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Author Topic: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame  (Read 4598 times)

Online The15thMember

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Re: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« Reply #20 on: July 10, 2023, 04:37:29 pm »
How deep the rabbet is , also width and length would be nice.
and how thick the plastic frame rest is

The rabbet is going to be deeper than on the wood boxes. The frame rest is also going to be thicker than the thin sheet metal ones.
ironically, the Betterbee catalog states that you can use their metal frame rests in the poly boxes, but it'll screw up the frame height :cheesy: Well, they didn't say "screw up" but that was the gist :wink:
I noticed that!  This whole thing makes me mad.  I'm going to contact them about it and see what they say.  I just don't understand why they wouldn't make the boxes the right depth!  :angry:
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Re: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« Reply #21 on: July 10, 2023, 10:11:18 pm »
just swags ...
I would think it would make a nice liner for a sheet metal box .. or a plastic box .. high density polyethylene might be nice
or originally designed to have facings on the top and bottom to protect the foam  .. top facing could incorporate frame rests

those just from ideas of what I might do if i had a stack of them and wanted to sell them for commercial use .. styrofoam kinda creeps me out... Be sure to paint exteriors with exterior latex .. UV light will tear them up .. faster than most would believe.
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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2023, 07:40:12 am »
>I use all mediums, which are "supposed" to be 6 5/8 in.

Yes they are supposed to be.

>  I just measured mine from several different companies and all of them, including the boxes from Betterbee, are more like 6 11/16.

Close enough.

> The depth of the frame rest from the top of the box is 11/16

Should be 5/8" but 11/16" is fine.  Apparently that's where your extra 1/16" went and it's a good place for it.  You only have minimal bee space (1/4") at the top with 5/8" and that rapidly gets messed up by propolis on the frame rests.

> and the frames are 6 1/4 in. deep or a hair bigger, depending on the brand.

6 1/4" is correct.

> The poly boxes are 6 1/2 in., for some dumb reason.

That would make better sense with wood since there are more factors involved, like drying and the standard widths etc.

>The crucial question, I suppose, is how deep is the frame rest in the poly boxes, but I have all of them in use at the moment, so I'll get that measurement the next time I'm in the apiary (which will probably be next weekend). 

Actually the crucial thing is more the depth of the boxes.  As long as all your boxes are the correct height and the same height and the frame rest rabbet is the same on all the boxes, they should work fine, but if they are not deep enough that is crucial.

Animal is right on both counts.  Use latex paint.  Be sure to paint the outside at least and I would paint both inside and out since its Styrofoam.
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Re: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2023, 10:04:54 am »
And on the latex paint .. if you paint the top and bottom facings, use Flat or maybe a Satin .. not gloss, or semigloss. Flat has a much higher silica content. The flatter the paint, the more silica. The glossier, the more latex. Wouldn't really matter on the sides, but I' still prefer flat or satin because it will allow the styrofoam to "breathe" a tiny bit.
Otherwise, cycles of varying heat and humidity will cause the latex surfaces to weld and the paint will turn into glue. Dusting with talc after drying could be another option, or addition. I would use PermaWhite Satin plus talc, but only because I already have both.

I would have opted for wax coating the inside, but that would be a whole lot more trouble than paint, and I've been paranoid of doing the wrong things, using chemicals, etc. .. If Michael Bush says paint is ok on the inside, that's good enough for me. ... Unless there's a detail that hasn't been mentioned : If the boxes have already been waxed on the inside .. then, don't paint over the wax. It will turn into a mess
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« Reply #24 on: July 11, 2023, 10:56:33 am »
I haven't kept up with this topic very closely. Is this stuff like styrofoam? Why not coat them with stucco for a strong durable finish?

Phillip
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Re: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« Reply #25 on: July 11, 2023, 11:10:58 am »
Animal is right on both counts.  Use latex paint.  Be sure to paint the outside at least and I would paint both inside and out since its Styrofoam.
And on the latex paint .. if you paint the top and bottom facings, use Flat or maybe a Satin .. not gloss, or semigloss. Flat has a much higher silica content. The flatter the paint, the more silica. The glossier, the more latex. Wouldn't really matter on the sides, but I' still prefer flat or satin because it will allow the styrofoam to "breathe" a tiny bit.
Otherwise, cycles of varying heat and humidity will cause the latex surfaces to weld and the paint will turn into glue. Dusting with talc after drying could be another option, or addition. I would use PermaWhite Satin plus talc, but only because I already have both.

I would have opted for wax coating the inside, but that would be a whole lot more trouble than paint, and I've been paranoid of doing the wrong things, using chemicals, etc. .. If Michael Bush says paint is ok on the inside, that's good enough for me. ... Unless there's a detail that hasn't been mentioned : If the boxes have already been waxed on the inside .. then, don't paint over the wax. It will turn into a mess
I haven't kept up with this topic very closely. Is this stuff like styrofoam? Why not coat them with stucco for a strong durable finish?

Phillip
Guys, I've been using this equipment for months; it was painted in April.  :grin:  Lots of good ideas there, though.  I just used whatever latex paint we had lying around from other outdoor projects.

>I use all mediums, which are "supposed" to be 6 5/8 in.

Yes they are supposed to be.

>  I just measured mine from several different companies and all of them, including the boxes from Betterbee, are more like 6 11/16.

Close enough.

> The depth of the frame rest from the top of the box is 11/16

Should be 5/8" but 11/16" is fine.  Apparently that's where your extra 1/16" went and it's a good place for it.  You only have minimal bee space (1/4") at the top with 5/8" and that rapidly gets messed up by propolis on the frame rests.

> and the frames are 6 1/4 in. deep or a hair bigger, depending on the brand.

6 1/4" is correct.

> The poly boxes are 6 1/2 in., for some dumb reason.

That would make better sense with wood since there are more factors involved, like drying and the standard widths etc.

>The crucial question, I suppose, is how deep is the frame rest in the poly boxes, but I have all of them in use at the moment, so I'll get that measurement the next time I'm in the apiary (which will probably be next weekend). 

Actually the crucial thing is more the depth of the boxes.  As long as all your boxes are the correct height and the same height and the frame rest rabbet is the same on all the boxes, they should work fine, but if they are not deep enough that is crucial.
 
Thanks for the clarification, Michael.
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Re: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« Reply #26 on: July 11, 2023, 02:19:08 pm »
TMI ? oops, sorry. :embarassed:

Well I've learned that my boxes are off from ideal measurements .. no surprise there.

Is a standard frame top bar supposed to be 3/8" where it contacts the support? (mine are 5/16)
or
Is clearance from top of box to top of frame supposed to be 7/16" ? (mine are 3/8)

I cut the rabbet on mine 5/8" and added a heavy galvanized piece of angle that effectively made the rabbet 11/16 and top clearance 3/8


...was thinking that if my stuff was made to "ideal" measurements, stuff from various manufacturers would still fit: even with variations between different manufacturers (if I ever actually buy anything ready made, that is). ... (and yes, it's a disease) :wink: Go ahead and laugh you experienced beeks ...

Ben, weight .. and stucco would tend to crack if applied over styrofoam that gets bumped, pried on, or moved.
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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« Reply #27 on: July 11, 2023, 03:06:23 pm »
>Is a standard frame top bar supposed to be 3/8" where it contacts the support? (mine are 5/16)

I'm not clear that the question is, but the thickness of the top bar is 3/8"  But since it's usually sloped it's hard to say exactly.  But maybe that's what you're getting at.  3/8" thick leaving 1/4" when the frame is on the rest.

>Is clearance from top of box to top of frame supposed to be 7/16" ? (mine are 3/8)

It should be 1/4"

>I cut the rabbet on mine 5/8" and added a heavy galvanized piece of angle that effectively made the rabbet 11/16 and top clearance 3/8

At 5/8" rabbet it should be 3/8" for the top bar and another 1/4" to the top which is 5/8" total.

>Ben, weight .. and stucco would tend to crack if applied over styrofoam that gets bumped, pried on, or moved.

I'm not sure the thermal qualities of the stucco would be right and it would change the inside dimensions.
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« Reply #28 on: July 11, 2023, 04:49:16 pm »
"Michael Bush"
>Ben, weight .. and stucco would tend to crack if applied over styrofoam that gets bumped, pried on, or moved.


Thanks
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Re: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« Reply #29 on: July 11, 2023, 06:39:01 pm »
Mr Bush ... Thank You Very Much !

You were able to answer my question even though I asked it wrong ... 5/8 must have been a brain fart when I gave the dimension of the rabbet .. 3/4 is what they actually are..

so to standardize my boxes the addition of a 1/16 spacer under the galvanized rail will do it. (new ones will be cut with 11/16 depth to yield 5/8)
Also, the top rail of my frames are 1/16 thinner than standard ... glad to know they should be 3/8 ... beefier better !
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Offline Bill Murray

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Re: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« Reply #30 on: July 11, 2023, 11:34:22 pm »
So 8 frames in the Honey supers hopefully the pics come out.
Also I posted this before dependent on where you get your boxes. Bee space can be cut at the bottom or top. If its cut at the top all good if all your boxes are cut at the bottom all good. But if some are cut at the top and some at the bottom and you mix and match BAD

As for 8 frames in supers. 2 less frames to uncap and spin. You also get more honey, per box. But I found my wax to fall considerably.

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« Reply #31 on: July 12, 2023, 08:04:43 am »
With drawn comb you can put 7 or even 6 in an eight frame box to get fat combs that are easy to uncap.
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« Reply #33 on: July 14, 2023, 08:04:39 pm »
I got the interior measurements today.  The frame rest in the poly boxes are 7/8 in. deep.  I couldn't get the frame rests removed, they were stuck down too good (to be fair, it was very hot today, and I didn't try very hard.  :wink:)  I also contacted BetterBee about it yesterday, and they told me that the BeeMax boxes are supposed to be 6 1/2 in., but their wooden boxes are 6 5/8 in.  So, yeah.  I also found today when I was measuring that the top box (which used to be on the bottom) has been chewed like crazy by the bees where the entrance used to be.  I'm starting to really hate these things.  The boxes, not the bees.  :oops:
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Re: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« Reply #34 on: July 15, 2023, 02:20:03 pm »
If you don't care about the height of the box being short, adding 1/4 x 1/4 square stock under the frame rest will correct the top to 5/8.

https://www.hobbylobby.com/Crafts-Hobbies/Wood-Crafts-Blank-Surfaces/Craft-Wood/Hardwood-Square-Dowel---1-4%22/p/21680
or at lowes : https://www.lowes.com/pd/Madison-Mill-Square-Wood-Poplar-Dowel-Actual-36-in-L-x-0-25-in-dia/3041501

Adding it to the top, I would think it would need to be 3/8 x 1/4 laid flat ... don't know where to get that .. but PVC (or wood) lattice strip is available in 1/4" thickness if you have the ability to rip cut it. or screen bead if you feel like doing a lot of whittling
https://www.lowes.com/pd/3-4-in-x-8-ft-Interior-Exterior-Pine-Wood-Screen-Trim-Actual-0-75-in-x-8-ft/1000443571?cm_mmc=shp-_-c-_-prd-_-mlw-_-ggl-_-LIA_MLW_122_Mouldings-Specialty-Millwork-_-1000443571-_-local-_-0-_-0&gclid=CjwKCAjwh8mlBhB_EiwAsztdBP4ndUgEIkTpYjyyKA9oiGLwbTJ9Pup2UI6cvudmslffxKEKjW23YRoCe3QQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

I know how I would fix both frame rest and box height with one piece, but ... I'll try to think of a way that it could be easily done... forming sheet metal precisely isn't.
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Online The15thMember

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Re: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« Reply #35 on: July 15, 2023, 03:07:32 pm »
If you don't care about the height of the box being short, adding 1/4 x 1/4 square stock under the frame rest will correct the top to 5/8.

https://www.hobbylobby.com/Crafts-Hobbies/Wood-Crafts-Blank-Surfaces/Craft-Wood/Hardwood-Square-Dowel---1-4%22/p/21680
or at lowes : https://www.lowes.com/pd/Madison-Mill-Square-Wood-Poplar-Dowel-Actual-36-in-L-x-0-25-in-dia/3041501

Adding it to the top, I would think it would need to be 3/8 x 1/4 laid flat ... don't know where to get that .. but PVC (or wood) lattice strip is available in 1/4" thickness if you have the ability to rip cut it. or screen bead if you feel like doing a lot of whittling
https://www.lowes.com/pd/3-4-in-x-8-ft-Interior-Exterior-Pine-Wood-Screen-Trim-Actual-0-75-in-x-8-ft/1000443571?cm_mmc=shp-_-c-_-prd-_-mlw-_-ggl-_-LIA_MLW_122_Mouldings-Specialty-Millwork-_-1000443571-_-local-_-0-_-0&gclid=CjwKCAjwh8mlBhB_EiwAsztdBP4ndUgEIkTpYjyyKA9oiGLwbTJ9Pup2UI6cvudmslffxKEKjW23YRoCe3QQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

I know how I would fix both frame rest and box height with one piece, but ... I'll try to think of a way that it could be easily done... forming sheet metal precisely isn't.
Thanks, animal.  Yeah, with building, to steal a quote from the movie Margin Call, "speak to me like I'm a 5 year old or a very smart golden retriever."  :grin:  A lack of construction skill is my biggest weakness as a beekeeper; I definitely won't attempt anything difficult here.   

I got another e-mail from the folks at BetterBee, and the lady mentioned that I may have the frame rests installed incorrectly.  I asked some clarifying questions, because I'm not entirely sure what she meant when she attempted to describe it to me, so I'll have to wait until she gets back to me on that.   
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Re: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« Reply #36 on: July 15, 2023, 04:08:58 pm »
if installed incorrectly.. dunno, never seen one but ...

maybe ... if the "L" shaped frame rest has a thin side and a thick side .. the thick side should rest on the rabbet.

or if both legs of the "L" are the same thickness but different lengths, and there is a channel in the wall at the top of the rabbet, it may be upside down. ... possibly should be the long side laying on the rabbet with short side pointing up. This might  "look wrong" since the frame would rest on an edge rather than on a shelf, but could still be right... and would be less prone to sticking to the frames.
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Online The15thMember

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Re: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« Reply #37 on: July 17, 2023, 11:43:49 am »
Okay, so here is a video that Betterbee sent me.  Frame rest installation starts at 1:30.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSSbu49mtwQ
Apparently they are supposed to go in with the L right side up and the short leg just stuck into the wall.  That might change the spacing enough to correct my problems.  They REALLY should have included that bit of information in the assembly instructions, that isn't even slightly intuitive! 
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Re: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« Reply #38 on: July 17, 2023, 12:31:33 pm »
So the rabbet & channel is made like I originally thought it might be ... but they use an "L" instead of an upside down "F" like my imagination suggested  :embarassed:

"They REALLY should have included that bit of information in the assembly instructions, that isn't even slightly intuitive! "

No kidding !  :shocked:.. and maybe even mention the youtube video in the instructions ... and website/catalog for that matter.
I can't imagine why they molded the styrofoam the way they did. If the rabbet was higher, the rails would fit the way you put them in. They wouldn't need the additional channel.  You could use standard metal ones if you wanted. .. plus the box height..

Also, the way they have it, the force from the weight of the frames is concentrated on the inner 90 degree bend in the plastic support rail .. unless the inner bend is rounded to distribute it

Well, hopefully, they'll work better for you now.....Thanks for posting the solution to the puzzle.
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Offline yes2matt

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Re: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« Reply #39 on: July 18, 2023, 09:56:45 am »
Member when I switched to poly I switched hive tools for this reason-- no space to slide frames around.  I used to use the "pry bar/scraper" style with the flat blade on one end and the 90* blade on the other. Now I use the flat blade and frame hook style.  I like it! But the particular one I have is too long; Bill Murray has one that he custom made about 6 inches long with the frame hook on it, is ideal.

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