Welcome, Guest

Author Topic: Why not regular fumings of oxalic?  (Read 20803 times)

Offline tjc1

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 752
  • Gender: Male
Why not regular fumings of oxalic?
« on: April 23, 2016, 11:50:58 pm »
For folks who know oxalic - from what I've read so far, vaporized oxalic seems pretty tolerable to the bees (ex. using it once a week for three - four weeks in order to get mites in the capped brood). Given the problems with the mites and accompanying viruses, how about the idea of just doing regular vaporizations throughout the season in order to keep ahead of them - say, every three weeks? I'm OK with getting whacked if this is a really stupid thought...;)

Offline Jim134

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 3057
  • Gender: Male
    • Franklin County Beekeepers Association
Re: Why not regular fumings of oxalic?
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2016, 12:28:02 am »
This may help you understand varroa mites better.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4WvPNmS7uc&list=PLULmyvKFHmg1r-sf7eZkh5Lp0V0gWihmP&index=43


      BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/

Offline Jim134

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 3057
  • Gender: Male
    • Franklin County Beekeepers Association
Re: Why not regular fumings of oxalic?
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2016, 12:50:01 am »
If you use oxalic acid you do need the proper label and Brushy Mountain has it as well as Betterbee and Dadant. If it does not have this label it is not legal to use in Massachusetts according to the state bee inspector. One thing to remember the label is the law whether you like it or not. And no you can't go out buy Wood bleach it is not properly labeled.

   http://nybeewellness.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/oxalic-label-final.pdf



            BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
« Last Edit: April 24, 2016, 01:20:23 am by Jim 134 »
"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/

Offline rober

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 710
  • Gender: Male
Re: Why not regular fumings of oxalic?
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2016, 06:25:21 am »
chemically is there any difference between wood bleach & the properly labeled stuff?

Offline Jim134

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 3057
  • Gender: Male
    • Franklin County Beekeepers Association
Re: Why not regular fumings of oxalic?
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2016, 06:37:51 am »
Who knows?
 All I can say is the label is the law. I know The Chemical Company do not have to tell you what they use for
Inert Ingredients. This ingredient may be different in the two products you mentioned . all I have to tell you is the active ingredient. I did go out to a club to bee meeting. There was a representative there from the pesticide board. If you are using a chemical off label it is against the law. Oh yeah and they had a definition of a chemical also. Which is way too long to list here.


                     BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
« Last Edit: April 24, 2016, 06:58:17 am by Jim 134 »
"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/

Offline KeyLargoBees

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 776
  • Gender: Male
    • Pirate Hat Apiary
Re: Why not regular fumings of oxalic?
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2016, 07:11:59 am »
But then again all VOA was illegal until last year....and people were using whatever they could find and buying vaporizers from overseas and wood bleach from the hardware stores......also realize that there are mo such labeling concerns in Europe on this subject and they have been using VOA for 20+ years.

This is sort of like the state/federal government telling you to never exceed the speed limit and always come to a complete stop....no one does it not even state and federal law enforcement officials....but thats still their "official" policy.

Do as you feel is best.....Its a personal decision.
Jeff Wingate

Changes in Latitudes...Changes in Attitudes....are Florida Keys bees more laid back than the rest of the country...only time will tell!!!
piratehatapiary@gmail.com https://www.facebook.com/piratehatapiary

Offline deknow

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 876
  • Gender: Male
    • Golden Rule Honey, LLC
Re: Why not regular fumings of oxalic?
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2016, 07:23:52 am »
The label is very specific that it is only to be used in the spring or fall, not throught the season.

Beekeepers think that farmers should follow the label when applying pesticides (and are outraged when they dont)....yet beekeepers feel pretty comfortable about putting anything in the hives without worrying about pesky labels and regulations.

Offline Jim134

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 3057
  • Gender: Male
    • Franklin County Beekeepers Association
Re: Why not regular fumings of oxalic?
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2016, 07:26:00 am »
It looks like some people like going down rabbit hole.
Just an observation.
           

                   BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
         
"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/

Offline little john

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 1537
Re: Why not regular fumings of oxalic?
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2016, 08:30:27 am »
Who knows?
 All I can say is the label is the law. I know The Chemical Company do not have to tell you what they use for Inert Ingredients. This ingredient may be different in the two products you mentioned .

The chemicals are the same.  We're taking about Oxalic Acid Dihydrate, Technical Grade, which is 99.5% or better.  There are (or should be) NO inert ingredients - who made that b/s up ?  If there are additions of any significance, then the manufacturer must reveal them - at least in general terms.

Impurities are always listed on the product data sheet - they have to be.  In the case of Oxalic Acid Dihydrate they are mainly salts of heavy metals, typically iron.

LJ
A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping - http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com

Offline Jim134

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 3057
  • Gender: Male
    • Franklin County Beekeepers Association
Re: Why not regular fumings of oxalic?
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2016, 09:18:28 am »
Who knows?
 All I can say is the label is the law. I know The Chemical Company do not have to tell you what they use for Inert Ingredients. This ingredient may be different in the two products you mentioned .

The chemicals are the same.  We're taking about Oxalic Acid Dihydrate, Technical Grade, which is 99.5% or better.  There are (or should be) NO inert ingredients - who made that b/s up ?  If there are additions of any significance, then the manufacturer must reveal them - at least in general terms.

Impurities are always listed on the product data sheet - they have to be.  In the case of Oxalic Acid Dihydrate they are mainly salts of heavy metals, typically iron.

LJ

Maybe all of us should reread the label of this product Oxalic Acid Dihydrate . That is approved for the USA.
 At can be found at   

  http://nybeewellness.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/oxalic-label-final.pdf

Oxalic Acid Dihydrate
For Varroa mite control on bees
Active Ingredient:
Oxalic Acid Dihydrate: ............................................................ 97.0%
Inert Ingredients: ......................................................................... 3.0%
TOTAL: .................................................................................... 100.0%
« Last Edit: April 24, 2016, 09:50:06 am by Jim 134 »
"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/

Offline herbhome

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 725
  • Gender: Male
Re: Why not regular fumings of oxalic?
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2016, 08:22:22 pm »
Not sure anyone has answered the OP's original question. I don't know the answer, so I'll just keep checking back in.
Neill

Offline Jim134

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 3057
  • Gender: Male
    • Franklin County Beekeepers Association
Re: Why not regular fumings of oxalic?
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2016, 09:08:32 pm »
herbhome
If you would like to read the directions it is right on the label. The actual label is on page 3 & 4 of the link I put up. I do hope this answers all your questions. Also look at  Reply #6.


http://nybeewellness.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/oxalic-label-final.pdf




    BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
« Last Edit: April 24, 2016, 09:42:59 pm by Jim 134 »
"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/

Offline tjc1

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 752
  • Gender: Male
Re: Why not regular fumings of oxalic?
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2016, 10:06:20 pm »
OK - the following answers my questions (from the label): thanks, Jim.

Use only in late fall or early spring when little or no brood is present.
Oxalic Acid Dihydrate might damage bee brood.   
Oxalic Acid Dihydrate will not control Varroa  mites in capped brood.
Do not use when honey supers are in place to prevent contamination of marketable honey.
Apply only when monitoring indicates treatment is required. Consult state guidelines and local extension experts for monitoring protocols and thresholds for treatment.

RESISTANCE MANAGEMENT:
Oxalic acid?s  mechanism of action is unknown at this time. Any Varroa mite
population has the potential to become resistant to acaricides.  Resistance development is affected by both the frequency
of application and rate/dose of application.  Continued reliance on a single class of miticide or single miticide with the same
mode of action will select for resistant individuals which may dominate the mite population in subsequent generations.  In
order to prevent resistance development and to maintain the usefulness of individual insecticides it is important to adopt
appropriate resistant management strategies. 
To delay resistance:
x
When possible, rotate the use of miticides to reduce selection pressure as compared to repeatedly using the
same product, mode or action or chemical class.  If multiple applications are required, use a different mode of
action each time before returning to a previously-used one.
x
 Base miticide use on Integrated Pest Management (IPM).  This includes proper pest identification, monitoring for
locality specific economic threshold and economic injury levels, record keeping, and utilizing all available control
practices (cultural, biological and chemical).
x
Maximize efficacy by following all label instructions including dosage and timing of application.

Offline Jim134

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 3057
  • Gender: Male
    • Franklin County Beekeepers Association
Re: Why not regular fumings of oxalic?
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2016, 11:18:22 pm »
tjc1
I'm glad you read the label. :wink:

I hope you can tell the two formulas are different. Wood bleach and the proper one that is approved. Just look at the percentages of the active ingredient. As well as the percentages of the Inert Ingredient. I also realize this may not be the case in comparing one product with another with the same chemical name. One thing to remember the label is the law.


           BEE HAPPY Jim 134  :smile:
« Last Edit: April 25, 2016, 12:01:49 am by Jim 134 »
"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/

Offline herbhome

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 725
  • Gender: Male
Re: Why not regular fumings of oxalic?
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2016, 12:34:05 am »
I'm thinking the paragraph on resistance management shouldn't even have to be Law, it's more like natural law or good sense.
Neill

Offline little john

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 1537
Re: Why not regular fumings of oxalic?
« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2016, 04:29:56 am »

Oxalic Acid Dihydrate
For Varroa mite control on bees
Active Ingredient:
Oxalic Acid Dihydrate: ............................................................ 97.0%
Inert Ingredients: ......................................................................... 3.0%
TOTAL: .................................................................................... 100.0%

I'd bet you my pension that the so-called 'Inert Ingredients' are actually the impurities within a low-grade Oxalic Acid Dihydrate.  Otherwise it would be an Oxalic Acid Dihydrate MIXTURE, and should be labelled as such. 

Looks to me like marketing b/s.  So - if there's 3% of crap present, then there should be a helluva lot of residue remaining in the pan.  Is there ?

I'm sticky to my technical-grade OA (wood cleaner), as - if indeed labels can be trusted - it's a much purer product than what you guys are being sold.

LJ



« Last Edit: April 25, 2016, 04:45:32 am by little john »
A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping - http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com

Offline KeyLargoBees

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 776
  • Gender: Male
    • Pirate Hat Apiary
Re: Why not regular fumings of oxalic?
« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2016, 08:48:52 am »
I am in your court  LJ...this stuff has been approved for use in Europe for 20 years and Canada for 5 years at least before the US there was no attempt to produce an "official" brand of OA crystals or restrictions on labeling this is atypical bureaucratic control thing in the US....there is knowledge on how the product works and quite a bit of research on it. If anyone is inclined to do a little searching on the net one can find quite a bit of info above and beyond that listed on the label....and draw some of your own conclusions.

Oh and for the record....get into a conversation with just about any doctor about over the counter drug warning labels in the US and ask them about the accuracy of those labels and their thoughts on recommended dosages listed ....or the arbitrary expiration dates placed and a lot of drugs as required by the labeling nazis in DC.... Just because its on a label it inst gospel truth

Jeff Wingate

Changes in Latitudes...Changes in Attitudes....are Florida Keys bees more laid back than the rest of the country...only time will tell!!!
piratehatapiary@gmail.com https://www.facebook.com/piratehatapiary

Offline bobsim

  • New Bee
  • *
  • Posts: 41
  • Gender: Male
Re: Why not regular fumings of oxalic?
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2016, 11:20:59 am »
  I seem to recall a temperature window for application (55-75? maybe) that would limit it's use during certain times of the year, certainly here in Florida.

  This is from Brushy Mtn.:  HOW MANY TIMES SHOULD I TREAT MY HIVE?
You will only want to treat your hive ONCE during the fall/winter. Honey bees have a low tolerance to Oxalic Acid.  Overexposure can cause issues and death in the hive.

  Here's a link to the page:  http://blog.brushymountainbeefarm.com/2015/09/oxalic-acid-faqs.html

Offline Acebird

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 8112
  • Gender: Male
  • Just do it
Re: Why not regular fumings of oxalic?
« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2016, 12:10:02 pm »
Beekeepers think that farmers should follow the label when applying pesticides (and are outraged when they dont)....yet beekeepers feel pretty comfortable about putting anything in the hives without worrying about pesky labels and regulations.
And even more meticulous about record keeping which is also a requirement of the label. :rolleyes:
IMO OAV is a huge step in the wrong direction if you want to save the bees.
Brian Cardinal
Just do it

Offline Jim134

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 3057
  • Gender: Male
    • Franklin County Beekeepers Association
Re: Why not regular fumings of oxalic?
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2016, 01:01:45 pm »
Beekeepers think that farmers should follow the label when applying pesticides (and are outraged when they dont)....yet beekeepers feel pretty comfortable about putting anything in the hives without worrying about pesky labels and regulations.
And even more meticulous about record keeping which is also a requirement of the label. :rolleyes:
IMO OAV is a huge step in the wrong direction if you want to save the bees.



Do you know if that is required of this particular product? I do realize on some products it is required to do that especially if it requires a pesticide license to apply it.


                    BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/

 

anything