I?m in trouble again

[Guitarman]

It?s definitely varroa. What I think has happened, I had to reduce the pixels so it would upload. And when the conversion happens, I wouldn?t be surprised if there?s some distortion of the image. It was a very Hi-Resolution  picture and had to be dropped down to very low kbs to be acceptable for upload. I?m sure that?s all it is. The legs aren?t that pronounced in the original.

Okay you ready for my new problem. I still have a hive with no queen. And I couldn?t find any eggs in the nuke the other day. And then I read on another forum that sometimes the queen doesn?t lay for up to 4 weeks after a formic pro treatment. So don?t assume the Queens dead.

So today I suited up again. My poor bees must be getting sick of me going into the brood box. I sat down and watched a dozen YouTube videos on how to spot the Queen. I got familiar with what I was looking for. So armed with all that, I went back into the brood box. I checked every frame so carefully and couldn?t spot a queen anywhere. I also couldn?t find any brood  anywhere. She has to be dead. It?s almost been four weeks since I treated them.

Next problem. After watching all those videos, I decided to go to the nuke. I was determined to find a queen today. And I wanted eggs to put into the other hive anyway. Now the nuke only has four drawn frames and one blank frame. Surely I could find a queen. After carefully inspecting the frames, no queen. Even worse no eggs. I can?t remember exactly when I got the nuc or the swarm, but it would?ve been about 10 days ago at least.

So now I?m starting to doubt myself. Is it me. I couldn?t possibly have two queenless hives. I?ve seen eggs before in my friends hive. All that?s happening in the nuke is there cleaning the frames up and they?re filling in with Honey. No eggs, and I couldn?t find the queen. Mind you, the frames are pretty loaded with bees in the nuc. She could?ve been buried under bees. But the lack of any laying activity is now really worrying me. Or is 10 days too early to be looking for eggs in the nuc.

[BeeMaster2]

Yes, 10 days can bee too early to look for eggs. Inspecting too often can cause the bees to kill the queen especially if she have any brood to prove that she is a good queen. We normally wait 3 to 4 weeks for a new queen to settle in.
You say the bees are back filling the brood chamber. That is a sign that ther are queen less. When you have a new queen, the bees normally clean out the brood chamber.
Jim Altmiller

[Michael Bush]

https://bushfarms.com/beespanacea.htm

[Michael Bush]

https://bushfarms.com/beesfallacies.htm#nobroodnoqueen

[The15thMember]

Yes, 10 days can bee too early to look for eggs.  We normally wait 3 to 4 weeks for a new queen to settle in.

This nuc isn't a split though, Jim, it's a captured swarm.  So 10 days should be plenty provided the queen was mated, and even if she was a virgin that could be enough time to get mated and start laying. 

You say the bees are back filling the brood chamber. That is a sign that ther are queen less. When you have a new queen, the bees normally clean out the brood chamber.

I do agree though, I think it sounds like both colonies are probably queenless, Guitarman.  Perhaps your mentor can give you a frame of eggs or two. 

[Ben Framed]

A number of things could?ve happened. One being the possibility of the queen being injured during capture and unable to lay. Or she could have been a virgin swarm queen (Which occasionally happens as is my understanding ), and indeed needed more time to start laying. I have seen it take up to two weeks for a virgin queen to transform to a laying queen.(Though 10 days should have been enough for a flying virgin).

Either way, or perhaps other possibilities; As Jim well pointed out:

Beemaster2
You say the bees are back filling the brood chamber. That is a sign that ther are queen less. When you have a new queen, the bees normally clean out the brood chamber.

[Guitarman]

Thanks guys.
Really appreciate your wisdom experience and knowledge.
When we captured this swarm, I used the bucket on the stick trick. I poured them into the new Nuc box and my 86 year old mentor slammed the lid down before I could stop him. There were piles of bees on top of the frames and I heard the crunch of bees. I was concerned immediately he could have crunched the Queen. He is 86 years old and only been doing this for 5 years. I remained optimistic that the probability of that happening was very remote. I?m not so sure now.

I can buy a queen and have her here in about six days. My hive would?ve been queenless for about 4 1/2 weeks at that stage if she died during formic pro treatment. I?m starting to worry that putting eggs in there might take too long for them to succeed. I?m also worried is it too long now to even put a replacement queen in there at 4 half weeks. There?s still lots of bees in there as of today. I can see the number dropping but there?s still a lot as of today. I?ve never done this before, but I?m guessing there?s a delay in introducing the Queen. Does she stay in her little capsule for a few days so they accept her? We could end up at five weeks. Am I wasting my money buying a queen after 5 weeks queenless.

[The15thMember]

The question is not how long have they been without a queen, but how long have they been without brood.  Yes, the colony has dwindled in size, but a well-mated laying queen should get the colony back on track provided the population isn't extremely low, which you are indicating that it isn't.  The only real problem is if the workers start laying, because they won't accept a queen at that point.  Open brood, however, will prevent the workers ovaries from developing.  If you decide to just purchase a queen, I'd still ask your mentor for some open brood, since that will also give the population a boost, along with keeping the workers from laying.  You may have to go in and remove queen cells, if they build any, before you introduce your purchased queen.  The few extra days that the delayed release of the mated queen will take is neither here nor there.     

What I might be inclined to do in your instance is combine the nuc with your full-sized colony.  That will increase the population as well, and you'll only have to worry about getting one colony queenright.  Once the situation is resolved and the colony is built up, then you could split them and be back to two colonies.  Or maybe you'll catch another swarm or two.   

I poured them into the new Nuc box and my 86 year old mentor slammed the lid down before I could stop him. There were piles of bees on top of the frames and I heard the crunch of bees. I was concerned immediately he could have crunched the Queen.

 
I'm sure this is probably clear to you, but just to reiterate what you are already thinking, there is never a reason to slam down any equipment when working with bees.  All your movements should always be deliberate and controlled.   

[BeeMaster2]

What Member said x 2.

[Michael Bush]

The sooner you can give them a frame of open brood and some eggs the sooner you'll know the status and the sooner you'll head off any laying workers.

[Bill Murray]

I second that Michael, that would be my plan of attack 2 frames of open brood, one with plenty of eggs and just hatched eggs. Will keep the laying workers at bay, and give them something to pull a queen if needed

[Guitarman]

I?ll give you an update. Now don?t laugh. I can hear you laughing already. I went over to my 86-year-old friends house and I went through his three hives looking for some brood. It?s a little difficult with my dear friend helping me. I think he forgets why we are there. He kept putting the brood  frames back in before I could check them for eggs. It was so difficult. And he seem to forget after every minute or two. It was quite frustrating for me.

Out of the three hives, I spotted the Queen in two of them. Which I got excited about because I?ve never seen a queen in real life before. I was a little bit mesmerised and in awe seeing one in real life for the first time. I checked the majority of the brood frames and couldn?t find eggs anywhere. I thought for certain they would be on the frame with the Queen, and I was having trouble stopping my dear friend who kept trying to point the Queen out to me even though I had shown him the queen to start with. Almost killing her with his hive tool and his  unsteady hand. I actually had to yell at him to stop pointing at her that he was going to kill her. We had a couple of very close misses.  He is such a wonderful and kind man. And has a huge heart. But I think he?s past his best days of beekeeping and I suspect I will be looking after and inheriting his apiary and equipment within 12 months.
I never spotted one egg. There was lots of brood at various stages but no eggs. I looked everywhere but couldn?t find those tiny white eggs which I have seen before. So I never got any eggs to put in my hive. My hive is still queenless and starting to look a little weak now.

The upside.
My dear old friend got a couple of calls for swarms this week. I grabbed them both. And I made sure he didn?t use his heavy-handed crush them in the process of catching them. Both are doing very well and are looking very good in the nucs. So I feel a lot better that at least have some hives and I won?t be hiveless.

Today my dear friend took me to his other hives to  collect any supers full of honey. The minute we pulled up in the car, I told him they?re all dead. All four hives were dead. The varroa had killed them all. I warned  him last time when we lost a couple of hives that we had to do something about it before he lost them all. It?s not his fault totally. I bought a 30 pack of formic  pro and we had it for a couple of weeks now. But the weather?s been too hot. It?s been near the upper end of the do not use scale. It?s very difficult to treat with formic Pro in summer in Sydney.  We also bought the other chemical, the one you can?t have your Honey supers on. I told him we need to remove the Honey supers and we can treat them weeks ago when they were still very strong. But he didn?t want to remove the Honey supers. The supers were almost fully capped. They needed just another week. Those couple of weeks cost him all his hives at this location. At this stage with my new nucs, I probably have more hives than him now.

As we went through the dead hives, I pulled a couple of capped queen cells out. I have no idea if they?re still alive or not but there was so much varroa  even on the comb, I really don?t want to put them in my hive. I?m worried there?s  varroa  in the Queen cell as well. One of the queen cells has a pinhole which I?m certain is the varroa. I doubt it?s a queen about the break through. One of the young bees that had hatched recently, I counted seven mites  on it. I saw four and five on others. For those of you in Queensland. I don?t know what you guys are gonna do when Varroa  gets up there. Hopefully they will have approved treatments that you can use in the hot weather with supers. Or you guys are going to be decimated.

I?ve currently got the Queen cells pinned to a noticeboard in my kitchen. No I didn?t put the pin through the cell where the queen is. I did that because I read it?s important they stay upright and not lay them on their side.

 If they?re any good, can I just leave them in a container or something and will they emerge and then I can put them  into Queen excluder and put them in the hive? Or do they need to be kept at a certain temperature and humidity. If that?s the case, they?re probably dead but I did see some bees emerging from their cells that were well and truly alive in the dead hive.  Gave me hope queens maybe still alive.

[The15thMember]

Well, if it makes you feel better, Guitarman, I'm not laughing.    Sounds like a challenging situation with your mentor.  Those queen cells are almost certainly not viable, as developing bees need to be kept around 95F/35C, and if somehow they are alive, they are likely heavily infested with varroa.  If the new nucs seem to have good laying queens though, you can still do some combining to get your apiary queenright. 

[Terri Yaki]

All I can add is that sometimes I have to look pretty hard and hold the frames up into the light before I can see eggs. Larvae, on the other hand, are much easier to spot and are indications of a viable queen.

[Ben Framed]

All I can add is that sometimes I have to look pretty hard and hold the frames up into the light before I can see eggs. Larvae, on the other hand, are much easier to spot and are indications of a viable queen.

A pocket magnification glass will do wonders in that area. Turns human eyes into Hawkeyes! lol   😁

[Guitarman]

Thanks for that information.
I wasn?t keen on those Queen cells.

I?m hoping on Monday  to get delivery of a marker pen and a little gadget that holds the queen.  Then I?m going To try and find and mark the Queen in the nuc that?s about two weeks old now. Before I combine them. My thinking is, after losing my last queen due to the varroa treatment. It will be a lot easier if the queen is  marked. To check after treatment that she is alive. Also so you don?t alcohol wash her in the future. Unmarked is just too risky.

I have a question.
When I add the nuc to the queenless hive. Because I need to use paper to separate the two. Would I remove the super and excluder  and shake any bees on frames of super down into former brood box now almost full of honey.
Then do I put my sheet newspaper, another box on top and move the nuc frames plus 5 more into that box. Shake what?s left in, put excluder on top and super back on top. I end up with two brood boxes.

Or do I put the nuc bees in a box on the base and put excluder and newspaper on them and then the former brood and super on top. End up with one brood box.

Which raises a new question, I was always told you could only move bees a little bit each day unless you?re moving them long distances. When I move the nuc bees maybe 6 metres to the other hive will that cause a problem. Will they try and go back to their old spot.

[The15thMember]

It doesn't matter that much honestly.  What I would do is just put the paper on top of the top box of the big hive, jab one or two small slits in the paper with my hive tool to get the bees started, and then put an empty box on the paper.  In that new box put all the frames from the nuc and whatever extra frames you need to fill out the box.  Then put the lid on top of that.  This way the nuc bees are trapped in the top, and by the time they chew through the paper and meet their new housemates, they will likely reorient when they reach the hive entrance for the first time.  Once the colonies are combined, then you can rearrange the hive so that it's convenient for you to inspect.  Any foragers that happen to be out when you move the nuc may be confused for a bit, but if you have a flow on they should be allowed to enter the other colonies once they realize their hive has been moved. 

[Guitarman]

Thanks 15th.

Another question not related.
I?ve caught three swarms in the last couple of weeks. One swarm stayed in the nuc box no trouble. Another swarm took off the next day but I saw it happen and chased them and recaptured them. Before I put them back in the same box, I hosed it all out and cleaned it and put different frames in there. They?ve been in there now for a couple of days and seem very happy. The third took off after two days today when I wasn?t present and their now gone.
Is this normal behaviour of captured swarms  or do they not like  something about their new homes I?m giving them.

[The15thMember]

That can be normal.  Swarms are in the middle of debating new home locations when you unceremoniously shove them into a box.  So some colonies are like, "Hey, look at this place!  This seems pretty neat!  Now we don't have to figure out a place to live!" and they happily set up shop.  But some colonies are like, "What is this place?!  This isn't anything like we were looking for!  Whose idea was this anyway?!" and they promptly return to the branch to continue their own debate about prospective home sites. 

The easiest way to get colonies to stay is to give them a frame of open brood, something that's obviously not an option for you at the moment, unfortunately.  A colony that finds babies in a box will rarely abandon them.     

 

[Guitarman]

Oh wow, thanks 15th.
I didn?t know that. That?s handy to keep up my sleeve. Will also let my mentor know. A frame of open brood. I haven?t read that or come across that.

We have a couple of cool days here in Sydney. Trying to wake my mentor up so I can go and do an alcohol wash on his remaining hives and treat them for varroa if needed. We might not get another window of cool weather this summer.