for traffic tickets?
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I am not in favor of social welfare as it exists in this country.  It's one thing to have a short term safety net for when SH.  It's another to have it be a lifestyle choice, or to have the feds shoveling out my money so that people can stay home and not take the jobs offered, or sending money to states that states will then waste with no oversight.
Neither am I.

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If the public school system is working for kids, use it.  If it is not, you should have the choice to do something else and the funds to do it since the money is already allocated.
Fragmenting government systems only makes a bigger mess.  The government system will not go away and you will be supporting two or more dysfunctional systems.
It is not simple at all.

There is nothing in the constitution that says cops and firemen work for me.  I cannot fire the bad cops and replace them with good cops.  Neither can you.
However with a lot of effort we can get rid of a bad politician like we just did.
Brian Cardinal
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Offline Kathyp

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Re: Guilty
« Reply #26 on: April 25, 2021, 12:29:32 pm »
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If the money is coming from the government then the private school becomes a public school run for profit.  We have this in our medical care system and it is the pits.

That is a danger and it depends on how it is structured.  That's why to money goes with the student and not directly to any institution.  While the student can only use the money for education, the government is not paying the school.  It is allowing the student to used the tax dollars for the education they want.  That might seem like a distinction without a difference, but if it is done correctly it should solve your issue. 

If we were not already so deeply in bed with the feds on education this could be done state by state as things are supposed to be done and we'd have a chance to experiment with ways to make it work well.

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So the solution is to eliminate all the localities and states involvement and have it controlled by the federal government for the good of the whole country.  Like every other country in a world economy.

1st you assume that the federal government has your best interest at heart.  What is your evidence that they would do anything for the good of the whole country?

The EU would be a good current example of what happens when you take independent states and try to rule them with one government.

The desire to be ruled is a consistent desire of the left.  I think it comes from laziness.  It is much easier to have someone telling you how it will be than it is to participate and tell the people you hired what they will do.  The Republic is messy.  Central rule is easier. 

After the fall of the USSR there were quite a few Russians who longed for the old Communist rule.  Why?  It was predictable.  Don't say certain things.  Don't do certain things.  Line up for bread on Thursday and cultivate your black market contacts for other stuff.  Not a great life, but also not a life that requires you to do or be anything.

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No it isn't but how are these services supported by capitalism except for traffic tickets?

You might not pay them, but there's this thing called taxes.  Taxes are paid on income and investments that are earned, most of the time, through capitalist endeavors. 

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There is nothing in the constitution that says cops and firemen work for me.  I cannot fire the bad cops and replace them with good cops.  Neither can you.
However with a lot of effort we can get rid of a bad politician like we just did.

It's not a constitutional issue at the local and state level.  You DO hire the people who oversee those institutions.  The mayor of Portland is the police commissioner.  If the people of Portland keep putting him in office along with the nutters on the city council, they deserve what they get.  They don't support the police and have taken money from them.  If Portland burns, the people who put those folks in office can sift the ashes.

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Fragmenting government systems only makes a bigger mess. 

Messy isn't always bad.  Competition is good.  Public schools don't have to compete for students or dollars. 
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Acebird

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Re: Guilty
« Reply #27 on: April 26, 2021, 09:38:40 am »
That might seem like a distinction without a difference, but if it is done correctly it should solve your issue. 
I don't see any way for accountability on an individual basis.
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If we were not already so deeply in bed with the feds on education this could be done state by state as things are supposed to be done and we'd have a chance to experiment with ways to make it work well.
If the states could make it work well they would have already.  Florida is a prime example.  Retirees coming in to the state by the thousands could care less about supporting schools.  Working people moving to the state don't even consider public schools in FL.  I have friends that pay 20 grand a year, per child for pre school out of their own pocket.  There is too much variation between states and too much inequality at the local level.  Abolish school taxes based on property value and make it an income tax at the federal level.

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1st you assume that the federal government has your best interest at heart.  What is your evidence that they would do anything for the good of the whole country?
Do you feel the same about the military budget?  Amazing that a country could care so much for the military and could care less about education and health care.  We loose every matched we get into with all our military might.  Maybe we could concentrate on education and healthcare and turn that downward spiral around.

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The EU would be a good current example of what happens when you take independent states and try to rule them with one government.
They are not independent states they are independent countries.  The EU should be compared to NATO and the United Nations.


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After the fall of the USSR there were quite a few Russians who longed for the old Communist rule.

I know a lot of refugees that came from the USSR.  They didn't leave because of Communism they left because of corruption the same corruption they have with the so called democracy they have today.  I will guarantee you they are not lazy.  They came here with nothing and worked their way up the ladder.  Today they are living the American dream.
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You might not pay them, but there's this thing called taxes.  Taxes are paid on income and investments that are earned, most of the time, through capitalist endeavors.

Florida at this point doesn't have state income tax.  That is why people come here. It is not for the hurricanes!  Florida gets revenue from sales tax from people out of state who come here and blow money around the beaches and Disney World.  That is why the doofus didn't close the boarder and gave the vaccines  that were in short supply to out of staters first.  I wonder if the voters will remember that.  With republicans it is all about the money.

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The mayor of Portland is the police commissioner.  If the people of Portland keep putting him in office along with the nutters on the city council, they deserve what they get.
So local politics is great for the country's educational system or not?  Which is it?
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Public schools don't have to compete for students or dollars.
I don't think you know much about how schools are run, what their budgetary process is and how they compete.  You are just one of those whiny parents who wants to use money as influence for everything.  Not good at all for those less fortunate.  And definitely not good for the country as a whole.
Brian Cardinal
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