Why not regular fumings of oxalic?

[Jim134]

You may find this interesting to read. I really see no reason not to be compliant.
http://www.beeculture.com/oxalic-acid-effective-easy-on-bees-but/
I know last time a big commercial beekeeper in the USA got caught using an unapproved miticide it cost them thousands of  $$$$$$$$$$$$ .


                       BEE  HAPPY  Jim134  :)

[GSF]

tjc1;

I can only answer your question with a speculation. I would guess if you used it to much they'd abscond. OA is somewhat like cologne; just because it's cheap don't mean you put a lot on. (lol)

[KeyLargoBees]

yep.....need to pay close attention to dosages whichever formulation you choose to use. If interested in some good info this is a helpful link.

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/oxalic-acid-questions-answers-and-more-questions-part-1-of-2-parts/

[Jim134]

I would definitely suggest you use the directions that the EPA has put out on the label. The website in the previous post which is a little dated. If the product you put it on does not have this label on the product it as not EPA approved in the USA
The actual label is on page 3 & 4 of the link I put up
   http://nybeewellness.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/oxalic-label-final.pdf



               BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)

[Acebird]

Do you know if that is required of this particular product? I do realize on some products it is required to do that especially if it requires a pesticide license to apply it.


                    BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)

Going by this Jim:

Base miticide use on Integrated Pest Management (IPM).  This includes proper pest identification, monitoring for
locality specific economic threshold and economic injury levels, record keeping, and utilizing all available control
practices (cultural, biological and chemical).

[Jim134]

Thank you for getting back the information.
  I see you quote has no reference which is ok. I do believe you should keep records anyway. What'd you do to your bee hives no matter what you do. It helps you make better decisions in the future.

  I did go to a public hearing about this very chemical and very label in MA..  There was a EPA agent there .At the hearing this very question came up as long it does not require a applicator license. You do not have to keep track. The same thing as for any other chemical you can buy in the hardware store such as ant spray and mosquito spray and the like.



                    BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)

[Acebird]

  I see you quote has no reference which is ok.

After reading the first link you provided the same one the OP quoted, I see that I am wrong about it being a requirement of the label.  It was under "Resistance Management" and not stated as a requirement.  However the greatest impact on bees is going to occur when commercial beekeepers use this product and don't keep records.  Hives will certainly be over dosed and as a general rule dosage will increase over time for all users.  As much as I hate GMO's it takes the pesticide dosage out of the hands of the user for the most part.

As far as the environment is concerned I wished there were all these smart people developing these chemical bombs working on finding out why some hives don't need them and promoting what ever it is that makes that so.

[KeyLargoBees]

Reread the BeeCulture article paying special attention to the last paragraph. He reference to the "strength" of pure OA and the need to dilute down to a specific % for safe use is an attempt to justify the EPA label but it is a red herring and doesn't apply to Vaporization and anyone with a wit of commen sense woudl use various references and or forums like this to seek advice on application rates and not trust a single random you tube video...this is yet another example of big brother trying to protect us from ourselves.

God I sound like a conspiracy theorist right now and it makes me cringe but having a science background...and a brain....this whole thing gets me riled up for some reason.

I am not advocating anyone break the law...and commercial beekeepers obviously are required to abide by it or risk financial loss and legal recrimination. My point is that all of this labeling hubub and super secrecy behind Brushy Mountain getting the "exclusive" distribution of a product that is so virtually identical to what is already available on the market smacks of back room deals  and some sort of compromise to allow this to be fast tracked through the bureaucracy that is EPA and USDA approvals....and for NO other reason.

Should all beeks who have been treating with VOA  under the table for years throw out their tubs of "wood bleach" and go out and buy the "legal" version? Should we look down our noses at the European beeks who have been using this method for 15-20 years and boycott all honey and hive imports from there because its obvious that all of their hives are contaminated? Should all Beekeepers in Hawaii and extreme south Florida who dont have brood breaks and cant follow the proposed Fall and spring treatment regimin be banned from using this treatment?

Probably not.....

Love this forum and you all are like family.....and some of the most hotly contested "discussions" I have ever had have been with family there you are :-)

To all who are reading this.....do as you see fit (within reason)  for your bees and do what works to preserve and nurture these wonderful creatures...mankind has had a symbiotic relationship with these "ladies" for thousands of years and that bond predates all of these rules and regulations.

[Acebird]

Should all Beekeepers in Hawaii and extreme south Florida who dont have brood breaks

Is this true?  There are no dearths in Hawaii and south FL where the queen would shut down for a period?

[iddee]

"""I seem to recall a temperature window for application (55-75? maybe) that would limit it's use during certain times of the year, certainly here in Florida."""

I doubt you would ever see a dearth in the tropics with these temps.

[deknow]

Farmers that use homegrown 'tank mixes' also are smarter than regulators.

[little john]

[ ...]  smacks of back room deals  and some sort of compromise to allow this to be fast tracked through the bureaucracy that is EPA and USDA approvals....and for NO other reason.

Chemical companies have financial muscle.  In Europe we used the cheap generic chemicals Sodium Chlorate and Ammonium Sulphamate as perfectly effective weedkillers for donkey's years - until they were banned for spurious reasons and now we must buy EU-approved and very expensive patented weedkillers from the likes of Bayer and Monsanto.

Market manipulation by the chemical lobby ?  It's very hard not to draw that conclusion.

LJ

[Jim134]

  I see you quote has no reference which is ok.

After reading the first link you provided the same one the OP quoted, I see that I am wrong about it being a requirement of the label.  It was under "Resistance Management" and not stated as a requirement.  However the greatest impact on bees is going to occur when commercial beekeepers use this product and don't keep records.  Hives will certainly be over dosed and as a general rule dosage will increase over time for all users.  As much as I hate GMO's it takes the pesticide dosage out of the hands of the user for the most part.

As far as the environment is concerned I wished there were all these smart people developing these chemical bombs working on finding out why some hives don't need them and promoting what ever it is that makes that so.

          I learned a long time ago a quote taken out of context is nothing but a pretext


       BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)

[Jim134]

Reread the BeeCulture article paying special attention to the last paragraph. He reference to the "strength" of pure OA and the need to dilute down to a specific % for safe use is an attempt to justify the EPA label but it is a red herring and doesn't apply to Vaporization and anyone with a wit of commen sense woudl use various references and or forums like this to seek advice on application rates and not trust a single random you tube video...this is yet another example of big brother trying to protect us from ourselves.

God I sound like a conspiracy theorist right now and it makes me cringe but having a science background...and a brain....this whole thing gets me riled up for some reason.

I am not advocating anyone break the law...and commercial beekeepers obviously are required to abide by it or risk financial loss and legal recrimination. My point is that all of this labeling hubub and super secrecy behind Brushy Mountain getting the "exclusive" distribution of a product that is so virtually identical to what is already available on the market smacks of back room deals  and some sort of compromise to allow this to be fast tracked through the bureaucracy that is EPA and USDA approvals....and for NO other reason.

Should all beeks who have been treating with VOA  under the table for years throw out their tubs of "wood bleach" and go out and buy the "legal" version? Should we look down our noses at the European beeks who have been using this method for 15-20 years and boycott all honey and hive imports from there because its obvious that all of their hives are contaminated? Should all Beekeepers in Hawaii and extreme south Florida who dont have brood breaks and cant follow the proposed Fall and spring treatment regimin be banned from using this treatment?

Probably not.....

Love this forum and you all are like family.....and some of the most hotly contested "discussions" I have ever had have been with family there you are :-)

To all who are reading this.....do as you see fit (within reason)  for your bees and do what works to preserve and nurture these wonderful creatures...mankind has had a symbiotic relationship with these "ladies" for thousands of years and that bond predates all of these rules and regulations.

You can apply for a license to manufacture this product and possibly a different label to the EPA. Brushy Mountain just happened to be the first one who did this.


        BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)

[Michael Bush]

> My point is that all of this labeling hubub and super secrecy behind Brushy Mountain getting the "exclusive" distribution of a product that is so virtually identical to what is already available on the market smacks of back room deals  and some sort of compromise to allow this to be fast tracked through the bureaucracy that is EPA and USDA approvals....and for NO other reason.

The problem is the system, not backroom deals.  The system says you have to test the product, present the findings and pay a fee to sell it.  If you are willing to do that, you could also sell it.  The problem is that there is no money in that when people can go buy it off the shelf already.  I'd say Brushy Mt. is doing more out of the goodness of their heart than any hope of a profit.  Now at least there is a legal way to do it.

[Jim134]

Farmers that use homegrown 'tank mixes' also are smarter than regulators.

They usually catch a few farmers every year doing this. One of the biggest things wrong has
a lot of chemicals would never  meant to be mixed together at the same time. This can make for a very deadly cocktail.


          BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)

[Jim134]

I do realize.These are rumors from the internet. Brushy Mountain put up a half million dollars or so. To do all the testing and legal work for this product.



           BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)

[KeyLargoBees]

None of my posts were in any way meant to play down the the role BM had in getting this "legalized".

[KPF]

Beekeepers think that farmers should follow the label when applying pesticides (and are outraged when they dont)....yet beekeepers feel pretty comfortable about putting anything in the hives without worrying about pesky labels and regulations.

And even more meticulous about record keeping which is also a requirement of the label.
IMO OAV is a huge step in the wrong direction if you want to save the bees.

Tell me more. I've looked at a number of mite treatments and the only one I'll try is OA. Why do you think it's bad?

[Michael Bush]

>Why do you think it's bad?

I'll offer a quote from Kirk Webster:

"We're trying to ensure the failure of modern beekeeping by focusing too much on single traits; by ignoring the elements of Wildness; and by constantly treating the bees.  The biggest mistake of all is to continue viewing mites and other "pests" as enemies that must be destroyed, instead of allies and teachers that are trying to show us a path to a better future.  The more virulent a parasite is, the more powerful a tool it can be for improving stocks and practice in the future. 

"...All the boring and soul-destroying work of counting mites on sticky boards, killing brood with liquid nitrogen, watching bees groom each other, and measuring brood hormone levels---all done in thousands of replications---will someday be seen as a colossal waste of time when we finally learn to let the Varroa mites do these things for us."

--Kirk Webster, What's missing from the current discussion and work related to bees that?s preventing us from making good progress