Reasons why my hive is swarming?

[Bob Wilson]

I need advice before tomorrow.
Hive A swarmed 3/8. I caught them and put them into Hive B.
Hive B swarmed 4/21. I suppose that to be the original queen, but I lost the swarm.
Hive B swarmed again 4/26 (today). I have caught this one, and pretty sure I got the queen. I suppose the mass of bees in the picture below are the 10% of the swarm bees I missed, which are now returning back to hive B.
My question is this. When I open up hive B tomorrow, what specifically should I look for?
I have seen no pests, although I have not tested for mites. Should I go through the entire hive inspecting, even though there might be a virgin queen inside? Should I rearrange the hive, making sure there is no backfill honey barrier? I assume after two swarms, I need to restrict space before beetle season gets going strong.

[cao]

Today's swarm should be an after swarm with a virgin queen.  So when you look into the hive that they came from(hive B), you could still find queen cells but probably they will be torn down at least partially.  You could still have multiple queens if they are wanting to swarm again. 


I would do a quick check of the hive to see if I find multiple queens/queen cells.  If I find them then I could do another split or dispatch the extras.  I would check for room.  Add or subtract what is necessary.  I would not assume that after 2 swarms you need to restrict the space.  It might just now be the right size.  Then I would close them up and leave them alone for at least 2 weeks.

Or the other option is just leave them alone to sort things out and check on them in two weeks.

[BeeMaster2]

Bob,
The first thing I would do is put my ear to that hive and listen for queens piping. If you hear them, you probably have 10 to 20 queens in that hive that are ready to take the next swarm.
I will look for the article that I posted on what to todo with this hive.
Jim Altmiller

[BeeMaster2]

Here it is.
Queens piping
If you hear queens piping, that means that the bees are holding the queens in there cells so that they can super swarm (swarm over and over again). When this is allowed to happen, there is a good chance that the original hive will not survive.
Smoke the hive lightly wait 10 minutes, find at least 10 to 15 queen cages,  smoke again lightly, wait 30 seconds and then slowly inspect every frame and carefully open the queen cells. Place the queens in the cages. Go through the entire hive and find every Q cell. Pick the best one and put it back in the hive. If it is a very large hive you can make up a couple of splits. If you disturb the bees too much, they will stop tending to keep the queens in the cells and the queens will all hatch out in mass. If that happens, work fast to catch them all.
Have a small jar of alcohol ready to put any dead queens into. Use the alcohol for swarm traps.
Good luck.
I learned this from my observation hive swarming over and over. I open it on the third swarm and found 10 queens and I missed the one that ended up killing the marked one that I put back in the hive.
Jim Altmiller

[TheHoneyPump]

Long top bar hive or 10F langstroth?

[Bob Wilson]

HoneyPump. 32 frame long langstroth

[TheHoneyPump]

OK, thanks for clarifying.  Yeah, I cannot really help with that. 
All I can say is my observation in my hives that the queen tends to like to max out her nest at 6 frames wide, when that threshold is reached she really seeks to go up or down to framespace above or below.  If she cannot go up or down, she shows me signs of not liking it and making preparations towards getting ready to take off.
I do not know how that would interpret or translate into handling and manipulating a long hive.
Perhaps look for that gauge of nest size. Be prepared to split, cut down, the nest. Taking away all the brood to other hives or nucs, leaving her only 2 or 3 frames of brood. Then push all the honey away and put 4 frames of empty drawn comb next to brood left so she has a place to go to work.
Pollen closest to the entrance, then the brood nest, then empty combs, then the honey farthest from the entrance.  As the cluster expands, be pushing the honey away from the them and put the empty combs between the honey and the nest. Harvest your honey from the farthest at the end. Just some thoughts.

Hope that helps with some ideas, in some way.

[Bob Wilson]

Thank you for the advice,  guys. I am reading over your entries multiple times, working out the process/ideas in my mind for tomorrow.

[Bob Wilson]

Cao. Would you read HoneyPump above, and give me advice on queens moving vertically through your horizontal hives? Do your queens balking at moving sideways much?

[Acebird]

Assuming it is not beekeeper induced they could have a strong genetic trait to swarm regardless of what the hive configuration is.  If so the solution is to pinch the queen and introduce another not related.

[cao]

Do your queens balking at moving sideways much?

I don't think they mind moving sideways.  I just think they don't like laying near the edge of the box unless they have too.
I think with HP's queens stopping at 6 frame wide may have more to do with the 10 frame box.  I think they like having that honey insulation around the outside.  My long hives have 10-15 frames with brood when they are building up.  His 6 frames full of brood is probably a good gauge for minimum size of brood nest to prevent swarming.  In a long hive where they store honey above each frame, that would equal probably around 10 frames for laying space for the queen, maybe more.  It is a balancing act with a long hive.  You want them to fill out the entire box, but if they do you have to realize that that is equal to 3 deep 10 frame boxes.  Most hives that are that big will want to swarm and can 3 or 4 times and still have enough bees to make it through the winter.

[Bob Wilson]

Report on the inspection:
Jim: I went through the hive slowly, shook off every frame to inspect for queen cells. I found somewhere around 20 queen cells. Most were sealed with royal jelly and larva. 5-6 of them were ready to hatch, and when I gently pulled the top, were pushing to get out. I had no queen cages, but I drilled a lot of holes in some plastic film canisters, and they worked great. I smoked them as I learned in Beefest and worked the entire daunting process slowly without gloves. No stings. Also, you were right. That first queen jumped out of her cell and started running. After that, I pulled off the larger queen cells and laid them aside, while I ruptured all the other immature ones with my hive tool. Then I picked up the mature cells, opened them, and captured the queen. However, one of them which I laid aside I later found cracked open and empty. There may have been an escaped queen that went back into the hive, in addition to the one I purposely placed back in. It was very harrowing for this relatively new beek, picking up those queens amongst the other bees. Hands on working with you at Beefest helped a lot.

HoneyPump: I did as you advised. I put a pollen and resource frame at entrance. Then brood. Then several empty frames. Then honey frames. Then I added more empties after that. However, I forgot to reduce the number of brood frames. That was difficult for the following reason.

Cao: I see what you mean about horizontal Langstroths and brood laying. It is hard to identify solely brood frames. Many of them are have honey and half brood, some of it larva. It seems like there is brood on a lot frames, usually at the bottom. When they fill up 14-16 frames of brood, though, I am beginning to see solid honey frames after that. If the hive holds 32 frames, then I expect that the back 15-16 frames will be only honey.

I really appreciate the advice you all gave. This is why I like Beemaster so much. I would have certainly been clueless and lost without your help.
Thanks very much.
Bob

[Bob Wilson]

When to recheck the hive?
5-6 days for her to go on her mating flight.
10 more days for her to have starting laying well.
That means inspect the hive again in about 2 weeks?
I didn't see any eggs or larva, although I was very distracted with everything else, so I am a little worried that if this queen is rejected, the hive could become queenless.
Maybe I should have just left one large unopened queen cell on one of the frames.

[cao]

I usually wait 2 weeks.  What did you do with the extra queens?  If you put a couple in nucs then you have insurance against a queen not making it back from a mating flight.  You could always combine later.

[BeeMaster2]

Bob,
Since this hive has already swarmed twice, I would not expect to see any eggs or wet larvae. The queen has probably been gone for almost 2 weeks.
Jim Altmiller

[Bob Wilson]

Cao. I put them in a bottle of alcohol for lure. I wish I had kept one in a nuc. I now have three colonies (about to build the third hive), and I really cannot keep a fourth. I am surrounded by houses all around. But I did not think of keeping a nuc for insurance, and combining later if not needed.

Jim. That makes sense. The colony is still relatively large.

[Acebird]

I now have three colonies (about to build the third hive), and I really cannot keep a fourth.

They multiply fast don't They?

[Ben Framed]

I usually wait 2 weeks.  What did you do with the extra queens?  If you put a couple in nucs then you have insurance against a queen not making it back from a mating flight.  You could always combine later.

Excellent advise. Thanks for posting that. This should help many here, including myself.

[TheHoneyPump]

Well done Bob!

As for when to look again?  When dealing with a hive in this condition, I would be in inclined to go back in the following day. In the evening an hour before dusk. To go through again verifying did not miss anything, but especially just to spot the lone queen left walking around.  Then I would leave them alone for 12-14 days, in good flight weather, longer in poor flight weather.

PS ensure to mark in your notes of this hive having multicast swarms.  As said above it may be beekeeper induced or genetics. If there is no obvious reason then consider that VQ in there now taking over comes from the momma that made all those swarm cells.  Later in the season or next year if the hive is showing signs of doing again, then pinch the witch and bring in a mated queen from elsewhere to get rid of those genetics.

[Bob Wilson]

HoneyPump.

I think I had better leave well enough alone. I am indeed tempted to go back through again, but I could well mess things up more than help. I was very thorough the first time. I will make another inspection in two weeks. Perhaps I should mark her at that time, to tract what the hive is doing?

I also remember you mentioning keeping apiary notes in an earlier thread. I had never heard of that before. Things were getting confusing with the hives, so last week I got a composition book, dated the pages, and began compiling all my sketchy notes and memories of the last few months. It is coming in handy right now, noting all this down.

[cao]

It is a good thing to take notes.  With a few hives, a notebook will work.  But I found that as I grew in hive numbers it didn't work as well.  What I do is put a piece of painters tape on the back of the hive and write what I need to on it with a sharpie.  I do that as soon as I close the hive before I do anything else so I don't forget anything. 

[CoolBees]

...  But I found that as I grew in hive numbers it didn't work as well.  What I do is put a piece of painters tape on the back of the hive and write what I need to on it with a sharpie.  I do that as soon as I close the hive before I do anything else so I don't forget anything.

I concur. I quit taking detailed notes this year, and switched to a hive marking system. After about 6 hives, the notes got too complicated. With 6 hives and below, notes worked very well for me.

[Acebird]

A brick has six sides.  If color coded it gives you six conditions or courses of action.  In 100 years nothing has improved on this note taking method.

[Bob Wilson]

I am up to 3 hives when I said I would absolutely do no more than 2. The bees have made me a liar. I look forward to downsizing our home in another year, and getting less house and a bit more land with some privacy. THEN I will need the tape or brick note method. Funny thing also is that my wife doesn't want to get into the hives, but she finds it interesting. She is the one who said to me about this third swarm..."Well, you COULD build another hive box...."

[BeeMaster2]

Bob,
Give your wife a little time. Pretty soon they will bee her hives and you will have to get your own.
I tell the story many times here about while building an observation hive my wife, Judy,  kept telling me it was not going into her house. It did not take very long before she started telling me what to do when I had to split it. 🤗
Jim Altmiller

[CoolBees]

A brick has six sides.  If color coded it gives you six conditions or courses of action.  In 100 years nothing has improved on this note taking method.

Ace - that is excellent! ... I wonder how many decades it would have taken me to "invent" that on my own.  Thanks!

[Ben Framed]

As far as notes there are many ways. I suppose we all have our own ideas and systems.  JurassicApiary Has told me of an app that he uses which I plan to look into further. At the present I use a red painters pen. My tops are white. If there is something that I wish to keep up with I simple write on the Lid. Why not? I intend to paint these on a schedule anyway.

[Acebird]

I wonder how many decades it would have taken me to "invent" that on my own.

You can actually get more than six options if you incorporate direction.  But the more you complicate it the more it turns into unnecessary work.

[Nock]

I got to start doing something. I?m up to 6 and things are starting to run together.

[cao]

I wonder how many decades it would have taken me to "invent" that on my own.

You can actually get more than six options if you incorporate direction.  But the more you complicate it the more it turns into unnecessary work.

my problem with bricks is I forget what it means in the different positions.  I think they would need to be painted and labeled to be much help to me.

[Bob Wilson]

A permanent fat marker, or a different color paint for each side of the brick.. But what would each side say/mean?
A. New queen ?
B. Super soon ?
C. Mite problem?
D
E
F

[William Bagwell]

A permanent fat marker, or a different color paint for each side of the brick.. But what would each side say/mean?

All is well. And I suggest gold paint

[Bob Wilson]

Lol, William. How about...
Gold. All is right.
Green. Hive is growing.
Blue. Maiden flight.
Yellow. Loaded with honey.
White. Always great hygiene.
Pink. Tickled pink about this hive.

[TheHoneyPump]

Bricks are good until a prankster comes by and flips them all randomly.  Just sayin...
Better options are a card stapled under the lid, or a notebook - efile on you phone that you fill in after closing the hive.

[Ben Framed]

Bricks are good until a prankster comes by and flips them all randomly.  Just sayin...
Better options are a card stapled under the lid, or a notebook - efile on you phone that you fill in after closing the hive.

I am thinking Ian uses both the cards and color coated push pin?

[Nock]

Bricks are good until a prankster comes by and flips them all randomly.  Just sayin...
Better options are a card stapled under the lid, or a notebook - efile on you phone that you fill in after closing the hive.

Sounds like you?ve had that happen.

[Oldbeavo]

I agree with Ben F, paint pen on the white lid, date and note.
Paper and honey don't go together, pens and bees wax are incompatible, objects on lids still need decoding which at my age 2 weeks later the code may be forgotten.
Each winter relevant info that needs to be kept, eg number of supers of honey for the season, requeening date are written in the hive and the lid painted white for the next season.
It is interesting sometimes you come to a struggle hive, and you look back over the lid and you have had multiple attempts to resurrect this hive, added brood, added honey and they are still below average. The info is all there in a glance.
The hive will get a RQ (requeen) in the bottom right corner of the lid which is not painted over.

[Bob Wilson]

Good grief. I went through my other hive today and there were multiple queen cells in it also. I couldn't find the queen, older larva, no eggs. Therefore, I followed the advice in this thread, a second time. Shook off each frame. Culled the queen cells. Restructured the hive with nectar, then brood, empties, and honey frames last.
However, this time I pulled a large queen cell frame and put it in a nuk, with resources, brood, empties, and several frames of shaken off bees, and moved it 2 miles away.
I need to get a better handle on how to winter prep, and spring manage these horizontal hives.

[FloridaGardener]

... my observation... the queen tends to like to max out her nest at 6 frames wide, when that threshold is reached she really seeks to go up or down to framespace above or below.  If she cannot go up or down, she shows me signs of not liking it and making preparations towards getting ready to take off....Be prepared to split, cut down, the nest. Taking away all the brood to other hives or nucs, leaving her only 2 or 3 frames of brood. Then push all the honey away and put 4 frames of empty drawn comb next to brood left so she has a place to go to work.

       HP: Here's my problem.
       I have queens laying 10 brood frames wide, two mediums high.  Packed. I do NOT want them to swarm.

      Yes ... those frames are nearly all brood.  Seriously, just when they pull some lovely white wax and start filling it with delicious citrus blossom honey, those rummy bugs feed it all to their family ! ! !  I'm not getting any yet. 

      And because their clans are pretending the QX is made of #8 cloth (even with a top entrance), I have caved to the demand and added another hive body. I really don't like the hive to get so big.  Because honestly it's pretty hard to take apart to check for swarm cells and split preventively.  Yet a big workforce = more honey.
       
      I keep starting nucs with brood frames I'm culling, but mating success has been at only 50%.  In two instances, I had a queen laying, getting rolling with capped brood, then suddenly!  Emergency cells and queenless roar.

      So, should I take the queen with 5 frames for an artificial swarm, even with no swarm cells, and leave the big hives to hatch out and just make honey at this point? Then they wouldn't need the excluder. 

[TheHoneyPump]

Sounds like a good queen there.  I saw you PM and the question here.  I will be happy to answer with some tips/tricks to boost the honey while concurrently controlling your queen and maximizing the bees.  It would have to be in a PM reply or a new thread - in interest and respect to not take this one off on a tangent.
With respect to the QE being treated as a glass ceiling.  First question is if that QE is plastic or steel.   ... also best addressed in same new/other thread. 
PS: none of what I will say / share in that regard will be applicable in any way to a long hive or top bar.  Hive types are different tools for different purposes.  One is for just having and enjoying bees.  The other is for making bees and making honey, and making money.

[Seeb]

It would have to be in a PM reply or a new thread

HP, I [and I'm sure others] would be grateful if you would make it a new thread instead of a PM

[FloridaGardener]

Many thanks.  My beek friends here suggested splitting the hive 4 ways and making nucs; and if any nucs aren't queenright in a month, then move the non-QR nuc's frames back to the QR nucs.  Great if a beek wants more nucs and has the equipment.  But I'm trying to keep them as a production hive held just before the tipping point of swarming.

BTW, the excluder is steel/wood frame.  I didn't use one last year, and these didn't swarm last year; they're from a split done on May 22, 2019.

[Bob Wilson]

Guys, the original hive I went through at the beginning of this thread, in which I culled the queen cells, is now bearding up each day. I know its not much, but none of my other colonies is bearding at all.
I rearragnged that hive (pollen, brood, empties, honey, and then more empties) and on top of that, they have the whole back of the empty horizontal box. I was waiting till this coming Saturday) two weeks afterwards to inspect them.
Is it that they are waiting till she gets laying? Maybe she didn't make the mating flight and they are queenless? I thought they would be packing in honey while they wait.

[TheHoneyPump]

Looks to me like they are waiting for something. For example, waiting for an actively mating queen to return. This is assuming the entrance is along the bottom where the bees are. Other times, they may just want to get some air away from their sisters and are just hanging out on the porch enjoying the day.   What is the red thingy in the upper right.

[Bob Wilson]

That is a top entrance "Guardian" beetle entrance. There is another thin rectangular version of the Guardian at the bottom, where they are bearding, which is their main entrance. Before they started bearding, they had become loud and agitated coming in and out. I observed carefully, and it was not robbing or fighting. I wondered if it was congestion, and since they were also beginning to beard in 80 degree whether, when none of the other hives were, I opened the top red entrance also.