Welcome, Guest

Author Topic: Newbee Observation Hive Questions  (Read 6201 times)

Offline The15thMember

  • Global Moderator
  • Galactic Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 4495
  • Gender: Female
  • Traveler of the Multiverse, Seeker of Knowledge
Newbee Observation Hive Questions
« on: January 03, 2018, 04:46:07 pm »
I'm thinking that to start out, I'd like to get 2 langstroth hives and 1 observation hive.  I am not handy at all, so I'd need to buy an observation hive, or get relatively simple plans for building one.  What style would you recommend?  I'm going to be running all mediums, so I'd need one that works with mediums, I'd imagine.  I'm sort of confused about keeping one in the house; do you have to drill through an exterior wall for an exit tube? I don't see myself doing that, since that seems a little to permanent for me, and my house has casement windows, so I don't think that a window exit would work.  Could I keep one on my porch?  Do you keep bees in one continuously, or do you need to move them to a traditional hive at times, say over the winter?  How do you deal with the bees needing space to expand in a hive that's not modular?         
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline cao

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 1692
  • Gender: Male
Re: Newbee Observation Hive Questions
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2018, 08:58:26 pm »
>What style would you recommend?
I made my own because I didn't like the standard one size fits all observation hive.
https://beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=49772.msg433730#msg433730
This is a pic of the one I built.  I actually built enough of the boxes for two, which I have in my living room now with bees in them.

>do you have to drill through an exterior wall for an exit tube?
You could but I got mine going through a couple windows in my bay window.

>Could I keep one on my porch?
You can keep them anywhere.

>Do you keep bees in one continuously, or do you need to move them to a traditional hive at times, say over the winter?
I got mine mainly to keep small hives through winter that normally wouldn't make it through the cold.

>How do you deal with the bees needing space to expand in a hive that's not modular?
Since mine is modular I can just add or subtract boxes as necessary. If not, than you add/remove frames.

 





Online BeeMaster2

  • Administrator
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 13532
  • Gender: Male
Re: Newbee Observation Hive Questions
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2018, 12:54:15 am »
15,
I built a lazy Susan observation hive. It has the entrance in the center of the bottom of the hive. The tube goes through a hole drilled through the wall. Where you are if you want to keep them in the hive year around they will need to be kept in a closed in room, preferably heated. Mine are on the patio and wrapped in insulation and blankets. If I had a good spot for them I would have them in the house. They used to be in my closed in patio until we moved.
I have 4 medium frames vertical and 2 wide mainly because I use medium frames.
Being a small hive, you will need to split them more often than regular hives. The good thing is you will learn, by watching, when you need to split the hive. Sometimes they will swarm with only 2 frames. By the way, adding one drawn framentoneach level will stop this.
Jim
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
Ben Franklin

Online Michael Bush

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 19923
  • Gender: Male
    • bushfarms.com
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--James "Big Boy" Medlin

Offline The15thMember

  • Global Moderator
  • Galactic Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 4495
  • Gender: Female
  • Traveler of the Multiverse, Seeker of Knowledge
Re: Newbee Observation Hive Questions
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2018, 02:09:10 pm »
Thanks for all the info.  As always, it's a huge help.  All of you have gorgeous hives!  I wish I had the ability to just build one.  :sad:  Do you know of anywhere that sells a good one, so I wouldn't have to build it (and that's preferably not like $700 like the ones that Bonterra sells)?  Or do any of you have or know of basically comprehensive plans for hives like the ones you've built?   
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline The15thMember

  • Global Moderator
  • Galactic Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 4495
  • Gender: Female
  • Traveler of the Multiverse, Seeker of Knowledge
Re: Newbee Observation Hive Questions
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2018, 07:39:52 pm »
Hey what do you guys think of this one? 
https://www.betterbee.com/educational-tools/oh1-observation-hive.asp

I'm hatching this plan in my head, and if someone would give me an opinion on it, I'd really appreciate it.  I was adding up the cost of all the supplies I need to get started, and it's coming out to be a little more than I expected.  What would you say to me getting 1 observation hive and one langstroth hive to start?  Do you think that is good enough to compare between hives?  I'm thinking this way I could save some money in woodenware. 
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline iddee

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 10853
  • Gender: Male
Re: Newbee Observation Hive Questions
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2018, 07:47:53 pm »
I would recommend starting with 2 langstroth and adding the OB later. I think you will be glad you did.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Online BeeMaster2

  • Administrator
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 13532
  • Gender: Male
Re: Newbee Observation Hive Questions
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2018, 08:08:25 pm »
I agree with Iddee. Get familiar with keeping bees before starting the OH.
Jim
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
Ben Franklin

Offline Acebird

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 8112
  • Gender: Male
  • Just do it
Re: Newbee Observation Hive Questions
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2018, 08:54:42 am »
+2 the best observation hive you can have is a standard Lang.  There is nothing normal about glass panes around a bee hive.  They prefer their home dark.  Observation hives are usually used to spark interest in people who know nothing about bees.  You want to learn about bees.  You want to be successful with bees.  Use the Lang to do that.  When you think you have a handle on it then try the observation hive to coax other people in the hobby.  In the beginning the more you complicate the process the more you will be confused and that may lead to frustration.
Brian Cardinal
Just do it

Offline The15thMember

  • Global Moderator
  • Galactic Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 4495
  • Gender: Female
  • Traveler of the Multiverse, Seeker of Knowledge
Re: Newbee Observation Hive Questions
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2018, 12:42:12 pm »
I figured that you guys would say that.  Your probably right, I should just keep it simple, stupid.  :wink:  My ultimate would have been to get 2 Langstroths and an OH, but I probably shouldn't spent that much money to start.   
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Online Michael Bush

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 19923
  • Gender: Male
    • bushfarms.com
Re: Newbee Observation Hive Questions
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2018, 03:24:46 pm »
I recommend starting with an observation hive.  You will kill some hives as a beginner beekeeper.  You may as well learn as much as possible in the process.  I haven't found any observation hives that are perfect.  Bonterra (sp?) apparently has some nice ones.  I have a very nice one from Draper but the space between the glass is too wide.  I have a couple from Brushy Mt (they don't list them in their catalog anymore) but they have too little space between the glass and I had to add space.  The draper has a lazy susan which I like a lot.
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--James "Big Boy" Medlin

Offline Acebird

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 8112
  • Gender: Male
  • Just do it
Re: Newbee Observation Hive Questions
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2018, 05:41:43 pm »
You may as well learn as much as possible in the process.

What will you learn from an observation hive that you can't learn from a standard Lang?
Brian Cardinal
Just do it

Online BeeMaster2

  • Administrator
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 13532
  • Gender: Male
Re: Newbee Observation Hive Questions
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2018, 12:12:41 am »
A lot. I learned queens piping mean you have a hive that plans on swarming over and over again and it is a good hive to get a lot of queens from without having to graft queens.
I learned the signs of when a hive is about to swarm.
I learned a lot of things I would have never have learned if I did not have my observation hive.
Jim
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
Ben Franklin

Offline Acebird

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 8112
  • Gender: Male
  • Just do it
Re: Newbee Observation Hive Questions
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2018, 09:25:52 am »
A lot. I learned queens piping mean you have a hive that plans on swarming over and over again and it is a good hive to get a lot of queens from without having to graft queens.
I learned the signs of when a hive is about to swarm.

I am wondering how the old timers in Germany learned that when they were using skeps.  No way to even pull frames.
Brian Cardinal
Just do it

Offline little john

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 1537
Re: Newbee Observation Hive Questions
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2018, 09:56:22 am »
FWIW:

Although I have no interest in Observation Hives myself, a few days ago I was intrigued to learn that the first recorded Observation Hive was made by Christopher Wren (later to become Sir Christopher Wren, designer of St. Paul's cathederal, London) whilst a student at Oxford in May 1654.

Quote
It was a three-storey, transparent beehive, in which the bees were able to move between the various layers of the hive, and glass panels set into the structure allowed an observer to see the honey cascading down inside it.  Although Wren's construction had not been an immediate success (due to a failure to realise that bees worked downwards), it offered the prospect of an ever-increasing stock of bees and honey within the same hive.  Sir Cheney Culpepper was enthusiastic about the possibilities of transparent hives, "wherein the whole waye of woorkinge of that little creature might be seene; by which wee might (I am confidente) have unsophisticated wines of our owne, cheaper & better then from other nations?"



Taken from: The Reformed Common-Wealth of Bees, Hartlib, 1655.
LJ
A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping - http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com

Online Michael Bush

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 19923
  • Gender: Male
    • bushfarms.com
Re: Newbee Observation Hive Questions
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2018, 03:00:17 pm »
>What will you learn from an observation hive that you can't learn from a standard Lang?

So much I would have to write a book... several people have.  You watch them day to day and see in detail things you never seen in a standard hive because as soon as you open it things are different and the bees act different.  In an observation hive you can watch them for hours on end in great detail and see a trend as it plays out in detail.
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--James "Big Boy" Medlin

Offline Acebird

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 8112
  • Gender: Male
  • Just do it
Re: Newbee Observation Hive Questions
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2018, 10:00:56 pm »
In an observation hive you can watch them for hours on end in great detail and see a trend as it plays out in detail.

Every observation hives I have seen is an unnatural hive.  It is a frame or two with glass panes to contain the bees and it appears to me that it requires manipulation for it to even happen.  How do you draw conclusion from this unnatural state?
Brian Cardinal
Just do it

Online BeeMaster2

  • Administrator
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 13532
  • Gender: Male
Re: Newbee Observation Hive Questions
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2018, 10:23:05 pm »
Brian,
Most of the time I put a small quantity of bees and a queen and watch it develop until it gets ready to swarm. Then I take it out side  and split it and start over. I have as they start to fill out a set of frames to add one drawn comb when they start swarm mode even though there plenty of empty frames below the frames they are in.
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
Ben Franklin

Online Michael Bush

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 19923
  • Gender: Male
    • bushfarms.com
Re: Newbee Observation Hive Questions
« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2018, 04:33:03 pm »
> It is a frame or two with glass panes to contain the bees and it appears to me that it requires manipulation for it to even happen.  How do you draw conclusion from this unnatural state?

A reasonable objection, however any observation hive is infinitely more natural than a hive that has been broken open.  Also Huber did all of his experiments with a one frame thick observation hive.  Then he repeated all of them with the Huber leaf hive.  No observation was different between the two.  I think you can be assured that, other than the limited space, they act exactly the same with multiple frames.

"After having for a long time watched the bees in glazed hives, constructed in the way indicated by Mr. de R?aumur, you perceived, Sir that their shape was not favorable to the observer, because these hives are too wide, the bees building in them two rows of parallel combs, and consequently all that happens between those combs is lost for the observer:  from this correct remark,  you advised the use for naturalists of much narrower hives, the panes of which should be so close together that there would be room between them for only one row of combs.  I followed your advice; I made hives an inch and a half (38mm) only in thickness and I had no trouble in hiving swarms in them.  But we cannot rely upon the bees to construct a single comb; they never derogate, when they are not constrained by some particular disposition:  therefore if left to themselves in our thin hives, as they could not build two parallel combs in the length of the hive, they would construct several small ones perpendicular to it and all that would happen between them would be equally lost for the observer:  one must therefore arrange the combs beforehand.  I have them placed so that their plan is perpendicular to the horizon and their lateral surfaces three or four lines (3 lines=1/4 in.=6mm. 4 lines=1/3 in.=8.5mm) from the panes of the hive, on each side.  This distance gives the bees sufficient freedom, but prevents them from collecting in too thick clusters upon the surface of the combs.  With these precautions, the bees establish themselves easily in such narrow hives; they do their work with the same assiduity and order, and as there are no cells which are not exposed to view, we are sure that they cannot conceal any of their actions.

"Description of Hive Invented by the Author
"It is true that by compelling these bees to be content with a habitation, in which they could build but one single row of comb, I had, to a certain point, changed their natural condition, and this circumstance might alter their instinct more or less.  Therefore, to obviate any kind of objection, I devised a hive which, without losing the advantage of thin hives, approached the shape of the common hives in which bees construct several parallel rows of combs.  I will give here the description in a few words:
(a long description of the construction of the "Leaf Hive")...

"I have repeated all my observations in hives of this shape and the results were exactly the same as in the thin-nest hives.  I thus believe that I have obviated all the objections that might be made upon the supposed inconveniences of my flat hives.  Besides, I have no regret of having repeated all my work; by going over the same observations several times, I am much more certain of having avoided error, and I have found in these hives (which I will call book or leaf hives) several advantages which make them very useful in the economic treatment of bees.  I will detail them afterwards, if you permit me."--Francis Huber, Huber's new observations on Bees Volume I 1st Letter
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--James "Big Boy" Medlin

Offline Acebird

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 8112
  • Gender: Male
  • Just do it
Re: Newbee Observation Hive Questions
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2018, 05:24:36 pm »
OK Mike Jim and I recommend starting with the Lang first and you recommend starting with the OH first.
Starting means knowing practically nothing about bees when you get your first hive.  So the beginner is going to start with an OH and learn enough to keep it alive for one season or maybe 1/2 season.  Jim suggest the hive will swarm if it is not split the first half season, maybe more then once.  At what point should the newbie place the hive (or a split) into a standard Lang and attempt to go the full season (overwinter).

Second question:
What precautions should I in my area take due to a cool spring with an OH?  My concern would be if the queen lays in the single top frame can the bees keep the brood warm enough overnight.

My skepticism for a newbie starting with a OH is because our club has had one at our local cooperative extension for as long as I have been in the club, 6 years.  Every year the hive dies of calk brood even though the people who have taken care of the hive have many years experience as beekeepers.  I am wondering what they are doing wrong.  Hive is very active during the summer but doesn't make it to the next spring.
Brian Cardinal
Just do it