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Author Topic: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame  (Read 4601 times)

Offline The15thMember

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Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« on: May 15, 2023, 09:15:05 pm »
I have used 8 frame mediums since I started beekeeping, but this year, as I have mentioned before, I got a 10 frame poly hive to try out.  I would have gotten it in 8 frame, but the company I decided on didn't offer it.  I have noticed that the spacing is much tighter in the 10 frame boxes.  I can easily get my index finger beside the end frames in my 8 frame boxes when the frames are pushed together, but I can barely get the end frames in and out of the 10 frame hive.  Is the frame spacing tighter in all 10 frame boxes?  Or is it just something with this poly hive? 
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Re: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2023, 09:34:36 pm »
Reagan my wood boxes have the little extra space. Though home built they are the same measurement as a commercial box.. 

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Offline Occam

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Re: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2023, 09:54:00 pm »
My 10 frame box fit slightly loosely,  maybe 3/8ths of an inch when pressed together. Well...they did until either I didn't have them tightened in properly last year or the bees pushed them apart with propolis  (I'm guessing my error) and now the box with those frames is quite tight since the made the comb deeper.

Those were my initial brood frames in my nuc box so they'll be phased out after this harvest season. I moved them above the queen excluder, they'll be used in traps after this
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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2023, 07:36:44 am »
The eight frame hives have about 1-1/4" inches extra when you put eight standard frames in them.  The ten frame hives have about 3/4" extra.  ALWAYS put all the frames tight to the middle until they are drawn, at least and keep them that way unless there is some reason not to.  The most common reason not to is that you are violating the rule of putting all frames back where they came from and a bulge makes it inadvisable.  Two bulges together where the bees can't get between them often leads to small hive beetle larvae.  I shave mine down  to 1-1/4" (from 1-3/8") and put 9 frames in the eight frame boxes and when I had ten frames, 11 frames in a ten frame box.  There was about 1/2" of extra space then.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2023, 08:12:41 am »
Short answer yes.  I don't know the reasoning.
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Offline The15thMember

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Re: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2023, 12:38:48 pm »
Hm, strange.  I wonder why it's different.  It's certainly not a problem, but it is noticeable, so I was just curious.  Thanks guys. 
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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2023, 03:34:56 pm »
Back in the early days of L.L. Langstroth's new hive, there were 8, 10 and 12 frame boxes.  There isn't an exact standard for 8 frame.  They are sometimes an outside width of 14", 13-3/4", 13-1/2" or 13-1/4".  I'm not sure why.  Today you find them mostly in either 14" or 13-3/4".  If you buy them from Western Bee Supply (owned by Dadant but they sell equipment separately as well) they will ask you what size eight frame you want and they will make them any size from 13-1/4" to 14".  If I did that I would probably order them 14" only because I like to put 9 frames in and with the 14" you can just cram 9 frames in with standard frames and with narrow frames (like I use) I would have a little to spare.  But if I were trying to make them universal (mix and match) 13-7/8" would be half way between the two common sizes so that would make sense as a compromise.  If you expect to buy all of your boxes from Western Bee Supply, and you really want to run 8 frames, you could order them 13" wide.  That's (8 frames x 1.375" per hoffman frame) + (0.25 x 2 for the beespace between the outside frames and the wall) + (2 x .75 for the outside wall thicknesses) = 13"
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Offline Oldbeavo

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Re: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2023, 07:24:28 pm »
In the Paradise 8 frame polystyrene you can fit 9 frames with only about 1/4" space. We put 9 new frames in a super to make sure they are drawn straight but go back to 8 once drawn.
You can run 9 in the brood box but to me there is not enough space to work the frames. So we go back to 8 frames in the brood and they are a delight to work. They have about 1 1/2" space but you don't roll bees and once the sides of the frames gather a bit of wax/propolys they are quite stable.
I would just run 9 frames as it is ample space for the queen to lay, and makes life easier.

Offline Lesgold

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Re: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2023, 05:01:14 am »
Reagan,

We have the same issue here in Australia. There is more wriggle room in 8 frame boxes than in ten framers. Somewhere in the past, there may have been a slight mathematical design error or perhaps there is a reason for this. Would love to know the answer. When I first started out in beekeeping, I looked up dimensions of a box on the net and set about to make 12 full depth dovetailed supers. Later on down the track I found that the dimensions that I used made a box that was 14mm wider than the standard dimension. I must admit, they are a delight to work with and can still be used with the rest of my boxes. I do however, try to keep them together.

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2023, 06:05:14 am »
I agree that some "wiggle room" on the outside edges is nice. Of course, if there is too much they will try to build a comb in there...  But if you space the frames further apart you get fat comb at the top (with honey) and skinny comb where the brood is which makes for uneven combs.  Especially if they decide to build on one side of the gap an extra fat one and on the other side even with the brood.  That frame can't go anywhere else...  I found that if I spaced the frames further apart the problem got bigger.  When I shaved them down to 1-1/4" (32mm) from the usual 1-3/8" (35 mm) combs were straighter and not s uneven.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2023, 08:40:35 am »
In honey boxes I spaced the frames further apart when I had frames that were harvested the year before.  fatter frames makes it easier to cut the caps off.  You must always leave enough honey for the bees so there was never a problem of brood in the honey frames.
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Offline The15thMember

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Re: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2023, 05:58:10 pm »
I did some rearranging in the Beemax poly hive today; since the bees weren't really using the bottom box, I moved it to the top of the hive so they had more room for the sourwood flow.  After doing this, I'm convinced that the spacing between the boxes of this equipment is not correct.  I noticed when I bought this hive that when I set a box on the floor, the frames popped up slightly, because they actually hang below the level of the box.  As a result, the bees had stuck some of the frames in the bottom box to the bottom board.  On top of that, every single time I open this hive, the bees have built comb between the inner cover and the top bars of the top box.  It's really frustrating.  I'm definitely not buying any more of this equipment.  I don't like the frame spacing on the rests or between the boxes, it's nearly impossible not to gouge into the poly with my hive tool when I crack the boxes, and the 10 frame supers are borderline too heavy for me to lift.
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Re: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2023, 06:25:25 pm »
It sounds like a little shaving of frames as per Michael Bush would solve side clearance

and the addition of a spacer in the rabbet that the frames rest on may solve the problems of sticking and top comb building.

I looked up the hive.. it's polystyrene. If it were full density solid, it would be very heavy, so it must be hollow or a very high density foam similar to PVC board .. can you tell which ?
(this might be a very easy fix)

and measurement of the depth of the rabbet ? and/or actual height of the box ?

just found a good picture .. it looked like a medium-low density polystyrene foam ... like a "tough" version of a styrofoam ice chest ... like those made for shipping ... is that right?
If this is the case, it would need to have a piece on top of the rabbet to protect the foam from the frames... it may have a piece missing
« Last Edit: July 09, 2023, 06:43:23 pm by animal »
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Re: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2023, 07:32:43 pm »
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Offline The15thMember

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Re: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2023, 12:04:30 am »
does it have this piece in it?
https://www.betterbee.com/hardware/pfr1-plastic-frame-rest.asp
Yes, the boxes all contain the plastic frame rests.

It sounds like a little shaving of frames as per Michael Bush would solve side clearance
I could do that, but I don't want to mess up the correct spacing in all my other boxes, and I want to be able to freely interchange my frames, so I'll just have to live with the horizontal spacing issue.

and the addition of a spacer in the rabbet that the frames rest on may solve the problems of sticking and top comb building.

I looked up the hive.. it's polystyrene. If it were full density solid, it would be very heavy, so it must be hollow or a very high density foam similar to PVC board .. can you tell which ?
(this might be a very easy fix)

and measurement of the depth of the rabbet ? and/or actual height of the box ?

just found a good picture .. it looked like a medium-low density polystyrene foam ... like a "tough" version of a styrofoam ice chest ... like those made for shipping ... is that right?
If this is the case, it would need to have a piece on top of the rabbet to protect the foam from the frames... it may have a piece missing
Yes, it's higher density polystyrene bead foam.  I can get you the measurements tomorrow.  It's possible that some additional height on the frame rest would solve the problem. 
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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2023, 06:39:00 am »
I have an assortment of widths.  I can put any frame anywhere except I can't fill that 1-1/4" gap if they are all wide frames, and then I can only get 8 frames in.  Usually I have 9.
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Re: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2023, 10:16:06 am »
Betterbee says same as their other boxes, wood box says 9-1/2
Dadant says it is 9-5/8

My homemade ones (supposedly "standard" but I'm thinking there's more than one standard now) are 9-5/8 with 9-1/8 frames. with frames installed, top of box to top of frame is 3/8 .. bottom of frame to bottom of box 1/8
top of box to top of support rail 11/16
if this isn't standard, I hope someone will correct me before I build the next box

So.. if yours are 9-1/2, have the same top spacing and frame height as mine, you would have zero bottom clearance for frames on a flat surface. Any warpage or even slight oversizing (or even not completely vertical) of the frames would cause them to pop up when you set it on the floor.

If all it needs is jacking up the frames, the easy way to do it depends on how the plastic frame rest is made .. just guessing by the photo, suspect it has cross section that looks like an "F" (installed like an "upside down" F) ... with the frame resting on the bottom of the F , the top of the F pressed into a channel cut in the styrofoam , and the middle tail on top of the rabbet ... would also suspect that it has barbs to catch in the channel and on top of the rabbet that you can't see after it is installed.
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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2023, 10:38:35 am »
Width of standard frame (regardless of depth) is 1-3/8".  I shave mine to 1-1/4"
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Offline The15thMember

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Re: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2023, 11:58:51 am »
If all it needs is jacking up the frames, the easy way to do it depends on how the plastic frame rest is made .. just guessing by the photo, suspect it has cross section that looks like an "F" (installed like an "upside down" F) ... with the frame resting on the bottom of the F , the top of the F pressed into a channel cut in the styrofoam , and the middle tail on top of the rabbet ... would also suspect that it has barbs to catch in the channel and on top of the rabbet that you can't see after it is installed.
The frame rest isn't shaped like a F, it's shaped like an L.  I just turned it upside down and laid it on the frame rest cut into the poly.  It would have been nicer the way you described it, because then I wouldn't have had to worry about the little plastic pieces falling out and getting lost before I had the equipment in use and the bees stuck them down. 

Betterbee says same as their other boxes, wood box says 9-1/2
Dadant says it is 9-5/8

My homemade ones (supposedly "standard" but I'm thinking there's more than one standard now) are 9-5/8 with 9-1/8 frames. with frames installed, top of box to top of frame is 3/8 .. bottom of frame to bottom of box 1/8
top of box to top of support rail 11/16
if this isn't standard, I hope someone will correct me before I build the next box

So.. if yours are 9-1/2, have the same top spacing and frame height as mine, you would have zero bottom clearance for frames on a flat surface. Any warpage or even slight oversizing (or even not completely vertical) of the frames would cause them to pop up when you set it on the floor.

I use all mediums, which are "supposed" to be 6 5/8 in.  I just measured mine from several different companies and all of them, including the boxes from Betterbee, are more like 6 11/16.  The depth of the frame rest from the top of the box is 11/16, and the frames are 6 1/4 in. deep or a hair bigger, depending on the brand.  The poly boxes are 6 1/2 in., for some dumb reason.  :angry:  The crucial question, I suppose, is how deep is the frame rest in the poly boxes, but I have all of them in use at the moment, so I'll get that measurement the next time I'm in the apiary (which will probably be next weekend).       
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Re: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« Reply #19 on: July 10, 2023, 12:35:53 pm »
  The crucial question, I suppose, is how deep is the frame rest in the poly boxes, but I have all of them in use at the moment, so I'll get that measurement the next time I'm in the apiary (which will probably be next weekend).       

How deep the rabbet is , also width and length would be nice.
and how thick the plastic frame rest is

The rabbet is going to be deeper than on the wood boxes. The frame rest is also going to be thicker than the thin sheet metal ones.
ironically, the Betterbee catalog states that you can use their metal frame rests in the poly boxes, but it'll screw up the frame height :cheesy: Well, they didn't say "screw up" but that was the gist :wink:
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Offline The15thMember

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Re: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« Reply #20 on: July 10, 2023, 04:37:29 pm »
How deep the rabbet is , also width and length would be nice.
and how thick the plastic frame rest is

The rabbet is going to be deeper than on the wood boxes. The frame rest is also going to be thicker than the thin sheet metal ones.
ironically, the Betterbee catalog states that you can use their metal frame rests in the poly boxes, but it'll screw up the frame height :cheesy: Well, they didn't say "screw up" but that was the gist :wink:
I noticed that!  This whole thing makes me mad.  I'm going to contact them about it and see what they say.  I just don't understand why they wouldn't make the boxes the right depth!  :angry:
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Re: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« Reply #21 on: July 10, 2023, 10:11:18 pm »
just swags ...
I would think it would make a nice liner for a sheet metal box .. or a plastic box .. high density polyethylene might be nice
or originally designed to have facings on the top and bottom to protect the foam  .. top facing could incorporate frame rests

those just from ideas of what I might do if i had a stack of them and wanted to sell them for commercial use .. styrofoam kinda creeps me out... Be sure to paint exteriors with exterior latex .. UV light will tear them up .. faster than most would believe.
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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2023, 07:40:12 am »
>I use all mediums, which are "supposed" to be 6 5/8 in.

Yes they are supposed to be.

>  I just measured mine from several different companies and all of them, including the boxes from Betterbee, are more like 6 11/16.

Close enough.

> The depth of the frame rest from the top of the box is 11/16

Should be 5/8" but 11/16" is fine.  Apparently that's where your extra 1/16" went and it's a good place for it.  You only have minimal bee space (1/4") at the top with 5/8" and that rapidly gets messed up by propolis on the frame rests.

> and the frames are 6 1/4 in. deep or a hair bigger, depending on the brand.

6 1/4" is correct.

> The poly boxes are 6 1/2 in., for some dumb reason.

That would make better sense with wood since there are more factors involved, like drying and the standard widths etc.

>The crucial question, I suppose, is how deep is the frame rest in the poly boxes, but I have all of them in use at the moment, so I'll get that measurement the next time I'm in the apiary (which will probably be next weekend). 

Actually the crucial thing is more the depth of the boxes.  As long as all your boxes are the correct height and the same height and the frame rest rabbet is the same on all the boxes, they should work fine, but if they are not deep enough that is crucial.

Animal is right on both counts.  Use latex paint.  Be sure to paint the outside at least and I would paint both inside and out since its Styrofoam.
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Re: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2023, 10:04:54 am »
And on the latex paint .. if you paint the top and bottom facings, use Flat or maybe a Satin .. not gloss, or semigloss. Flat has a much higher silica content. The flatter the paint, the more silica. The glossier, the more latex. Wouldn't really matter on the sides, but I' still prefer flat or satin because it will allow the styrofoam to "breathe" a tiny bit.
Otherwise, cycles of varying heat and humidity will cause the latex surfaces to weld and the paint will turn into glue. Dusting with talc after drying could be another option, or addition. I would use PermaWhite Satin plus talc, but only because I already have both.

I would have opted for wax coating the inside, but that would be a whole lot more trouble than paint, and I've been paranoid of doing the wrong things, using chemicals, etc. .. If Michael Bush says paint is ok on the inside, that's good enough for me. ... Unless there's a detail that hasn't been mentioned : If the boxes have already been waxed on the inside .. then, don't paint over the wax. It will turn into a mess
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Re: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« Reply #24 on: July 11, 2023, 10:56:33 am »
I haven't kept up with this topic very closely. Is this stuff like styrofoam? Why not coat them with stucco for a strong durable finish?

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Re: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« Reply #25 on: July 11, 2023, 11:10:58 am »
Animal is right on both counts.  Use latex paint.  Be sure to paint the outside at least and I would paint both inside and out since its Styrofoam.
And on the latex paint .. if you paint the top and bottom facings, use Flat or maybe a Satin .. not gloss, or semigloss. Flat has a much higher silica content. The flatter the paint, the more silica. The glossier, the more latex. Wouldn't really matter on the sides, but I' still prefer flat or satin because it will allow the styrofoam to "breathe" a tiny bit.
Otherwise, cycles of varying heat and humidity will cause the latex surfaces to weld and the paint will turn into glue. Dusting with talc after drying could be another option, or addition. I would use PermaWhite Satin plus talc, but only because I already have both.

I would have opted for wax coating the inside, but that would be a whole lot more trouble than paint, and I've been paranoid of doing the wrong things, using chemicals, etc. .. If Michael Bush says paint is ok on the inside, that's good enough for me. ... Unless there's a detail that hasn't been mentioned : If the boxes have already been waxed on the inside .. then, don't paint over the wax. It will turn into a mess
I haven't kept up with this topic very closely. Is this stuff like styrofoam? Why not coat them with stucco for a strong durable finish?

Phillip
Guys, I've been using this equipment for months; it was painted in April.  :grin:  Lots of good ideas there, though.  I just used whatever latex paint we had lying around from other outdoor projects.

>I use all mediums, which are "supposed" to be 6 5/8 in.

Yes they are supposed to be.

>  I just measured mine from several different companies and all of them, including the boxes from Betterbee, are more like 6 11/16.

Close enough.

> The depth of the frame rest from the top of the box is 11/16

Should be 5/8" but 11/16" is fine.  Apparently that's where your extra 1/16" went and it's a good place for it.  You only have minimal bee space (1/4") at the top with 5/8" and that rapidly gets messed up by propolis on the frame rests.

> and the frames are 6 1/4 in. deep or a hair bigger, depending on the brand.

6 1/4" is correct.

> The poly boxes are 6 1/2 in., for some dumb reason.

That would make better sense with wood since there are more factors involved, like drying and the standard widths etc.

>The crucial question, I suppose, is how deep is the frame rest in the poly boxes, but I have all of them in use at the moment, so I'll get that measurement the next time I'm in the apiary (which will probably be next weekend). 

Actually the crucial thing is more the depth of the boxes.  As long as all your boxes are the correct height and the same height and the frame rest rabbet is the same on all the boxes, they should work fine, but if they are not deep enough that is crucial.
 
Thanks for the clarification, Michael.
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Re: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« Reply #26 on: July 11, 2023, 02:19:08 pm »
TMI ? oops, sorry. :embarassed:

Well I've learned that my boxes are off from ideal measurements .. no surprise there.

Is a standard frame top bar supposed to be 3/8" where it contacts the support? (mine are 5/16)
or
Is clearance from top of box to top of frame supposed to be 7/16" ? (mine are 3/8)

I cut the rabbet on mine 5/8" and added a heavy galvanized piece of angle that effectively made the rabbet 11/16 and top clearance 3/8


...was thinking that if my stuff was made to "ideal" measurements, stuff from various manufacturers would still fit: even with variations between different manufacturers (if I ever actually buy anything ready made, that is). ... (and yes, it's a disease) :wink: Go ahead and laugh you experienced beeks ...

Ben, weight .. and stucco would tend to crack if applied over styrofoam that gets bumped, pried on, or moved.
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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« Reply #27 on: July 11, 2023, 03:06:23 pm »
>Is a standard frame top bar supposed to be 3/8" where it contacts the support? (mine are 5/16)

I'm not clear that the question is, but the thickness of the top bar is 3/8"  But since it's usually sloped it's hard to say exactly.  But maybe that's what you're getting at.  3/8" thick leaving 1/4" when the frame is on the rest.

>Is clearance from top of box to top of frame supposed to be 7/16" ? (mine are 3/8)

It should be 1/4"

>I cut the rabbet on mine 5/8" and added a heavy galvanized piece of angle that effectively made the rabbet 11/16 and top clearance 3/8

At 5/8" rabbet it should be 3/8" for the top bar and another 1/4" to the top which is 5/8" total.

>Ben, weight .. and stucco would tend to crack if applied over styrofoam that gets bumped, pried on, or moved.

I'm not sure the thermal qualities of the stucco would be right and it would change the inside dimensions.
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Re: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« Reply #28 on: July 11, 2023, 04:49:16 pm »
"Michael Bush"
>Ben, weight .. and stucco would tend to crack if applied over styrofoam that gets bumped, pried on, or moved.


Thanks
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Re: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« Reply #29 on: July 11, 2023, 06:39:01 pm »
Mr Bush ... Thank You Very Much !

You were able to answer my question even though I asked it wrong ... 5/8 must have been a brain fart when I gave the dimension of the rabbet .. 3/4 is what they actually are..

so to standardize my boxes the addition of a 1/16 spacer under the galvanized rail will do it. (new ones will be cut with 11/16 depth to yield 5/8)
Also, the top rail of my frames are 1/16 thinner than standard ... glad to know they should be 3/8 ... beefier better !
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Re: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« Reply #30 on: July 11, 2023, 11:34:22 pm »
So 8 frames in the Honey supers hopefully the pics come out.
Also I posted this before dependent on where you get your boxes. Bee space can be cut at the bottom or top. If its cut at the top all good if all your boxes are cut at the bottom all good. But if some are cut at the top and some at the bottom and you mix and match BAD

As for 8 frames in supers. 2 less frames to uncap and spin. You also get more honey, per box. But I found my wax to fall considerably.

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Re: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« Reply #31 on: July 12, 2023, 08:04:43 am »
With drawn comb you can put 7 or even 6 in an eight frame box to get fat combs that are easy to uncap.
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Re: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« Reply #33 on: July 14, 2023, 08:04:39 pm »
I got the interior measurements today.  The frame rest in the poly boxes are 7/8 in. deep.  I couldn't get the frame rests removed, they were stuck down too good (to be fair, it was very hot today, and I didn't try very hard.  :wink:)  I also contacted BetterBee about it yesterday, and they told me that the BeeMax boxes are supposed to be 6 1/2 in., but their wooden boxes are 6 5/8 in.  So, yeah.  I also found today when I was measuring that the top box (which used to be on the bottom) has been chewed like crazy by the bees where the entrance used to be.  I'm starting to really hate these things.  The boxes, not the bees.  :oops:
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Re: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« Reply #34 on: July 15, 2023, 02:20:03 pm »
If you don't care about the height of the box being short, adding 1/4 x 1/4 square stock under the frame rest will correct the top to 5/8.

https://www.hobbylobby.com/Crafts-Hobbies/Wood-Crafts-Blank-Surfaces/Craft-Wood/Hardwood-Square-Dowel---1-4%22/p/21680
or at lowes : https://www.lowes.com/pd/Madison-Mill-Square-Wood-Poplar-Dowel-Actual-36-in-L-x-0-25-in-dia/3041501

Adding it to the top, I would think it would need to be 3/8 x 1/4 laid flat ... don't know where to get that .. but PVC (or wood) lattice strip is available in 1/4" thickness if you have the ability to rip cut it. or screen bead if you feel like doing a lot of whittling
https://www.lowes.com/pd/3-4-in-x-8-ft-Interior-Exterior-Pine-Wood-Screen-Trim-Actual-0-75-in-x-8-ft/1000443571?cm_mmc=shp-_-c-_-prd-_-mlw-_-ggl-_-LIA_MLW_122_Mouldings-Specialty-Millwork-_-1000443571-_-local-_-0-_-0&gclid=CjwKCAjwh8mlBhB_EiwAsztdBP4ndUgEIkTpYjyyKA9oiGLwbTJ9Pup2UI6cvudmslffxKEKjW23YRoCe3QQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

I know how I would fix both frame rest and box height with one piece, but ... I'll try to think of a way that it could be easily done... forming sheet metal precisely isn't.
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Re: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« Reply #35 on: July 15, 2023, 03:07:32 pm »
If you don't care about the height of the box being short, adding 1/4 x 1/4 square stock under the frame rest will correct the top to 5/8.

https://www.hobbylobby.com/Crafts-Hobbies/Wood-Crafts-Blank-Surfaces/Craft-Wood/Hardwood-Square-Dowel---1-4%22/p/21680
or at lowes : https://www.lowes.com/pd/Madison-Mill-Square-Wood-Poplar-Dowel-Actual-36-in-L-x-0-25-in-dia/3041501

Adding it to the top, I would think it would need to be 3/8 x 1/4 laid flat ... don't know where to get that .. but PVC (or wood) lattice strip is available in 1/4" thickness if you have the ability to rip cut it. or screen bead if you feel like doing a lot of whittling
https://www.lowes.com/pd/3-4-in-x-8-ft-Interior-Exterior-Pine-Wood-Screen-Trim-Actual-0-75-in-x-8-ft/1000443571?cm_mmc=shp-_-c-_-prd-_-mlw-_-ggl-_-LIA_MLW_122_Mouldings-Specialty-Millwork-_-1000443571-_-local-_-0-_-0&gclid=CjwKCAjwh8mlBhB_EiwAsztdBP4ndUgEIkTpYjyyKA9oiGLwbTJ9Pup2UI6cvudmslffxKEKjW23YRoCe3QQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

I know how I would fix both frame rest and box height with one piece, but ... I'll try to think of a way that it could be easily done... forming sheet metal precisely isn't.
Thanks, animal.  Yeah, with building, to steal a quote from the movie Margin Call, "speak to me like I'm a 5 year old or a very smart golden retriever."  :grin:  A lack of construction skill is my biggest weakness as a beekeeper; I definitely won't attempt anything difficult here.   

I got another e-mail from the folks at BetterBee, and the lady mentioned that I may have the frame rests installed incorrectly.  I asked some clarifying questions, because I'm not entirely sure what she meant when she attempted to describe it to me, so I'll have to wait until she gets back to me on that.   
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Re: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« Reply #36 on: July 15, 2023, 04:08:58 pm »
if installed incorrectly.. dunno, never seen one but ...

maybe ... if the "L" shaped frame rest has a thin side and a thick side .. the thick side should rest on the rabbet.

or if both legs of the "L" are the same thickness but different lengths, and there is a channel in the wall at the top of the rabbet, it may be upside down. ... possibly should be the long side laying on the rabbet with short side pointing up. This might  "look wrong" since the frame would rest on an edge rather than on a shelf, but could still be right... and would be less prone to sticking to the frames.
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Re: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« Reply #37 on: July 17, 2023, 11:43:49 am »
Okay, so here is a video that Betterbee sent me.  Frame rest installation starts at 1:30.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSSbu49mtwQ
Apparently they are supposed to go in with the L right side up and the short leg just stuck into the wall.  That might change the spacing enough to correct my problems.  They REALLY should have included that bit of information in the assembly instructions, that isn't even slightly intuitive! 
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Re: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« Reply #38 on: July 17, 2023, 12:31:33 pm »
So the rabbet & channel is made like I originally thought it might be ... but they use an "L" instead of an upside down "F" like my imagination suggested  :embarassed:

"They REALLY should have included that bit of information in the assembly instructions, that isn't even slightly intuitive! "

No kidding !  :shocked:.. and maybe even mention the youtube video in the instructions ... and website/catalog for that matter.
I can't imagine why they molded the styrofoam the way they did. If the rabbet was higher, the rails would fit the way you put them in. They wouldn't need the additional channel.  You could use standard metal ones if you wanted. .. plus the box height..

Also, the way they have it, the force from the weight of the frames is concentrated on the inner 90 degree bend in the plastic support rail .. unless the inner bend is rounded to distribute it

Well, hopefully, they'll work better for you now.....Thanks for posting the solution to the puzzle.
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Re: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« Reply #39 on: July 18, 2023, 09:56:45 am »
Member when I switched to poly I switched hive tools for this reason-- no space to slide frames around.  I used to use the "pry bar/scraper" style with the flat blade on one end and the 90* blade on the other. Now I use the flat blade and frame hook style.  I like it! But the particular one I have is too long; Bill Murray has one that he custom made about 6 inches long with the frame hook on it, is ideal.

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Re: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« Reply #40 on: July 18, 2023, 12:20:40 pm »
Member when I switched to poly I switched hive tools for this reason-- no space to slide frames around.  I used to use the "pry bar/scraper" style with the flat blade on one end and the 90* blade on the other. Now I use the flat blade and frame hook style.  I like it! But the particular one I have is too long; Bill Murray has one that he custom made about 6 inches long with the frame hook on it, is ideal.
I have a mini J-hook tool that I got at a bee place in South Carolina, and I don't know what I'd do without it.  I wish I could find another one this small because I'd like to buy a second one in case I lose it.  I love how I can just keep it in my palm when I'm holding a frame and then it's always right there.  I have an standard 9 in. tool for cracking boxes and scraping frames clean, but I use the little tool for everything else.

when I switched to poly
 
You use poly hives, Matt?  Hmmm . . . I'm thinking a thought.  I'll e-mail it to you.  :wink:
« Last Edit: July 18, 2023, 01:11:01 pm by The15thMember »
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Re: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« Reply #41 on: July 18, 2023, 01:42:22 pm »
sniff sniff ... both in NC .. a trade offer in the wind ?  :cheesy: whatever the case, hope all works out for y'all !
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Re: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« Reply #42 on: July 18, 2023, 02:34:56 pm »
sniff sniff ... both in NC .. a trade offer in the wind ?  :cheesy: whatever the case, hope all works out for y'all !
Mmaaayyybeeee . . . .  :wink:   
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Re: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« Reply #43 on: July 18, 2023, 08:06:28 pm »
sniff sniff ... both in NC .. a trade offer in the wind ?  :cheesy: whatever the case, hope all works out for y'all !
Mmaaayyybeeee . . . .  :wink:   
A quick weather report: the trade winds are blowing favorably.  :wink: :cheesy:
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Re: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« Reply #44 on: July 18, 2023, 10:51:52 pm »
A little off subject ... over the years, I've bought 3 cars from my neighbor. Never haggled, just paid what he asked (almost unheard of for me). All three times he was frustrated because of repairs he had made to them and fed up with the car. Anyway, I never had undue trouble with any of them. I knew he took good care of them and figure he worked the kinks out of them for me ... not sure what he thinks of it. Just FWIW ...  To each his own.. :smile:
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Re: Frame Spacing: 8 Frame v. 10 Frame
« Reply #45 on: September 03, 2023, 09:17:15 pm »
Just wanted to follow up on this thread in case it's helpful to anyone in the future.  I got this colony into one of my normal wooden hives, and I was cleaning up this equipment, so I decided to correct all the frame rests.  The top picture shows how I had the rests installed, and the bottom two pictures show the rest installed correctly.  I turned the plastic piece over, so it was positioned like a ride-side-up L, and then pushed the short leg all the way into the groove cut in the wall.  It seems sturdy now, and it would definitely affect the spacing.  Still glad I'm getting rid of the stuff, but at least we figured out what was wrong.  Thanks to everyone who helped, and a big thanks to Matt for being willing to trade.  I'm extremely happy to have all my bees back in my normal equipment.  :happy:

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