A unique way to develop queens.

[Ben Framed]

With the recent talk of queen rearing and grafting, I have decided to share the following. I am learning form a fellow, that raises queens differently from anyone that I have studied anywhere in the world. What he does is place the queen in a queen excluder cage that holds an empty brood frame. placing this right back in the hive. When the larva is the right age, and all will be the same age in each area, he removes this frame, cuts a long strip of this comb with the contained larva, shaves off a small portion of the comb face, leaving the larva automatically in a shallower cup than was original. Then, cuts these into one pieces cups separating them , placing them in a Nicot holding holder, (The pale yellow cell cup block), (the one that you would normally place the little hard pale brown cell cups in), securing these on the bar lined up as a normal nicot go round. Then he places a drop of wet wax to make sure the cups are bonded in place, then adding this set up to his cell builder, and the results are astonishing! The larva are never disturbed. 

Phillip

[Ben Framed]

Let me add, I have not seen a disadvantage to this route. Another advantage is you can still use the Nicot Queen cages (hair roller type) to make sure any missed queen cell that may have been accidentally missed, allowing an earlier hatching Queen in the cell builder, does not harm the later emergents. Removing all at the same time safely and together if desired, just as in the Nicot system.

Phillip

[van from Arkansas]

Phil, thanks.  There is a system, I believe nicot queen cage with wax cells.  The queen is confined within the cage and lays on wax cell that easily separated and then placed in queen cups and then into cell starter.  The eggs are never touched as you mention.  The problem with this system is sometimes the queen will not lay in the confined cage which I believe contains one hundred cells.  Some queens lay in the nicot, some don?t.  Kinda hit or miss.  A friend uses this system and he uses several cages with several queens so there is usually at least one that lays in the nicot cell.  Not positive nicot is the name of the system, I have never used.  As you know, I always wet graft larva.  That is IF the weather allows.

[Ben Framed]

Thank you for the input Mr Van. I suppose in a way this is kind of similar to what you described with the wax cups. This fellow uses a full empty older brood frame. The older comb being a rigid comb will be slightly shaved down, without distorting the cups shape in which the larva is contained. He cleans the edges of the shaved cup with a simple toothpick. I suppose this large frame system is natural to the queen and does not slow her down with her laying? Being this frame of comb is contained in a Queen Excluder cage right alongside the other frames in a natural box hive and natural surroundings, the queen goes to business. The QE cage allows nurse bees the opportunity to nurture the newly developed eggs as well as feeding the queen as needed. Just as they would do naturally. I really believe this is a win win situation. Of course it could never be as much fun as good ole grafting such as you and other experts have mastered. lol. I will not even attempt to sway you from that Art. Perhaps in due time I will make a short video showing the steps involved in the process which I am describing, (as well as some I have omitted), along with results obtained.

Phillip

[TheHoneyPump]

Interesting method. Though as described it seems (to me) that the larvae is out of hive exposed for quite some time while all the comb cutting and shaving is going on.  How long does it take from when the caged frame is pulled to when cells are placed in cell builder?  From bees to bees time.  B2BT. 
With nicot cage use; the time out of hive, take cage out, place cups onto holder bar, place bar into cell builder - can be merely 2 minutes total time.
With hand grafting; pull frame, graft into cups on the bar, place bar into builder - 4 minutes total time.
My point is the time the larva is out of the hive, exposed, is very important.  The longer that is the lower the success rate.

[van from Arkansas]

You bet ya HP.  I graft on first floor of two story home.  All the cold air settles to the bottom floor where I graft.  Temperature is about 70F in June, so cold is definitely on my mind when I graft larva.  I have to use a heating pad to keep warm: grafting frames, grafting tool, cups, royal jelly.

[Ben Framed]

> Though as described it seems (to me) that the larvae is out of hive exposed for quite some time while all the comb cutting and shaving is going on.

Light years faster than grafting IMHO. The shaving is done with a quick back and forth swipe of a thin bladed sharp butcher knife while the long, cut out strips, of larva held in the comb are still intact. Another good reason for using seasoned dark HARD brood comb. Plus the larva are NEVER exposed to open air as in conventional grafting.  Immediately the individual cups from the comb are separated and placed into the tan, yellow cup holders on the bar, (Nicot holders I might add which are previously secured to the bar), boom boom boom, cleaned, secured, and placed into the starter hive. Presto! I do not expect this practice to be readily accepted (Until I make a video) lol.

Phillip




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[yes2matt]

Interesting method. Though as described it seems (to me) that the larvae is out of hive exposed for quite some time while all the comb cutting and shaving is going on.  How long does it take from when the caged frame is pulled to when cells are placed in cell builder?  From bees to bees time.  B2BT. 
With nicot cage use; the time out of hive, take cage out, place cups onto holder bar, place bar into cell builder - can be merely 2 minutes total time.
With hand grafting; pull frame, graft into cups on the bar, place bar into builder - 4 minutes total time.
My point is the time the larva is out of the hive, exposed, is very important.  The longer that is the lower the success rate.

I would love to watch a four minute youtube of grafting in the field. Not saying I don't believe you, but you must be doing it entirely differently than I've ever seen or considered.

[Ben Framed]

Me too! I feel sure Mr HP will be like greased lightening  when it comes to grafting. I would like to see you do this Mr HP.  Along with your input and good tips along the way.

That goes for Mr Van also. I am thinking you fellows would make a great video, with a lot to offer in information.

Phillip

[TheHoneyPump]

I graft right in the beeyard, on top if the hive or in the truck seat.  The breeder is in a small hive and the cell builders are right beside it.  I do not need to and will not make a video as to how easy and quickly it is to graft 20 cups and lower those immediately into the cell builder.  Same goes for retrieving cups from the laying cage.
If your are prepared and have everything you need setup it is quick and slick. The point I was making is the larvae of correct age are delicate. The step has to be quick as possible to get them back to nurse bees. There is no rocket science to it; other than requiring good eyes and steady hands.
As said earlier and in other places, grafting is but one very small part, minuscule part, in the overall effort and timeline of getting to mated queens laying in hives. Where I try to steer the thinking is less focus on the grafting and much much more focus on everything else involved in queen rearing.

[Ben Framed]

I graft right in the beeyard, on top if the hive or in the truck seat.  The breeder is in a small hive and the cell builders are right beside it.  I do not need to and will not make a video as to how easy and quickly it is to graft 20 cups and lower those immediately into the cell builder.  Same goes for retrieving cups from the laying cage.
If your are prepared and have everything you need setup it is quick and slick. There is no rocket science to it.
As said earlier and in other places, grafting is but one very small part, minuscule part, in the overall effort and timeline of getting to mated queens laying in hives. Where I try to steer the thinking is less focus on the grafting and much much more focus on everything else involved in queen rearing.

No Sir, I have no doubt you don?t need to make a video. Though it would have been nice to see you in action, but more importantly, I feel sure you would have had plenty to offer in important information and tips of being a more successful grafter. 

[Ben Framed]

>The point I was making is the larvae of correct age are delicate.

That is my point as well. Just as traditional grafting, everything is done right on the spot. With the exception the larva never leaves the shelter of their very own, original cups. I was simply pointing out there may be other unique ways to raising queens and in my opinion this is a good one. There may others who might find this Unique way interesting. As I said earlier, I am not attempting to sway you professionals away from traditional grafting.

[cao]

Where I try to steer the thinking is less focus on the grafting and much much more focus on everything else involved in queen rearing.

The everything else is why my queen rearing amounts to pulling the queen and then coming back a week later and making splits from the capped queen cells.  I would like to try grafting.  Someday I will get all those ducks in a row and do some grafting.

[Ben Framed]

Here is one of those videos....

https://youtu.be/9IFUes2rTn4

[Lesgold]

That?s an easy way of making queens. Thanks for sharing that Phillip. This technique should work well if you get the correct age larvae.

[Ben Framed]

Your welcomed Les. With the caged queen on a fresh frame, insures producing the right age larva, leaving little to no doubt.. However, it is always good to inspect closely for certainty ....

Phillip

[JojoBeeBoy]

Interesting method. Though as described it seems (to me) that the larvae is out of hive exposed for quite some time while all the comb cutting and shaving is going on.  How long does it take from when the caged frame is pulled to when cells are placed in cell builder?  From bees to bees time.  B2BT. 
With nicot cage use; the time out of hive, take cage out, place cups onto holder bar, place bar into cell builder - can be merely 2 minutes total time.
With hand grafting; pull frame, graft into cups on the bar, place bar into builder - 4 minutes total time.
My point is the time the larva is out of the hive, exposed, is very important.  The longer that is the lower the success rate.

Yes, while I like the idea of anything new, this would put them out for a while. Of course if you have a hot/humid room to do it in, then you have time. You also buy a good amount of time over grafting (I do dry, so from pulling the donor until every piece of it is back in a hive or starter is <10min. But sitting in their own juices would give you a while longer.

I've seen the Jason C on YouTube use a heated circular punch and Don K cut strips and wax them in, only leaving every 4th or 5th larvae. Also Richard Noel and some of those guys graft straight into Nicot cups, I guess so the roller cages will fit later.

Interesting idea though, keep digging Phillip. :D

[Ben Framed]

Yes, while I like the idea of anything new, this would put them out for a while. Of course if you have a hot/humid room to do it in, then you have time. You also buy a good amount of time over grafting (I do dry, so from pulling the donor until every piece of it is back in a hive or starter is <10min. But sitting in their own juices would give you a while longer.

I've seen the Jason C on YouTube use a heated circular punch and Don K cut strips and wax them in, only leaving every 4th or 5th larvae. Also Richard Noel and some of those guys graft straight into Nicot cups, I guess so the roller cages will fit later.

Interesting idea though, keep digging Phillip. :D

Hi Jojo, I also like the idea of anything new 'as long as it has merit'. I have formed the opinion this method does have some merit to it.

I have learned from Youtubers' as well. I will mention one of many for whom I have GREAT respect 'Bob Binnie'. He has some good stuff...

This 5 minute video started after all preparations were already made and laid out on the table, knives, and other necessary equipment etc ready to go in close proximity to the hive and cell starter. Saving time travel too and fro to the grafting area. (Some graft in their pick-up trucks, some in grafting trailers, and some in their basements etc.)

The larva frame was then pulled at the beginning of the video, right there on the spot. The first 1 minute and 47 seconds was 'in real time'. The next three minutes were used by 50 percent time frame increase, meaning in real time add 4.5 minutes more (instead of the 3), until the video was turned back to real time, one more minute before finished. Lets give him another 2 minutes for miscellaneous that he probably does not need to drip a drop of hot wax to assure sealing the grafts in place to the Nicot Cores, plus finish the last 5 or so that was not shown. That ups the time to 8/9 minutes from the time the larva frame was pulled from the brood box, until the grafting frame was snug in the cell starter box. All done right there on the spot next to the bees. I reluctant to say it can not be done faster. But with this short time frame 'shown' here, this method does in fact live up the to Topic Title; "A unique way to develop queens." And icing on the cake, the best part of all is, 'as you noted', the larva are never dug or pulled from the safety and comfort of their very own cell being further exposed as in grafting. :D

Phillip

[Brian MCquilkin]

I have used a homemade punch for making queen cell and works well.
The video below shows the method.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gF4P-QpsPnI

[Ben Framed]

I have used a homemade punch for making queen cell and works well.
The video below shows the method.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gF4P-QpsPnI

Yes that is unique! Thanks!