New Hive

[Acebird]

I picked up this hive last evening from a friends back yard.  It is in the 16x16 square brown table  and there entrance is the hand hole.  I blocked the one in the back.  I inverted this table and put a box of comb on top with the hope that they will move the nest to the combs in the standard medium box.  The hive is very light so I added a jar of syrup in the top just in case they need it to fix comb in the top frames.  There are two sets of combs started about 6 each oriented 90 degrees from each other near the entrance.  I know I should have taken a picture.
Does anyone think this will work?  How long should I wait for this experiment to take hold?
https://photos.app.goo.gl/1kwQA2dBYeMgkmHM9

[Acebird]

Alright I opened it up again and took some photos.  I don't know where I got the 90 degree orientation because they are all in line but in two corners.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/FAA8gRe8EPSLiNPx5
https://photos.app.goo.gl/VVjUDRXv9zEp9cLv9

[Ben Framed]

Brian congratulations on your new hive. Unfortunately the last photos are a little dark for me to clearly see the situation. I will take a shot offering a little advice. It gets very hot in your area, I would advise doing a cut-out instead of a flip over for more than one reason. Without adequate support on the bottom of these free hanging combs, the heat may allow the combs to swag which could turn into a real mess if they sway over onto each other. A quick cut out will not only avoid this but will save the brood comb, as well as brood inside the brood comb, and will be a real boost to you new hive. 

Phillip

[BeeMaster2]

Ace,
I tried to do the same many years ago when I was living in Jacksonville. It was late fall and I picked up a large log from a tree removal company that had a large hive in it. I put a hive box on it over the top hole. They never moved up, the next spring they absconded.
I would also recommend doing a full cutout and place them in your box.
Jim Altmiller

[Lesgold]

Hi Brian,

I did a similar thing about 7 years ago. Bees had moved into a possum box that was located in a tree. The hive was taken home and set up on a stand. The top of the box was removed and an 8 frame box was attached to the top. I made sure that the distance between the established comb and the new frames was small so there was a natural ?bridge? for the queen to move across. The entrance was blocked and a new entrance was created above the new frames. My thinking was that the bees would have to move through the new box to get out. From memory, it turned into a nice little hive that produced some good honey.

[FloridaGardener]

I know only .01% as much as Jim but I agree to cut it out for sure.

But I would keep an eye on it, and wait until a couple days after some new brood is out, because that white wax will crumple especially in this summer heat.   Also the swarm bees will be old then, and some brood will be lost in the cutout, and it will keep population higher if the first round hatches, so there are new nurses. Losing only eggs ... less impact than losing capped brood.  I'm sure there will soon be brood in all stages soon if you are feeding tho...
But one generation through the comb, and the comb will have a cocoon to make it stronger for the cutout.

And I would reduce that entrance more against SHB, moths, robbers.

[Acebird]

Can anyone hazard a guess on how long they have been in this table based on the development of the comb?  The home owner was guessing 4 weeks but I don't think it was anywhere near that long.  The hive is light as a feather so there is no stored nectar.  I am reluctant to do the cut out because I have never done one and I think it will set them back at a critical time.  And there is a good chance butter fingers will harm the queen.  Looking down in this heat with a suit on my glasses fog up in less then a minute.

[Acebird]

I made sure that the distance between the established comb and the new frames was small so there was a natural ?bridge? for the queen to move across.

The table is fake masonry, probably some sort of plastic.  The home owner is looking to get the table back so I can't modify it.  This is another problem with a cut out because it is nearly an arms length to reach the comb.  There is not enough room to get both hands in the box at the same time.

[BeeMaster2]

Ace,
Leave it in the box until BeeFest. If you bring it here, we can do a cutout for you. Bee sure to bring enough hive equipment to put them in.
Jim Altmiller

[Acebird]

Ace,
Leave it in the box until BeeFest. If you bring it here, we can do a cutout for you. Bee sure to bring enough hive equipment to put them in.
Jim Altmiller

That is not a bad idea.  Thanks for the offer.  I will check them in a week to see what is happening.  Depending on what I see I might take the box of frames off and right the hive for the next beefest.  I would say the volume of the box is about two 8 frame mediums.
Judging from the one year I had a swarm down here winter is a dearth so if I right the hive what are my options for feeding through the winter?  I can't believe I am going against my nature for feeding but southern fl is a different nut to crack.
Are you going to start beefest on a Friday or Saturday?

[BeeMaster2]

It starts on Friday morning. You will probably need to feed them. Use the super to seal in the top and put in a feeder in it.
See the link below for information on BeeFest 2023.
Jim Altmiller

[Acebird]

It starts on Friday morning. You will probably need to feed them. Use the super to seal in the top and put in a feeder in it.

If the hive is going to remain in the table box I am going to have to flip it back over otherwise next spring there will be a huge mess or they will leave because of inverted comb.  If I flip it back over then feeding might be a problem.  Maybe I can put a box on the bottom for feeding.

[Bill Murray]

Im just thinking here, a little drawn comb, 1 frame of brood and some beego to force them up into the box?

I dont have much experience here but I did watch a guy do that with a tree that was cut down once.

My opinion was it was interesting to watch but he could have bought a nuc, or made 5 for the time he invested in getting those bees.

[Acebird]

Im just thinking here, a little drawn comb, 1 frame of brood and some beego to force them up into the box?

I dont have much experience here but I did watch a guy do that with a tree that was cut down once.

My opinion was it was interesting to watch but he could have bought a nuc, or made 5 for the time he invested in getting those bees.

There is 6 frames of simi drawn comb above them now.  I can't picture beego forcing the bees, especially the queen, out of one box where they drew fresh comb and into another box of old comb.
In FL I do not know what the bees will do.  In NY I could almost guarantee they would go up into the combs above and leave the comb at the bottom once the brood was out of the cells.
My wife is predicting if the bees do not go up into the box I provided by the time beefest comes around then they will be dead or gone.  If they do go up then I won't need to bring the hive to beefest for extraction.  So the experiment continues...

[Ben Framed]

I am not trying to be contradictory here but do have a question in this line of thinking, if 'bee go' will run even the queen off of brood, will the bees stop in the new provision or continue to escape leading to abscond?
Why chance it when a simple cutout will fix the situation?

Phillip

[Acebird]

I too think beego would result in an abscond.  I know to most people a cut out is simple.  To me not so much.  If this experiment fails I will try a cut out on the next one.  I am certain a swarm will move into the table again now that it has had a swarm.  It is a perfect swarm box.

[Acebird]

Failed experiment.  Florida Gardener prediction came true.  The comb didn't crumble but it laid over on its side.  Bees left yesterday.  Too bad, there was a lot of brood started.  The feeding probably gave them the nectar they needed to find another home.  I am confused as to why they didn't use the box of comb I gave them. Probably because of the intervention and deemed it a bad place to live.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/or97gTZV9tbXiN3aA
So I have to find someone local that can help me with a cut out on the next try.  It seems to me that I would have to vac the bees up before trying to remove the comb.  Can a queen survive going through a vac hose?   Or if it was you how would you proceed?

[Ben Framed]

Brian congratulations on your new hive. Unfortunately the last photos are a little dark for me to clearly see the situation. I will take a shot offering a little advice. It gets very hot in your area, I would advise doing a cut-out instead of a flip over for more than one reason. Without adequate support on the bottom of these free hanging combs, the heat may allow the combs to swag which could turn into a real mess if they sway over onto each other. A quick cut out will not only avoid this but will save the brood comb, as well as brood inside the brood comb, and will be a real boost to you new hive. 

Phillip

Just as I feared. Sorry Ace...

Phillip

[Acebird]

Oh sorry, I guess you were right Phil.
Judging from these combs how long do you think they were there?  There was at least one round of brood hatched.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Dpwzfk4ytUm9L8zi9

[Ben Framed]

Not long at all!
Brian, I am sorry too, as my advice would most likely not saved this hive either. I did not realize this was new comb. I really doubt that you would have been able to save by cutout out in your heat with new comb. Unlike M&Ms, (lol), new comb in the heat seems to melt in your hands!
 
In this case another approach would have been needed. Perhaps Jims reply 8.



Re: New Hive
<<Reply #8 on: July 30, 2022, 09:08:49 am>

Ace,
Leave it in the box until BeeFest. If you bring it here, we can do a cutout for you. Bee sure to bring enough hive equipment to put them in.
Jim Altmiller"

 

This would have given the comb time to age and become manageable.

Phillip

[Acebird]

Yeah but in 9 months that box would have been full of comb and a full blown hive.  It would be much harder to get the comb out.  You would have no access to where the comb attached at the top.  If I can't get help on the next one I am going to just slam the table box on top of a box of frames like you would do in a package install.  The problem is no chance to practice how hard to slam.  It has to be hard enough to knock the bees down but not so hard that it breaks the comb.

[Acebird]

Any guesses on timeframe?  How long they were in the box?

[Ben Framed]

No longer than it takes to lay and have capped brood. They will start making comb almost imminently.
Phillip

[Bill Murray]

Even if it breaks the comb just rubber band it back into a frame.

[Ben Framed]

You are right Bill. The new comb is much more difficult to work with as it will not only break but bend as well. Setting it on the bottom bar, even with space gap, from the top of the comb to the top bar would have probably worked with enough rubber band support. At least enough to have saved this hive.

Phillip

[Bill Murray]

Sometime I have the CRS syndrome, or as I call it now A Biden moment, and do stupid things like not have enough frames with me  then forget them next time, medium feeder in deep box cause it was all I had at the time and forget to switch it out. etc. etc. etc.

Ill have nice drawn comb hanging  off the lid, off the bottom of the feeder. Depends on how Im feeling that day when I scrape it off..... but rubber bands work well.

[Acebird]

What size rubber bands should I get for medium frames?  What spacing do you use or how many per frame?

[Acebird]

Ill have nice drawn comb hanging  off the lid, off the bottom of the feeder.

I think you can appreciate it is much easier to shave comb off a lid vs. a 16 x 16 x 20 in deep box.  They also attached the comb to the side of the box.

[The15thMember]

What size rubber bands should I get for medium frames?  What spacing do you use or how many per frame?

I use all mediums and since I'm foundationless, I rubber band comb in all the time.  I use the plain, uncolored, normal sized rubber bands that you can get a Walmart or Staples or wherever.  If I've got a big piece of comb, I'll put maybe 4 or 5 rubber bands on the frame vertically, pretty close together down on one end, then slide the comb in, and then space the rubber bands evenly on the frame.  I also sometimes cross the rubber bands like a X depending on how things end up as I'm working.  Once the bees have connected the comb, they'll chew through the rubber bands and dump them out in front of the hive.           

[BeeMaster2]

Ace,
From the pictures, those bees were in that hive for about a month.
You want a rubber bands that will go around both of your hands placed vertically. In other words one hand over the other when the band is stretched tight.
I would not bang the bees to get them out. I have way too many bees get very mean, even when it wasn?t their hive, just another hive on the same platform.
Smoke them properly and just slowly remove the comb. Watch some of JPs videos. Don?t wear gloves. With bare smoked hands you can slide your hand on the comb and the bees will move out of the way.
Good luck.
Jim Altmiller

[Acebird]

I would not bang the bees to get them out.

Yeah, probably not a good idea.  It is bound to kill developing brood.

Don?t wear gloves. With bare smoked hands you can slide your hand on the comb and the bees will move out of the way.

I was sure I was going to have to go glove less.  No way to get your fingers between combs with gloves on.
You know I noticed another thing about this hive.  Like the other hive I had they don't store nectar.  The combs were just about all brood.  That is not common up north.  They also had hive beetles.
Do you think the comb is worth saving?  There is a lot of capped brood in the cells which is surely dead.

[Bill Murray]

Do you think the comb is worth saving?  There is a lot of capped brood in the cells which is surely dead
Definitely. freeze it. I digress, depends on what your plans are moving forward.

[Acebird]

If I freeze then what?

[BeeMaster2]

Ace,
Freezing it will kill any bugs. After 3 days, take it out, put it in front of a fan to warm it up and dry out any condensation, at least a week to dry out the brood, then seal it in a large baggie. When you are ready to use it, put it in frames using it rubber bands. Make sure it is right side up. The bees will clean it up in a couple of days, if not one day.
Jim Altmiller

[FloridaGardener]

Aww, Sorry about that...white wax is hard to work with especially in hot ambient temps.  When I do a cutout I use a QX as Queen "includer" for a few days.  Not long because of drones.  Just long enough that they are forced to clean house and set up again in the new hive.

If you have a beek buddy I suggest to freeze/sanitize the comb, then put it in your buddy's hive.  You'll be "owed" when you're ready for a couple frames of brood or comb.  White wax  is hard to save.  It will crumble when taken out of the freezer, and it can't be stacked/crushed, it has to be upright and protected from compression.

Your hive works great as a bait hive.  There are large swarms in Fla.  I've opened bait hives to find scouts flying inside, circling around!  Use two mediums or one deep at least.  I put one frame or two partial frames of old brood comb on one edge, and knock the bottom off a couple of frames but leave top & sides, so the bees don't percieve a barrier. - top-bar style, in a way.  Leave the rest empty.  Spray a whiff of lure in there, check weekly to get rid of palmetto bug families. 

In NW Fla there still are swarms for another couple of months.  They will find your hive.  Who knows, I've had swarms leave bait hives then appear to come back when they don't find something better. 

[FloridaGardener]

PS - re: no stored nectar. IMHO.
New hive = bees spend every resource including labor on more bees.
Florida = usually a little forage always.  Not a flow, just forage.  July/August is Liriope, wild sumac, mexican clover (richardia scabrosa), ornamentals like bottle brush/vitex bloom intermittently,  roadside weeds etc. Not enough to store, just enough to keep nestbuilding.

Hive beetles -  I've seen them come along in swarms.   They're a plague.

[Bill Murray]

The mexican clover just came out here in the last 3 days. its outstanding forage if there is enough of it.

[Acebird]

mexican clover (richardia scabrosa),

Haven't seen it.

Hive beetles -  I've seen them come along in swarms.   They're a plague.

Yes, I can see were feral hives have an urge to move.  Varroa doesn't get a chance to take hold because the beetles drive the bees out.
I was not able to save any brood comb from the last hive.  I am wondering if the comb I do have is not acceptable for the bees.  Maybe I should just use foundation like an install and forget the tattered comb.

[FloridaGardener]

You won't get a swarm on foundation unless you leave only a sheet or two built out.  They see it as a wall within the hive cavity.

SHB and wax moths this year are the worst I've ever battled.  I think Varroa are hindered also by a brood break in the hot summer/relative dearth... whereas SHB/moth take advantage of a diminishing hive population patrolling over pollen stores. 

This year I'm starting a new policy of pulling surplus pollen frames after the main flow tapers off in mid-June or so.   

[Bill Murray]

I just came in from west of live oak. Those bees have just been overflowing all summer. Long story short. I was going to pull treatments, do mite check, make up 2- 4 frame nucs from each of the hives in that yard. Nectar just started trickling in. fair amount of drones.

Mite check revealed anywhere from 4 to 11 mites per hive.

Its hot as blazes I treated with Apivar 42 days ago. Im going to leave the treatment till sunday when I go back out for all the good a couple days will do.

Im thinking of caging the queens on on a frame. over some capped brood. #8 wire mesh. I just dont know how big to make the push in cages.

[yes2matt]

Ace,
Leave it in the box until BeeFest. If you bring it here, we can do a cutout for you. Bee sure to bring enough hive equipment to put them in.
Jim Altmiller

FUN!

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