What constitutes 'Good Beekeeping Practice' ?

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

{How well Lusby does depends on who you are talking too.}

Agreed.  Lusby lost 350 out of 600 hives after varroa invaded her bees.  Yet to my amazement, success was hollered, SURVIVOR bees was proclaimed as the new word with ORGANIC bee keeping as the new profound way of beekeeping.  These survivor bees are hostile, dangerous, the visiting camera man had so many stings on his camera lense, that the venom on then lens had to be cleaned.  The pics of the camera mans gloves were covered with stingers at Lusby Organic bees.  Understand the camera man was a bystander, not in the hives and he was attacked.  Why sting the camera lens you ask, answer these hostile bees are going for the eyes, the bees think the lens are eyes.

I would agree, hostile bees are better at dealing with varroa.  However to raise and even praise, promote extremely hostile bees is not good breaking to me.  To each his/her own, but endangering folks, the public, with such aggressive bees that protection is a must is not organic to me.

Lusby contends drones need to be maintained as an ATTRACTANT to disease.  Implying disease will attack the drones first giving a break to the workers so workers can do whatever to the disease.  This is an illusion.

I have heard of real survivor bees, hives, tended to by responsible beeks that maintain chemical free hives and the bees are not trying to kill the beekeeper.  This is responsible, sensible beekeeping to me, survivor hives without African traits.  Bless the beekeepers whom good judgement rest on their shoulders.  This site has many such men/women.
Blessings

[Acebird]

Why sting the camera lens you ask, answer these hostile bees are going for the eyes, the bees think the lens are eyes.

Or it was the infrared beam used for auto focus.  If you have an auto focus camera you should be careful taking pictures of bees.  Even a gentle breed can head for the camera.  I am not saying Dee doesn't have aggressive bees because she does.

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Yes, Ace I realize what you are saying, just a note:  bees cannot see red as they see in the ultraviolet region Of light, for both day and night vision.  The 3 small eyes centered on the head are primary ultraviolet, night vision.  To test this, I shined a red laser at guard bees on the hive entrance, no reaction at all from a super bright blinding red laser.

However, I understand your point, other colors of light could be used for autofocus.
I hear lots of snow in you area, stay warm.  Have a safe New Year.
Blessings

[Michael Bush]

>How well Lusby does depends on who you are talking too.

Actually her success does not depend on anyone else.

>Agreed.  Lusby lost 350 out of 600 hives after varroa invaded her bees. 

Patently untrue in every aspect.  Where did you get those numberrs?  When Varroa arrived her and Ed had more like 1200 hives at the time, not 600, and they were not losing hives to Varroa.  They lost a lot back in the 80's to Tracheal mites and AFB but not to Varroa.  That's when they regressed them down to 4.9mm.  At the current time she has some major health issues so I can't say how her bees are doing since she can't really take care of them.  Last I saw her bees was about three or four years ago.  She is running less hives because she is not physically able, by herself, to keep up with 1200 hives anymore.  Maybe you should go down and actually look at her bees.  I did.  Several times.  I spent a couple of weeks once back in 2002 and we went to all their yards.  I have been back in her beeyards several times over the years since.  Her bees have always been thriving when I've seen them and I could never figure out what they live on in the desert.

[Acebird]

To test this, I shined a red laser at guard bees on the hive entrance, no reaction at all from a super bright blinding red laser.

Infrared is not red.  It is invisible.  Essentially it is heat and they have no problem sensing heat.  When you face a hive most of the heat comes out your eyes and nose.  That is why it is good to wear a veil.

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

{Dee Lusby Organic Beekeeper
March 15, 2013 by Anita Deeley}

Above, one source for hostile bees of Lusby, with pic and video.  There are to many Lusby articles to quote.
Blessings

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Yes Ace, I know bees go for the eyes, if you say it is due to heat, OK.
Blessings

[bwallace23350]

I don't count myself as a good beekeeper. I am still learning. I am going on my 3rd year now. I started out with two hives. I lost what I thought was my stronger healthier hive over the first winter. I did not make a split last year or catch a swarm even though I asked around to people to let me know if they saw any swarms. My hive went into this winter super strong, with a shallow full of honey, and on warmer days I can see bees flying in and out of the hive. I will feed sometime in the winter to see if they need it. I hope to make splits this spring.

[Michael Bush]

I just read "Dee Lusby Organic Beekeeper March 15, 2013 by Anita Deeley" and find nothing about losses to Varroa or 350 hives lost to Varroa.  I've seen Dee's bees since 2013 and they were still going strong.  Apparently you are not even quoting a mistaken source.  I find people often take things out of context, do strange math and come up with things that are simply not true but they believe, by the way they have done their convoluted math, that is is true.  If Dee's hives have dwindled from 1200 back in the late 1990s down to, let's say the 700 mentioned in the article, that is not losses.  That is attrition because her husband died and she never could take care of 1200 hives by herself.  You do combines rather than splits and soon you have less hives, rather than more hives.  Also as you can't keep up more hives end up queenless that you don't catch and fix and more hives swarm because you're not there to do splits or preventive manipulations.  Last I saw Dee she could barely walk.  I'm sure she can't keep up with 700 hives anymore so I would expect that number to fall some more.  Not because of Varroa.  Not because her methods don't work.  Because she is human, getting older and not very mobile.  People's views of things are usually simplistic.  Reality is not. 

Let's try an example.  If I had 200 hives/nucs (and nucs don't survive as well as hives) going into the 2009 winter (and that's about what I had) and if I left the country (which I did) and did nothing to take care of my bees for the next six winters (which I did not have the time to do being out of the country and then on a book tour) and if I had average losses for Nebraska (as measured by the Bee Informed Partnership, which would be remarkable since nothing was really being done to manage the bees at all including no splits, no swarm control, no feeding etc.) what would be left at the end of those six winters?  Let's do the math.  Winter losses for Nebraska for 2009/10 were 28.54% average so that would leave 142 hives.  The next year average losses in Nebraska were 14.68% so that would leave 121 hives.  The next year, 2011/12 average Nebraska losses were 23.37% so that would leave 92 hives.  The next year 2012/13 Nebraska losses were 37.85% so that would leave 57 hives.  The next year 2013/14 Nebraska losses were 17.89% so that would leave 46 hives.  The next year 2014/2015 average Nebraska losses were 17.28% so that would leave 38 hives.  Remarkably, with no beekeeper intervention (which is not what I am recommending) I still had about 40 hives left, which is just about the average losses for Nebraska beekeepers who were doing swarm control, splits, feeding, requeening queenless hives, and probably some of them were doing Varroa treatments etc.  And yet, despite that reality, there are people who spread rumors that I had "devastating losses" of 160 hives in a year, which, if course, is simply not true. My hives dwindled from 200 to 40 from neglect over a period of six years, some of which I was out of the country and the rest of which I had no time.  If one ignores the complexities of reality one can make up whatever rumors one likes, I guess.  It still will not make them true.

[Acebird]

Reality is a hard thing to swallow...
I had three and I am down to two and the only ones fretting over it are the ones who want me to finish them off with chemicals (good beekeeping practices).
I don't have a lot of life left so I will be darned if I am going to spend the rest of it fretting.
We just came back from a trip from Longwood gardens (Christmas lights).  We stayed in a AB&B in Wilmington,DE.  We froze our ass in both places but I got my wife to laugh about it several times.  (She hates cold)  Her friends have said she would be cold wearing a sweater having lunch with the devil.  However, she has such a love of nature that she can overcome life's hardships.  Longwood Gardens is so spectacular that you can forget your worries and enjoy the moment.  A Christmas tree made up of entirely orhids did the trick.  My brother and sister in law live in SC.  They were hurting too but would not give up the experience for nothing.
Feeling good coming back to the north country where they know how to heat a house.

[Acebird]

I lost what I thought was my stronger healthier hive over the first winter.

If you ask me they are the hive that is at the greatest risk.  They are like teen age'rs that think they know everything.  My experience is the ones that have something to work for make out better.

[Dallasbeek]

Ace, there has to be a better time to go to Longwood Gardens.  You think they don't know how to heat a house, go to Scotland.  Darn cold, even in the fall.  Hate to think what it's like in January.

[Acebird]

Ace, there has to be a better time to go to Longwood Gardens. 

I have been there before in the summer time.  Fantastic!  But they also put on a heck of a display of Christmas lights and the place is huge.  The eating places are warm and the conservatory is warm.
On a Wednesday night in freezing cold they sell out.  The tickets are time slot so don't be late or you won't get in.

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

((Above, one source for hostile bees of Lusby, with pic and video.))

This is cut and paste, my exact words.  Read it, simple, please do not misquote me.

There is some sensitive issue here and reactive post. My intent was not to offend any person.  My last comment on this thread will be this one.  Prosperous New Year to All.
Blessings. 

[yes2matt]

BTW - today marks the Winter Solstice (my equivalent of Xmas Day), and so I'll take this opportunity to wish everyone a very happy festive season, even though this is an earlier date than the majority of folk celebrate.
LJ

Happy belated Solstice to you.

I have only a couple of related observations:
> the more successful people in any endeavor are usually pretty quiet about it, unless to recommend hard work and disciplined study.
> I'm regularly surprised by folks who do not keep bees at all, yet have read an article or two about "the problem" enough to tell me what I should/shouldn't be doing.
> there is a difference between keeping livestock  (incl bees) and keeping a philosophy.
> sometimes I chime in on a discussion and am immediately interpreted to be prescribing a method, even while being careful with my language. It's sometimes an issue of culture.

I had a rough year, but have every intention of making the rebound. :)

Sent from my SM-J327P using Tapatalk

[little john]

there is a difference between keeping livestock  (incl bees) and keeping a philosophy.

Yes, I agree. 

There appears to be two distinctly different groups of people who keep bees (or plan to): those who's motivation is principally based on long-term ecological or ideological issues - and then there are those who simply want to keep bees - as you say, as livestock.

This difference is perhaps most evident when discussing how best to deal with the problem of varroa.  The ecologially-minded beekeeper is quite often fully prepared to lose colonies as the necessary price to be paid in pursuit of a varroa-tolerant strain of bee, whereas livestock-oriented beekeepers will do whatever it takes to ensure that every single one of their existing colonies survives, year on year.

I'm not saying that one group is right and the other wrong, it's just that there exists (or certainly appears to exist) two completely different agendas.  Fortunately, this forum is so much better than most, with a fair degree of tolerance being shown here when opposing philosophies are being expressed - and this, despite the enthusiastic passion which beekeepers invariably display when discussing these amazing little insects.

Good luck re: the rebound ...
LJ

[Joe D]

I think you should check out bee keeping before you start with bees.  Talk to local beekeepers, join beekeeping clubs, and read everything you can find.  The decide how you want to keep your bees, if it works for you great, if not try doing it different, hopefully better.  I do lots of things different from most, and I don't try to push it, but I like it.  I don't treat for mites, have never.  The local club I joined has several commercial beeks, they usually lose more colonies percentage wise that I do.  They also have to change the chemicals used every couple of years.  I am in south Mississippi, it is hot here in the summer, Oh I am a hobbyist, I have my colonies under a roof open on all sides except the north, I have a water container within a few feet of each colony, if they don't have a good honey flow I will not take what they have, we usually can get two extraction a year.  I try not to have to feed them and I think their honey is better for them that what I could give them.  I try to keep a eye on how they are doing though out the year. I have had bees now for seven or eight years, and I have lost a few, had some just leave, had some robbed etc.  I will cull a queen if the hive is mean.  Personally I like the Cordovan and the Russian bees that I have had.  I have done a few thing to help with small hive beetle. I do get to rambling too.
Good luck to you all and your bees

Joe D

[little john]

After I'd posted it occurred to me that the treating or not-treating of varroa might not be the best example of what I'm talking about.  Perhaps our attitudes towards wasps would be better.

Although my memory is no longer uber-reliable, I'm pretty sure it was on this forum within the last year that there was a discussion regarding wasps.  As a livestock-beekeeper, I see wasps as potential threats to my colonies, and so I have no hesitation whatsoever of killing them on sight.  That's not to say I've mounted some kind of crusade against the wasp, but if I should come across one which is sniffing around the hive or better still, a nest somewhere within the garden - then I feel it's 'my duty' on behalf of the livestock I keep, to eliminate this threat.  If I didn't keep bees, then I'm sure my attitude would be different - but I do, and so it isn't.

Other beekeepers in that thread were voicing an attitude of leaving the wasps alone as (in my words) they are but one part of the rich tapestry of life, and that in order to respect the balance of Nature they have the right not to be molested.  That, I would say, is an essentially 'ecological' perspective towards the craft of beekeeping.

So, are we concerned primarily with the welfare of our bees - or of the whole vista of life upon this planet ?  I guess that is a question that only each person can answer for themselves.
LJ

[Acebird]

So, are we concerned primarily with the welfare of our bees - or of the whole vista of life upon this planet ?

If you are a farmer you poison weeds and insects because it affects the products you hope to sell.  If you are a gardener you may do the same but some gardeners will not poison weeds and insects because they plan on eating the products themselves.  Their solution is to grow more then they need.
A commercial beekeeper will dump poisons on their hives because it affects the products they hope to sell.  Some beekeepers will do the same.  But some beekeepers will not dump poisons on their hives because they intend to consume the products of their hives themselves.  Their solution is to have more hives then they need.  That would be three.

In each case the viewpoints are different because the reference is different.

I don't pay attention to wasp because they are at an extreme disadvantage to a healthy hive of honeybees.  Mankind has always battled nature and never seems to win.

[little john]

I notice you used the phrase 'hope to sell' - as if the only justification for  the existence of large-scale beekeeping operations is financial.  That may well be each individual commercial beekeeper's motivation - but when such activities are viewed from a national or international perspective, how exactly would the annual demand for many thousands of tons of honey ever be met by alternatives - (say) by hobby beekeepers, each with their 3 hives, and who harvest but a few jars of honey each year for the consumption of themselves and of those close to them ?

I used to be a practitioner of self-sufficiency, which so many people - certainly here in the UK - view as being some kind of idyllic lifestyle: living off the land as Nature intended, independent of mainstream society.  Until I woke up one morning and realised just how selfish this "I'm all right Jack, sod the rest" approach to life really is.  Much healthier I think, to interact with society, to contribute towards supplying society's needs, including it's demands for honey by the ton.  I can't produce honey in any volume myself, by virtue of being located within an agro-industrial area, and so my activities are targeted towards supplying bees to those who can.

By all means let the hobby-beekeeper enjoy their pursuit - it must be one of the finest hobbies imaginable - but let not the increasingly vociferous hobby beekeeper faction (many of whom have a primarily ecological agenda) continue to lecture those running much larger operations, promoting their own methodologies which very often involve substantial colony losses.  The expression "dumping poisons into beehives" being but one example of the emotive rhetoric employed by such people.
LJ