Tap for getting honey out of hive?

[CapnChkn]

I'm still reading about all this, it's really too good!  One thing, instead of a stack of supers, the honey could be pulled out of the hive (assuming you would have the time to monitor) and then they would be refilled to be harvested later in the flow.

This would reduce storage space, amount of equipment, and the cost of...

[Wombat2]

Most of the people I have seen/heard talking about this are non-beekeepers thinking "wow we can have a hive in the backyard and just turn a tap when we want honey"  - No experience at all!

The fine print on their site does say supers and bees not provided so for the back yarder average start up cost here is around $400 before buying these frames - they add another $350 for 6 frames or $400 for 7 ( max that will fit a 10 frame super) The buyer will also need some wood work skills to modify a box to take the frames and operate the system - a template is provided !Also the fine print says that the broad box will still need to be monitored for signs of a healthy queen and to check for diseases and pests so other gear will be required - smoker,veil,hive tool - and no where do they mention (for Australia anyway) you have to be a registered beekeeper to have a hive.

Great idea but I will wait a few years before even trying - I have too much invested already and currently this will double the cost of that to introduce it.

[DMLinton]

I agree, David L.  The hype is far outpacing reality on these new frames.  I do not for a second question Michael Bush's assessment and endorsement of the technology.  Michael doesn't mince words - he tells it like it is.  However, aside from that we really have almost nothing to go on. 

I am alarmed at the dearth of technical information provided on the honeyflow.com website - particularly in respect to durability.  I am also alarmed at how polished that site is in terms of marketing.  I did not miss the fact that one of the endorsements is from a P.J. Dawson of P.J. Dawson & Associates, which is a business development firm.  What I come away from that web site with is that Cedar's grandma made him a bee veil and even though he knew enough about bees to know that they would be cranky at dusk, he still went into the hive and took a lot of stings after squishing a lot of bees trying to steal some honey. So, he and his dad decided to invent a better system, which took ten years to develop.  And then they engaged some cute little girls to help with the promotion.

Make no mistake, I think that these frames are a truly remarkable technological development (with the exception of my question about durability).  However, I cannot avoid the feeling that the target markets are, first, people who do not really understand what they are looking at and, two, hobbyists with endless amounts of cash to get rid of.

To new beekeepers - unless your real objective is getting rid of cash, be very careful.

[Michael Bush]

I always advise small investments in ideas you haven't used before.  Reading C.C. Miller and Jay Smith, I'm struck by how often they abandoned something they had invested heavily in and it became firewood.  I've had a few similar experiences where I thought something was a great idea, but the reality of it did not fit well into what I was trying to do, or my ideas on other things changed and those things didn't fit so well.  I have a stack of inner covers and telescopic covers I don't use anymore and I could have saved a lot of money if I never bought them...  Not that there is anything wrong with inner and telescopic covers, they just don't fit what I'm now doing.

This new gadget is really cool.  If I didn't have six frames I'd probably get some just to play with it.  But how it will work out in a system of beekeeping remains to be seen.  Especially at the current price.  I worry that they make it look like you can go out and turn the tap and run some honey out, turn it off and leave and a beginner might think that's how it works.  It's not that way.  You have to wait for it to be capped or it will be too runny and it will spoil, and if it's not capped bees may be in the cells working and you may squish a bunch of bees.  You still have to learn to be a beekeeper.

I was given some frames and asked to test them and give my opinion, which I did.  I am not endorsing them.  Incredulity seems to be the biggest issue they were facing.  I'm just saying they work.  If they turn out to be durable enough, and if they get cheap enough, I will probably buy more of them.  If they don't, I probably won't.  Right now, I will wait for the price to come down.

[MDavid]

Cautionary words duly noted...

My first exposure to local beekeeping when I was a teenager. A friend's father kept a hive in his backyard. I was impressed and knew that one day I would try to do the same. 

I am one of those who has never been a beekeeper that has decided to try a Flow Hive in my back yard. Spent $600 USD for the entire Complete Full Flow Hive package - flow frames, brood box, super box, roof, and I'm sure other stuff that I currently know nothing about. On top of that shipping cost is still unknown and I expect it'll be north of $100 as shipping from Australia to US is very expensive.

Now, I'm not expecting to receive anything until late this year (but more likely Q1 2016). I will use that time to get my family educated and hopefully connected with local beekeepers. I don't know what I don't know, but I think that most willing to lay out this kind of $$ understand that robbing/taping the hive is an integral part of the hive's maintanance and not something that is done just to fill up an empty jar.

Will we be a commercial honey operation, no, but I look forward to integrating a hive into our backyard's horticulture and introducing my family to the amazing intricacies of the honey bee.

[Better.to.Bee.than.not]

Wow, I like this concept...who wouldn't? but they are going to be swamped I am sure with orders at first and I am sure costs will reflect that.

[biggraham610]

I'd probably get some just to play with it. 
  Right now, I will wait for the price to come down.

Ditto. G

[Better.to.Bee.than.not]

Wow. $3,266,877USD
raised of $70,000 goal.

wonder how much people make for writing books on beekeeping comparatively?

[D Coates]

Mind you, they are in Byron Bay which is the hippy capital of Australia for overvalued/overpriced everything from real estate to beekeeping veils woven by Tibetan virgins from Unicorn hair, so anything's possible.

 

[DMLinton]

It's beginning to look more like they won a lottery than successfully raised some venture capital.

[bassman1977]

I am really surprised that they work.  That's awesome though.  I will wait for the price of them to come down and also wait for some time to pass before I put any money into them.  My question with them is regarding how well the honey will drain out not in just conditions where it's cooler, but also with thicker honeys like golden rod.  And as I write this, I wonder if you could put those frames into an extractor, if needed, in case it is cool outside and thick golden rod refuses to flow through this set up.  I know Mr. Bush stated his limited use of these frames already so I don't really expect much for answers...just food for thought.

[DMLinton]

I am really surprised that they work.  That's awesome though.  I will wait for the price of them to come down and also wait for some time to pass before I put any money into them.  My question with them is regarding how well the honey will drain out not in just conditions where it's cooler, but also with thicker honeys like golden rod.  And as I write this, I wonder if you could put those frames into an extractor, if needed, in case it is cool outside and thick golden rod refuses to flow through this set up.  I know Mr. Bush stated his limited use of these frames already so I don't really expect much for answers...just food for thought.

I remain skeptical that they do work because of the complete lack of performance data offered.  Will honey flow out of these things at 10C (50F)?  What does one do if it will not?  What happens if honey does happen to crystalize?  What are the minimum and maximum ambient temperatures that these frames will be functional at? Is there a greater than 90% probability of each of these frames will last at least, say, 10 years if properly cared for?  Is it really a non-issue that traces of honey will remain in those interior channels between extractions?  What happens if the cells are not completely drained?  How many times can the control lever be operated open and closed before the frame achieves a high probability of failure?  Weather records for Byron Bay, Australia, where these frames were developed, show that the weather is quite toasty there pretty well the year around - does that mean those of us up here on the Tundra need be concerned about the viability of these frames in our climate?

I was quite pumped when I first learned of these FlowHive frames.  I am now feeling quite deflated.

[craneman54]

I have been following this thread since it started. Alot of questions have been asked and thoughts revealed.
One area I haven't seen mentioned is those people who also harvest bees wax for making foundation,candles hand creams etc... If you use these Flow frames your wax production will be cut down drastically.
I know the bees have to add wax to the frames so they can store and cap honey in the cells. That wax will be reused by the bees to recap the sells. Therefore less wax to harvest.Even if you can reclaim the wax on Flow frames it would bee less wax than on more conventional frames.
Bees would still have to make wax for the brood and drone cells.  I read somewhere that bees love to make wax. Would the use of these frame still allow the bees to make enough wax to satisfy there desire to make wax?

[MDavid]

I have been following this thread since it started. Alot of questions have been asked and thoughts revealed.
One area I haven't seen mentioned is those people who also harvest bees wax for making foundation,candles hand creams etc... If you use these Flow frames your wax production will be cut down drastically.
I know the bees have to add wax to the frames so they can store and cap honey in the cells. That wax will be reused by the bees to recap the sells. Therefore less wax to harvest.Even if you can reclaim the wax on Flow frames it would bee less wax than on more conventional frames.
Bees would still have to make wax for the brood and drone cells.  I read somewhere that bees love to make wax. Would the use of these frame still allow the bees to make enough wax to satisfy there desire to make wax?

I may be new to all this but, the personification of bees wax making activities seems like an unusual perspective. ..
Now, if you mean that bees 'love' wax making like they 'love' mushroom mycelium for what turns out (after some analysis) to be the antiviral qualities imparted by the mycelium to strength the bees immune response and lengthen their lives - see http://www.beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=46011.0  then I would think their love would be something other than the strictly functional aspects that wax provides within a hive.
Maybe, just maybe the Flow Hive frames aren't best suited for both honey and bees wax harvesting. Isn't this simply an opportunity for another entrepreneurial minded person(s) to come up with another design that would be well suited for both?

[MDavid]

This is my inexperience talking but, what surprises me is that the entire comb is used for honey and that the split doesn't threaten any breading combs? Do bees nicely segregate which combs are going to be used for breeding and which are used for honey? If so, aren't there two sides? What if one side is used for honey and the other for breeding? Or is it a seasonal thing (i.e., honey sometimes, breading others) Again, I'm just short of clueless. Thanks!

[DMLinton]

Bees strongly tend to place only honey in the honey supers, which is the intended use of the FlowHive frames.  Conventional frames would be used in the brood boxes, which are where all brood rearing takes place.  it would be quite unusual for a queen to enter the honey supers as long as her brood area volume is adequate.

[Michael Bush]

>I remain skeptical that they do work because of the complete lack of performance data offered.  Will honey flow out of these things at 10C (50F)?

You should be harvesting frequently during the flow and that would be when it's warm.  A bee hive is pretty much 93F when they are rearing brood.  If you wait until the honey is 50F, it will run far to slow.

> What does one do if it will not?

Harvest sooner.  Of if you waited that long, the bees should be clustered below, so pull the super, put it on the kitchen table and wait for the honey to warm up.  When you are done, put it away for the winter.

> What happens if honey does happen to crystalize?

Again, frequent harvest is the prevention.  Worst case, I would do as I now do with HSC or PermaComb, heat it pretty well, then punch it with a Hackler Honey punch and extract it.  Then you can hose it out if there is still some left.

>  What are the minimum and maximum ambient temperatures that these frames will be functional at?

The action will work at any temperature.  Of course honey does not run when honey is cold.

>Is there a greater than 90% probability of each of these frames will last at least, say, 10 years if properly cared for?

I have no idea.  Time will tell.

>  Is it really a non-issue that traces of honey will remain in those interior channels between extractions?

If you are harvesting frequently it should run out before it's crystallized.  Of course if what was coating the inside of this is crystallized the resulting honey will crystallize quickly.

>  What happens if the cells are not completely drained?

Not a good plan.  Let it finish draining.

>  How many times can the control lever be operated open and closed before the frame achieves a high probability of failure?  Weather records for Byron Bay, Australia, where these frames were developed, show that the weather is quite toasty there pretty well the year around - does that mean those of us up here on the Tundra need be concerned about the viability of these frames in our climate?

Time will tell... no way to know right now.  But they should not be on the hive when it's cold.  They should be removed at the end of the main flow probably so that the cluster will not be in them, and the winter supply of honey will be in the regular boxes.  It would not be good to have the cluster in the Honey Flow box because the queen can't lay eggs in it so the winter cluster would get no opportunity to rear any brood.

>One area I haven't seen mentioned is those people who also harvest bees wax for making foundation,candles hand creams etc...
> If you use these Flow frames your wax production will be cut down drastically.

If all you use for honey is the flow frames wax production is completely eliminated.  You don't even have cappings.  You would need to use regular frames to do that.

[DMLinton]

Michael, I already harvest capped frames, extract and return them during my weekly or bi-weekly inspections, as the case may be.  It is always nice and warm .... except whenr over achievers force me to harvest in late September/early October so that I can finally remove honey supers.

The point I was attempting to make was that the technical information and performance data needs to be associated with the promotion of this technology.  Otherwise, I start to think I can smell something fishy.

[MDavid]

>I remain skeptical that they do work because of the complete lack of performance data offered.  Will honey flow out of these things at 10C (50F)?

You should be harvesting frequently during the flow and that would be when it's warm.  A bee hive is pretty much 93F when they are rearing brood.  If you wait until the honey is 50F, it will run far to slow.

> What does one do if it will not?

Harvest sooner.  Of if you waited that long, the bees should be clustered below, so pull the super, put it on the kitchen table and wait for the honey to warm up.  When you are done, put it away for the winter.

> What happens if honey does happen to crystalize?

Again, frequent harvest is the prevention.  Worst case, I would do as I now do with HSC or PermaComb, heat it pretty well, then punch it with a Hackler Honey punch and extract it.  Then you can hose it out if there is still some left.

>  What are the minimum and maximum ambient temperatures that these frames will be functional at?

The action will work at any temperature.  Of course honey does not run when honey is cold.

>Is there a greater than 90% probability of each of these frames will last at least, say, 10 years if properly cared for?

I have no idea.  Time will tell.

>  Is it really a non-issue that traces of honey will remain in those interior channels between extractions?

If you are harvesting frequently it should run out before it's crystallized.  Of course if what was coating the inside of this is crystallized the resulting honey will crystallize quickly.

>  What happens if the cells are not completely drained?

Not a good plan.  Let it finish draining.

>  How many times can the control lever be operated open and closed before the frame achieves a high probability of failure?  Weather records for Byron Bay, Australia, where these frames were developed, show that the weather is quite toasty there pretty well the year around - does that mean those of us up here on the Tundra need be concerned about the viability of these frames in our climate?

Time will tell... no way to know right now.  But they should not be on the hive when it's cold.  They should be removed at the end of the main flow probably so that the cluster will not be in them, and the winter supply of honey will be in the regular boxes.  It would not be good to have the cluster in the Honey Flow box because the queen can't lay eggs in it so the winter cluster would get no opportunity to rear any brood.

>One area I haven't seen mentioned is those people who also harvest bees wax for making foundation,candles hand creams etc...
> If you use these Flow frames your wax production will be cut down drastically.

If all you use for honey is the flow frames wax production is completely eliminated.  You don't even have cappings.  You would need to use regular frames to do that.

I just ordered your book! - The Practical Beekeeper Volume I

Thanks!

[Richard M]

I think that it is too good to be true from the point of view of cost.  Also, I have not found any information at all on how long these frames might last.  They are primarlly plastic so forever seems out of the question.  Even if they last five to ten years, I do not think the economics work.  I have to crunch the numbers and see what I come up with (this -20 C/-4 F temperature here this morning will have me looking for something to do indoors).

The thing that I keep thinking of is that I figure I will have $12,000 - $15,000 CDN in hive equipment for my near future target of 100 hives.  Adding these frames would cost $50,000 CDN plus shipping and modifying boxes thus nearly quintupling my hive equipment investment. 

To put that into perspective a little more, if I can manage to achieve our current provincial average honey production of 93 lbs/hive at a current wholesale value of about $3/lb, I would have around $70,000 sitting out the field in anticipation of about $30,000 gross annual return.  Even if I put in the extra work and retail my honey at $6-$7/lb, the numbers are still not close to working.

Yes, it would certainly be a big capital investment in anyone's language.

To some extent though, could this not be balanced against reduced labour costs in the longer term? And the need for a truck and lifting gear to load supers, transport to your honey shed, then hours of extracting and then having to take it all back to the hives so they can clean it out etc.

One other thing occurs to me; if you aren't destroying significant amounts of wax by uncapping and damaging comb which will then require repair by the bees, will you not get a greater honey yield by getting better utilisation of nectar that would otherwise have been used to make new wax? (One possible unintended consequence here could be a future shortage of cappings wax to make new foundation.

I guess if you've already got a significant investment in existing equipment, it would be bordering on foolish to abandon it for a new and as-yet, not totally proven technique.

I'm not commercial, never will be, I have an interest in 5 hives and that's all it will ever be. It's attractive to me as a hobbiest, for a number of reasons, not least of which being, as I now keep bees on a small suburban block, that I don't have to disturb my bees at the time of year they're at their tetchiest, to harvest the honey.

Whilst some would take home a message from the ad that you don't need to do any of that nasty getting inside hives thing, we all know that's not true but if possible, I'd prefer to limit most of my hive fettling in this suburban location to the Spring/early Summer when they're not so irritable. Even so, with just my 2 "home hives", it's a sizeable investment to get past the Domestic Finances Manager without her veto.