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Author Topic: Cheap Chinese honey on the shelf.....  (Read 8064 times)

Offline BjornBee

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Cheap Chinese honey on the shelf.....
« on: January 20, 2009, 09:20:10 am »
Imagine if you could, or perhaps remember when you actually have seen it.....looking at a supermarket shelf filled with honey. Imagine seeing that nicely labeled bottle of honey marked $2.99 on the shelf. And after asking yourself "what kind of crap is this?" that they are selling so cheaply, you read the back of the label. And "BAMM!" it as clear as day....."product of China". You roll your eyes, you mumble under your breathe, and put it back.

Now what do some think, or better yet, what are some of the comments we all have heard or expressed ourselves....

1) "Well of course it's cheap, they pay the Chinese beekeepers pennies a day!"

2) "Well of course it's cheap, it's probably tainted"

3) "Well of course it's cheap, it's probably adulterated with sugar"

4) "Well of course it's cheap, it probably watered down"

5) "Well of course it's cheap, they are flooding the market to put the U.S. beekeeper out of business. Afterall, they know we can not make it and sell it this cheap".

Not sure if there are any more comments. But be realistic, seeing that "cheap" Chinese honey selling for ridiculously low prices have made you steam, right? No doubt when we see low priced foreign honey, we automatically start thinking about chemicals, tainting, and adulteration. Afterall, we have seen this very thing in the past. We think of the poor beekeeper being paid pennies in China, to produce honey, to ship over here, to compete with our hard working, unappreciated beekeepers.

Be real. We all think it.

So now, lets do something. Lets go back to that Mississippi store, and lets replace those bottles on that shelf, and put in the honey with the Chinese label. Would we view the product on that shelf a little different? I wonder how many hard working beekeepers would actually even suggest "Don't they know that local beekeepers are being hurt by these low prices and foreign products?" I wonder how many would automatically start making comments about what it goes into making a honey, the hours, the labor, etc. I wonder how many would actually even suggest that poor beekeepers could not even compete and make a dime at those prices.

But I know....It is a local guy selling honey at that store. And some have suggested we should be following his lead "IF he can make a living at those prices". Afterall, he must be doing something right.

But I think that same priced bottle of honey would be viewed a whole lot different, if not for it being that local poor beekeeper, who is just trying to get rid of a few buckets of honey. If that label was marked "made in China", we would automatically assume many bad things. We would think that it was not right. We would be talking about it, as we have many times in the past. How it is killing the industry. How, no wonder beekeepers are declining and we are in the shape we are in. Funny how we assume the beekeeper is not trying to make money, and maybe he just is doing it for a hobby. Yeah right, and maybe that foreign worker in China is just doing it as a hobby also.

I didn't want to kill the other thread.

But I wanted to just make a few observations. Funny how things change when two labels are thrown on that same low-balled jar of honey. And I bet we have all seen another beekeeper, or even someone else in another industry low-ball their competitors, for nothing else but to make up for a lack of selling and marketing skills. China does it...bad, bad, bad! Local guy does it....and it's nothing but slice and dice rationalization at it's best, mixed in with assumptive excuses.

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Offline Scadsobees

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Re: Cheap Chinese honey on the shelf.....
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2009, 05:48:28 pm »
I work for a manufacturing company, and one of our biggest focuses is running lean lean lean so that we can get our price lower than anybody else so we can get more business (as well as develop niches and customer relationships which are as important).  We'd be in the dustbins of bankrupt plastics companies (there are plenty) if we just sit on our duffs and complained about how the other guys sell so much cheaper.  And we do compete with plenty of Chinese, mexican, taiwanese....companies. 

I don't see how any other area of sales really is any different.

Rick
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Offline Robo

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Re: Cheap Chinese honey on the shelf.....
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2009, 06:35:26 pm »
The difference is, how many of your 5 points apply to the Mississippi beekeeper.  I'd venture a guess at 0.   The Chinese do have labor/ethical advantageous,  but what advantages does the Mississippi beekeeper have on other US beekeepers.  Willingness to work for less and take less profit?  Lets face it,  he can only produce just so much with that business model before he kills himself trying to do too much.   Ya he might put a little hurting on a few local beeks, but perhaps he is more efficient then them and making the same profit, so then is he to blame?    Furthermore,  if his prices are so ridiculous for the area, why is there any left on the shelf?  Obviously the market isn't the strongest there.

As far as the Chinese goes,  I do believe we should tighten down on them before we get more dog food/toothpaste or worse issues.  But don't hold your breath,  they own most of our country now thanks to big government hand outs, so I don't see any changes coming too soon or ever.   Now we can all sit here a complain about it, but that doesn't solve the problem.   When your given lemons, you need to make lemonade.   Manufacturing isn't where the profit is anymore, everyone needs to accept that.  BRICK countries have demonstrated that they can do it cheaper and as Krusty the Clown says,  "Not just good, but good enough". AS long as Americans are intent on buying the cheapest they can find than that will not change. Certain politicians want to blame big business, but they are only doing what the market is demanding.  If you want to be successful, you need to move into a market that is ripe,  not receding.  Most of my companies manufacturing is done by contractors for $9/hr, you can get a job at McDonalds for $10/hr, so go figure.   Innovation, technology, and high quality areas are still promising because although the Chinese are good at copying,  but they suck at design.

"Opportunity is missed by most people because it comes dressed in overalls and looks like work." - Thomas Edison



Offline tlynn

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Re: Cheap Chinese honey on the shelf.....
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2009, 10:11:27 pm »
Many people just want the cheapest, but there are many others who will pay more IF they are educated on the differences in quality, performance, safety, etc. 

Offline Fannbee

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Re: Cheap Chinese honey on the shelf.....
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2009, 11:11:52 pm »
Curious...what part of Mississippi was the honey being sold?

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Offline Rodni73

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Re: Cheap Chinese honey on the shelf.....
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2009, 11:56:49 pm »
This is Globalization pure and simple!!!!!  In a few years we will stop growing or producing anything... Just consuming what the third world produces while our high standards of living will fuel the global village!!

Think about it everyone and his grand mother in China, Africa and Asia is investing in the US economy! They are buying our bogus hedge funds and bundled up securities (bad mortgages) like candy and few complained when they lost some of it in the financial melt down.  Want to hear something crazy... countries like Korea are now leasing land in poor African countries and using African people as sharecroppers on their own land to produce everything from tomatoes to honey at a fraction of the price.  In my last business trip in the Middle East I again rented a car and drove all over eastern Turkey, Syria and Northern Lebanon for three weeks.  I visited beekeepers in those countries and they too were screaming murder at the Chinese Honey!!!! Worst in our country we have the FDA and some semblance of border control while there are limited standards or no governmental supervision over there.  Thus, their honey and Chinese made agricultural product are tainted and are putting many of them out of work!!! When I spoke to an official in their agricultural sector regarding the unfairness of these cheap Chinese products to those rural farmers and honest honey producers he just smiled and pointed at the Chinese made AK47 of my escort, then to the made in china tractor, mosquito repellant, and electrical power generator! And suggested in broken English: We subsidized him (their agricultural products) they subsidize all him (their products)! 

The worst is yet to come!

Offline Scadsobees

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Re: Cheap Chinese honey on the shelf.....
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2009, 12:15:39 am »
Another thought that I had....

By focusing on aggressive pricing for local raw honey, we would actually be pricing many many people out of the market.  This would actually drive more people to the super market for the cheap imported honey, driving up imports or decreasing overall local honey consumption.

I'd actually say that the cheap raw local honey will get people's eyes open and taste buds engaged, get them used to good quality honey (assuming that it is), people that normally wouldn't buy the high priced items at the farmers market.  That way they will be more inclined to spend a few extra bucks at the farmer's market if they happen across a beekeeper there with higher priced honey.

Perhaps these lower prices actually help more than hurt.

I'm speaking from experience.  I'm a bargain hunter and will spend the least amount of money possible for a good product.  Yes, I prefer real maple syrup, but I'll eat the cruddy maple flavored pancake corn syrup if I think the real maple syrup costs too much, because I can't afford it..period.  Quality don't matter if you can't afford something.  But I really appreciate somebody who makes the real maple syrup more affordable to me so I can use it.  It isn't hurting the high price maple syrups 'cuz I ain't buying that anyway.  But now, if I was at a farmer's market and didn't have any real maple syrup, and happened on a local vendor, I very well might buy some, even if more expensive.  

I try to target people like me.  People who are going to be found in a feed store who will buy something cheaper on a whim that they might not normally try if they know it is local, quality, and cheap, and they will appreciate it.  Not granola-crunchers with disposable income.

Why does it bother you so much that some beekeepers sell more cheaply?  
Rick

Offline paulh

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Re: Cheap Chinese honey on the shelf.....
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2009, 01:42:32 am »

The worst is yet to come!


I'm very afraid that this is true.   :'(

Offline BjornBee

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Re: Cheap Chinese honey on the shelf.....
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2009, 08:09:14 am »
Why does it bother you so much that some beekeepers sell more cheaply?  

It doesn't.

I'm discussing this to actually HELP others realize what they are selling, what their worth is, and what they could make for their efforts. Even if it is just my individual view.

If NOT for the whole "Everyone keeps telling us we are selling to low" aspect, then it's just another beekeeper selling his goods at giveaway prices. But I like these opportunities to just not talk about "one" seller of honey, but discuss items that every reader from the forum can read, possibly use, and even learn from.

It's not about one side complaining about one side selling low. There is not too much to learn there. But if those beekeepers who sell low, learn anything from those "other" beekeepers, then maybe someone has something to gain. It is only natural, and from years of being in sales I have seen it many times, that some feel the only way they can sell a bottle of their honey is to be the lowest man on the totem poll. And that is not correct. Local raw honey, is considered a premium product by the buying community. The buyers going to that feedstore are shouting that to the owners.

Personally, I think many beekeepers devalue their trade, their profession, and their hobby. Some sell honey cheap, some provide free pollination, and most could not talk their way out of a paperbag if their life depended on it, even if asked the simplest question about bees.

For me, all my hives are rented out on year round contracts (which said could not be done), all my nucs and queens are sold (with twice as much business turned away that I could ever sell), and my honey shelf is always empty due to people coming back and price is not an issue. So your right, why does one store owner in Mississippi bother me...it doesn't. But maybe the thousands of people who will read these threads will learn something. Maybe they will look at things differently. Maybe they will ask a followup question. I do not always look at individuals or individual events. I look at the industry as a whole.

It does not take a whole lot to get into the bee industry from the sense anyone can sell honey. If one was to open a restaurant, I think you either are smart enough to save much money, have worked in the industry, or have some skilled knowledge on the matter, before you open those doors the first night. But for beekeepers, it's something many times not more than a hobby, with people who have no marketing skills, no management skills, who happen to have some honey for sale. These discussions are not about saying "Why respond? "Why do you care?" It's about possibly helping someone. Even if the discussions are debates, go off course, and have personal bias and emotion behind them.

Think about it....we produce less than half of the honey we consume in this country. And we can not even make enough nucs to make up for losses, meaning we are shipping in thousands of packages now. This industry can't even fund a bee lab without begging at the feet of congress when something like CCD hits. But why should others value beekeeping, when beekeepers themselves place little value on it.

I think the bee industry has great expansion opportunities. I think their are many ways we can help each other grow in beekeeping. One guy selling cheap honey means little. But discussions about what local raw honey means to the community, how farmers perceive beekeepers, and other things are all tied together. It may take a grassroots effort to build up the value of what beekeepers do, what we produce, and the value behind it.

Yes, it may be just a hobby to most. But for every 100 hobbyists, perhaps three or four turn it into a sideline. And one of them goes commercial. And we need every one of them. Discussions like this help others see all sides of the issue. What the potential could be, what some may be missing, etc. You do not seek out the unsuccessful, you seek out the successful.

Were discussing one beekeeper in Mississippi. But the real value potential, for those willing to ask it, is the input from those selling 8 dollar a pound jars (what kind of markets, what kind of marketing, etc) and those such as the guy selling 60,000 pounds from his honey house (How did you get started, how do you market, etc.)

Overall, for far too long, beekeeping was unknown to the general public. For too long, people did not realize the value we provide. And for too long, beekeepers themselves did little to change that. And it's time we change that. And discussion like this help, or could help, in so many ways. All started by someone complaining, and "caring" about some guy in Mississippi selling honey.
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Offline bud1

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Re: Cheap Chinese honey on the shelf.....
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2009, 08:47:31 am »
Thanks for your opinion of Mississippi bee keepers bijourn;  Bud Watt,Macon, Mississippi
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Re: Cheap Chinese honey on the shelf.....
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2009, 09:09:53 am »
Though I am not from Mississippi, I dont think Bjorn intent is to bag on Mississippi beeks.

I do believe Bjorn makes a few good points.  When I started beekeeping I shadowed a fairly successful beekeeper local to the area.  I made sure he is in the realm of commercial beekeeping as I wanted to truly understand how to handle a large scale operation instead of just handling 1 or 2 hives.  I paid close attention and see many many different ways to "trim the fat".  However more importantly it educated me enough to know how to start analyzing my costs to beekeep and how much money I need to make selling honey and etc in order to stay out of the red.

I believe it is important for any beek to analyze their own process and track expenses.  Even if its to jot it down in a notebook thru the year.  That way they can look at how expensive it is to run their own operation to include the bottles/labels/bottling to help determine what price they need to set to make if profitable.    Another thing we all need to focus on is WE BEEKS do not have economy of scales, unlike all other industries in this country....  Even look at the average farmer, they have economy of scales with the purchase of anhydrous ammonia and the co-op farming practices with shared combines etc... Tell me one beek that offers to extract your honey for you for a small fee.  I have not found any in my area and decided to become the first to offer such services to other local beeks.  Most of us are running a few hundred hives.  Which means we are dumping huge amounts of money into our hardware.  At $10.00 per deep wooden box it costs 2k just to buy enough boxes to expand a meager 100 hives.  That does not include paint, glue, nails/screws or your time to put it together.  It also doesnt include the frames/foundation.

I will be the first to tell you all I have some of the highest priced honey in the local area where I live and I have no issues selling my honey and we have many many repeat customers.  I would say probably only 5% of our customer base is new and many of them become repeat customers.
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Offline BjornBee

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Re: Cheap Chinese honey on the shelf.....
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2009, 09:10:07 am »
Thanks for your opinion of Mississippi bee keepers bijourn;  Bud Watt,Macon, Mississippi

Thanks Bud. I always think that someone will not understand what I'm saying. And that is why I go to great details sometimes. It's kind of that "See the trees but not the forrest' thing. Or is that "See the forrest, but not the trees"?

Anyways, I'm glad you saw the bigger picture.... ;)
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Offline Scadsobees

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Re: Cheap Chinese honey on the shelf.....
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2009, 09:34:29 am »

I'm discussing this to actually HELP others realize what they are selling, what their worth is, and what they could make for their efforts. Even if it is just my individual view.


I might agree but for comments such as below.  I guess I don't understand the insinuations that it is bad to sell at a lower price, even at a feed store, regardless of reasons.

Quote
And I bet we have all seen another beekeeper, or even someone else in another industry low-ball their competitors, for nothing else but to make up for a lack of selling and marketing skills. China does it...bad, bad, bad! Local guy does it....and it's nothing but slice and dice rationalization at it's best, mixed in with assumptive excuses.

Regardless, I agree with you about beekeeping in general.  There are many many people in my circle that have learned a whole lot about honey and bees(whether they want to or not! :roll:).  And a lot of people eating good honey that normally wouldn't.  Kids getting hooked on real honey.  I never forgot the only real wildflower honey that my mom picked up at a roadside stand.

And I understand that what to me is a hobby to others is more serious.  Finding out what works is important whether you sell for $8/lb at a farmer's market or for $2/lb at a feed store.

Rick

Offline BjornBee

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Re: Cheap Chinese honey on the shelf.....
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2009, 09:55:55 am »

I'm discussing this to actually HELP others realize what they are selling, what their worth is, and what they could make for their efforts. Even if it is just my individual view.


I might agree but for comments such as below.

Quote
And I bet we have all seen another beekeeper, or even someone else in another industry low-ball their competitors, for nothing else but to make up for a lack of selling and marketing skills. China does it...bad, bad, bad! Local guy does it....and it's nothing but slice and dice rationalization at it's best, mixed in with assumptive excuses.



And so what is your point? Your not going to suggest that there is not one beekeeper out there that lacks selling and marketing skills are you?

My above comments were in regards to others making assumptions about this Mississippi seller. I've heard other assume "maybe he was trying to pay his bills", and other assumptions. And so my assumption, that maybe he was selling his honey cheap to make up for his own ignorance, his own lack of selling skills, and his own lack of marketing, is somehow seen as a negative? No, that is not a negative. That is a real potential problem for this beekeeper. And it is a real world situation that actually does happen. Not something to be seen as a negative. And certainly not anything to be thrown back in one's face from not understanding what another was saying from the start.

A real shame he can not come on this site and perhaps learn from others. One fellow beekeeper stopped in that store and gave advice. It was acknowledged that many others said the same thing. But now, the whole idea that this other beekeeper may lack in selling skills or marketing, and that someone suggesting what may be true is a bad thing, and taken as negative, is almost amusing.

Looking at things within an industry, and realizing even negative aspects, such as a beekeeper potentially lacking selling skills, is not unto itself a negative, by the mere fact of acknowledging it. Maybe he has to pay the bills, maybe he lacks selling and marketing skills. You do not use one to make excuses for the other. And you do not assume one to be true, and then think discussing the other is bad.
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Offline BjornBee

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Re: Cheap Chinese honey on the shelf.....
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2009, 09:59:02 am »
Does it not stink when someone changes their post after you respond..... :-D

I think I'll do a CC, and lurk awhile.  ;)
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Offline TwT

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Re: Cheap Chinese honey on the shelf.....
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2009, 08:15:15 pm »
I will give you my take on this , I haven't raised my price in 3 years but probably will this year, I sale my honey $6.50 a pint, $12.00 a quart, $9.50 a pint of cut comb honey, if you don't want to pay that price then buy somewhere else, but for some reason I can't keep up with my orders, drought has killed me the last 3 years, I could sale 3 times as much., Most people that buys cheap honey from store's really doesn't know what good honey taste like or how honey can be adulterated, face it most people just don't know, it's not their fault because they just never knew or cared, they say "its just honey, bee's only make one kind!!!"  when you set up a both buy a few different brand of honey from the stores, let them compare it to your honey, you will sale out if you have a good customer flow, some you just have to show and boy will you....... thats my 2 cents worth on that!

And for the beekeeper that sales honey cheap, some don't really know what price they can get so they sale either what it use to sale for ( if had bee's earlier before) or what they think its worth to them without asking others, some might just have a low demand in their area and have to much so they lower prices to get rid of it, I don't believe when it comes to money they would do it on peruse because they are just hurting themselves if they did and only reason for doing that is not knowing. 2 pennies worth on that also.....

CCD might hurt most but it also helps people learn how important bee's are to those that never knew, I hear it all the time when someone finds out I am a BEEKEEPER!!!!
THAT's ME TO THE LEFT JUST 5 MONTHS FROM NOW!!!!!!!!

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Offline CaptainCanuck

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Re: Cheap Chinese honey on the shelf.....
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2009, 08:33:54 pm »
Hmmmm.....$5.00 per pound x 100 pounds per hive = $500.00 x 300 hives = $150,000 for a part time seasonal job, I think we've found the end to world poverty.

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Re: Cheap Chinese honey on the shelf.....
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2009, 08:58:12 pm »
Just a quick comment:
Sometimes selling too cheap is not the best way to move a product.
 I was at a car show in Carlisle ,PA once and a man had a car similar to many others there,condition ,age collectability. He had a price on his car far below any one else.He did not generate much interest. A guy I know told him to raise the price and he had a better chance to sell because people thought there was a problem with the car.The car sold shortly after raising the price to be comparable with the others.
  The buyer and seller walked away happy!

Offline TwT

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Re: Cheap Chinese honey on the shelf.....
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2009, 09:27:44 pm »
Hmmmm.....$5.00 per pound x 100 pounds per hive = $500.00 x 300 hives = $150,000 for a part time seasonal job, I think we've found the end to world poverty.

you have to come to reality, maybe with a customer base in New York you might do well for yourself, but with that much honey on hand the only way to sale it without becoming a packer yourself is to unload it to a packer, its not that hard to understand!!!! to make it easier to understand its like this, buy a pack of cigarettes for $4.50 the buy a carton for $25.00 , it like that with most everything. they even have fleet insurance  :shock: , and remember being a packer you have employees, transports cost, material cost insurances, plus a place and equipment so not even them packers make that much per bottle, think about it please!!!! look at the prices http://www.honey.com/honeyindustry/statistics.asp
« Last Edit: January 21, 2009, 09:45:11 pm by TwT »
THAT's ME TO THE LEFT JUST 5 MONTHS FROM NOW!!!!!!!!

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Offline Scadsobees

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Re: Cheap Chinese honey on the shelf.....
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2009, 09:35:06 pm »
Does it not stink when someone changes their post after you respond..... :-D

I think I'll do a CC, and lurk awhile.  ;)

My apologies, I was still thinking about it, and I saw you online and was hoping I could get that updated before you replied... :buttkick: ...just some extra thoughts...
Rick

 

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