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Author Topic: Dead Bees and Strange Landing Board Behavior  (Read 3262 times)

Offline The15thMember

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Dead Bees and Strange Landing Board Behavior
« on: May 02, 2022, 05:05:27 pm »
I split my usurper colony on 4/21.  I moved Queen Ravenna, a frame or two of pollen, and all the capped worker brood to a new hive, and I left the original hive with all the open worker brood and several frames of pollen, and I gave both colonies the last of my stored partial honey frames from last fall since our spring flow didn't materialize.  On 4/29 I checked the original hive and reduced their queen cells from 12 to 2.  I didn't notice anything unusual during this inspection, although I was predominantly focused on find queen cells.  Before I did the split I checked their mites via sugar roll and it was 0.  I've done a sugar roll on them every month since the beginning of the season and haven't found a mite yet. For reference my other colonies are around 0-1% right now.   

Yesterday or maybe the day before, I noticed a small crowd of foragers on the landing board of the original hive.  They were kind of just standing around, a few were sharing food via trophallaxis with each other, I noticed it but didn't really think anything of it.  Today at about 3:30 I went out to look at the bees and both halves of this split have a decent pile of dead bees out front, maybe 100-200 bees, many of them drones, just right off the landing board in front of the entrance.  Also the crowd of bees on the landing board of the original hive was conspicuously larger today, maybe 20-30 bees.  Still some engaged in trophallaxis with each other, but some of them were walking around almost on tiptoe, vigorously trying to clean themselves although none appeared to have anything on them.  Many of them looked overgroomed, with hair on their thoraxes and/or abdomen missing, and few were almost entirely bald.  Most of them were older-looking foragers, and several had pretty tattered wings.  The new hive with the queen had normal looking traffic, although a bit lighter than the other hives since their forager force is still pretty small, but that would be expected.  All the other hives in the yard look normal.

Any thoughts?   
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Offline beesnweeds

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Re: Dead Bees and Strange Landing Board Behavior
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2022, 05:50:58 pm »
Just guessing from your description to me it sounds like CBPV.   Nothing you can do but feed if they need it.  I found it clears up on its own.  I always requeen any hives that show signs of CBPV like you described.
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Offline The15thMember

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Re: Dead Bees and Strange Landing Board Behavior
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2022, 07:34:12 pm »
Just guessing from your description to me it sounds like CBPV.   Nothing you can do but feed if they need it.  I found it clears up on its own.  I always requeen any hives that show signs of CBPV like you described.
Thanks, I'll do some looking at that, and I'll be sure to keep food on them if the spring flow continues to fail. 
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Offline Beeboy01

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Re: Dead Bees and Strange Landing Board Behavior
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2022, 10:32:32 am »
I'm still cleaning up after IAPV hit my yard and killed off four out of five of my hives. The symptoms were thousands of dead bees on the ground in front of the hives with hundreds of live bees stumbling around and falling over. I wouldn't wish it on anybody. I still think some poisoning was involved but can't prove it. Good luck, the only think that can be done is let it run it's course.
   

Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Dead Bees and Strange Landing Board Behavior
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2022, 01:10:26 pm »
Beeboy,
Did you by chance add supers to the hives just before this happened? If so, did you have moth crystals protecting them for winter storage.
I put a couple of frames in a strong hive in my observation hive and within hours they were showing signs of distress next day there were hundreds of dead bees in the bottom and the bees looked like zombies all vertical in the hive. They lasted another day and the queen was the last one to die. The only thing I could figure out was that I must have grabbed the frames that had not been aired out. It was very upsetting.
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Offline Beeboy01

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Re: Dead Bees and Strange Landing Board Behavior
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2022, 03:55:04 pm »
Beemaster2, I didn't add any supers to the hives before the die off. I use paramoth crystals when the boxes are in storage but learned the hard way to air them out for at least a week before adding them to a hive. I did treat the hives with OAV about ten days before the problem occurred but I've never had anything like this happen post OAV treatment. I'm leaning to IAPV which was identified at a low to moderate level in my yard last summer along with possibly getting into a poison which stressed the hives to the point of collapse.  Instead of a poison there could of been a secondary virus carried by the mites. Even though I treated all of the drones I picked up out in front of the hives carried mites so the treatment wasn't effective and I'm thinking it was a combination of stressors that caused the crash.
   15th member, from your description of the bees I would think that the dead ones were older field bees who are at the end of their life span. The dead drones could just be some house cleaning of already mated drones or ones that aren't needed. Sounds like the hives are doing just fine. Keep you eyes open for pollen going into the split, it's a quick check to see if the new queen has started laying.   

Offline The15thMember

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Re: Dead Bees and Strange Landing Board Behavior
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2022, 04:31:12 pm »
   15th member, from your description of the bees I would think that the dead ones were older field bees who are at the end of their life span. The dead drones could just be some house cleaning of already mated drones or ones that aren't needed. Sounds like the hives are doing just fine. Keep you eyes open for pollen going into the split, it's a quick check to see if the new queen has started laying.   
I was talking about this to someone else the other day and he mentioned something that's a very good point.  These are the first new, unrelated bees I've had in my yard in years, and it's possible that they are more sensitive to the abnormal spring dearth we've been having, and they tossed out the drones while the other hives didn't.  I'll be inspecting the queen-right half of the split this weekend, so we'll see what they look like.  There were a few bees on the landing board this morning over-grooming themselves, but not as many as yesterday.  I did feed that colony to help give them a boost if indeed anything is amiss.  I'm feeding most of my colonies right now just because we haven't had a decent flow yet.  The blackberries look like they are about ready to start, so hopefully they'll help turn things around. 
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline The15thMember

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Re: Dead Bees and Strange Landing Board Behavior
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2022, 05:39:45 pm »
I just went up to look at the bees again because this is the same time of day I noticed them yesterday, and there are just as many bees grooming on the original hive as yesterday, and one of my other hives had a few bees doing it today where they weren't before.  This new hive doesn't have the pile of drones, so I'm going to say that is unrelated, as this new hive is genetically unrelated to the other two.  The affected bees' behavior looks like a panicked grooming.  They are not stumbling around or gyrating incoherently, they are just grooming as if something is really irritating their cuticle, something that I can't see and they can't seem to get off.  It really makes me wonder if they didn't get into a something (pesticide/herbicide/etc.).  On the hives that are acting normal, sometimes the bees fly in, they groom themselves for a few minutes, especially if they are carrying pollen, and then they go in, and their grooming is casual.  These bees look like a person would if you dumped a load of ants on them, and they were trying to brush them off while screaming "GET THEM OFF ME!"     
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline TheHoneyPump

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Re: Dead Bees and Strange Landing Board Behavior
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2022, 06:20:46 pm »
Keep checking on them periodically. Excessive grooming is often a symptom of some of the common virus`. If you start seeing hairless shiny bees from all that grooming pulling their hairs out .. you know that they have contracted something.  Maybe grab a sample of 20 -50 of those weird acting bees and send them for analysis.  Check with your regional inspector for the protocol.
Irritations from mites also cause alot of extra grooming.  We know you know how t check for those and how to control them.
Otherwise, they just may be feeling frisky or itchy for whatever reasons of whatever they may have got into.
Tossing drones is usually weather/climate conditions (cold, wet, dearth) , or the hive simply felt they were carrying too many, or the drones had whole tag teams of mites on them and just died off. 
Lotsa possibilities, few data points.
When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Offline Kathyp

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Re: Dead Bees and Strange Landing Board Behavior
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2022, 06:23:55 pm »
Quote
These bees look like a person would if you dumped a load of ants on them, and they were trying to brush them off while screaming "GET THEM OFF ME!"     

I love your descriptions.  :grin:  Another thing to remember is that different bees genetically have different grooming habits.  People look for good groomers for lower mite counts...just an example, but something to consider if all else looks good inside.

Your bees may also be responding to the dearth by cleaning out drones.  Drones are a drag on the hive if there isn't enough food. 

A small hive may have experienced robbing and that would account for the dead bees. 

Let us know what you find inside when you do a deep dive again.  I would advise that you not reduce queen cells in the future.  Let them decide who lives a dies.  It won't make any difference in the hive and you are more likely to get a good queen. 

Someone really ought to tell them that the world of Ayn Rand?s novel was not meant to be aspirational.

Offline The15thMember

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Re: Dead Bees and Strange Landing Board Behavior
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2022, 07:45:13 pm »
Keep checking on them periodically. Excessive grooming is often a symptom of some of the common virus`. If you start seeing hairless shiny bees from all that grooming pulling their hairs out .. you know that they have contracted something.  Maybe grab a sample of 20 -50 of those weird acting bees and send them for analysis.  Check with your regional inspector for the protocol.
Irritations from mites also cause alot of extra grooming.  We know you know how t check for those and how to control them.
Otherwise, they just may be feeling frisky or itchy for whatever reasons of whatever they may have got into.
I'll look into seeing if I can get analysis done on them.  I am seeing several bees with that shiny look to them, I'm just wondering if that could be caused by the overgrooming alone.  I'm planning on hitting all the splits with OAV coming up this week or next while they are broodless, as part of my mite management plan this year, so it will be interesting to see what sort of drop I get when I do that.   

A little bit of a rabbit hole here, but I've been reading old ABJs lately, and I came upon an article discussing those shiny hairless bees in the Feb. 1861 issue.  The article was debunking the theory that these shiny bees laid the drone eggs in the colony, while the queen laid the worker eggs.  I found it interesting that people noticed bees that looked like this before varroa.  Obviously there were still viruses before varroa, so it may not say anything either way, but they were common enough that people thought they had a normal function in the colony, and weren't evidence of a sick colony.  I just found it surprising. 

Quote
These bees look like a person would if you dumped a load of ants on them, and they were trying to brush them off while screaming "GET THEM OFF ME!"     

I love your descriptions.  :grin:
Thanks.  :cheesy:

Another thing to remember is that different bees genetically have different grooming habits.  People look for good groomers for lower mite counts...just an example, but something to consider if all else looks good inside. 
This is a good point, but as I said, this just didn't look normal.  This wasn't bees who were a little more interested in grooming, this looked like bees who were desperate to be cleaned off. 

Tossing drones is usually weather/climate conditions (cold, wet, dearth) , or the hive simply felt they were carrying too many, or the drones had whole tag teams of mites on them and just died off. 
Your bees may also be responding to the dearth by cleaning out drones.  Drones are a drag on the hive if there isn't enough food. 
Based on the fact that both halves of the split have the piles of drones, and only one half of the split and now another hive without a pile of drones are doing the overgrooming, I am pretty well convinced that the drone dumping is just a genetic thing with these new bees and has nothing to do with the overgrooming.  As HP said, it seems like a response to the dearth.

A small hive may have experienced robbing and that would account for the dead bees.   

I have been keeping pretty close of an eye on the splits and haven't seen any robbing, and I'm also not sure why robbing would result in mostly dead drones as opposed to workers, so I'm fairly sure that robbing isn't a contributing factor.

I would advise that you not reduce queen cells in the future.  Let them decide who lives a dies.  It won't make any difference in the hive and you are more likely to get a good queen. 
I have done this before and have gotten swarms when I did, and I also had one hive basically swarm to death.  I do always leave a couple, usually 2-4 so there is still some competition, but I don't leave them all anymore. 

Lotsa possibilities, few data points.
Let us know what you find inside when you do a deep dive again. 
I certainly will keep everyone informed on what's going on and thanks for all the responses.  It's one of those mysterious curveballs bees can throw at you.  We'll see if we can untangle the situation. 



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Offline Kathyp

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Re: Dead Bees and Strange Landing Board Behavior
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2022, 07:58:49 pm »
Quote
I have done this before and have gotten swarms when I did, and I also had one hive basically swarm to death.  I do always leave a couple, usually 2-4 so there is still some competition, but I don't leave them all anymore.

That can happen if they are going to swarm anyway.  Can't tell you how many late swarms I have picked up that had one or more virgin queens in them!  When you do a split and remove the queen, the mother hive is usually not going to swarm.  Of course, there's no hard and fast rule to hives because they do what they do and some are swarmy from the start.

I know the advice from many is to limit the number of cells in a hive after you do the split.  The reason I advise against it is that I have seen too many end up queenless because they took all but a couple of cells and those they left either didn't develop, or the queen was not to the liking of the hive. 
It's a judgment thing and we all do what we find works.  I kind of fall into the camp of believing the hive does what it does for a reason even if the reason has escaped me.   :grin:





Someone really ought to tell them that the world of Ayn Rand?s novel was not meant to be aspirational.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Dead Bees and Strange Landing Board Behavior
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2022, 03:15:05 am »
Keep checking on them periodically. Excessive grooming is often a symptom of some of the common virus`. If you start seeing hairless shiny bees from all that grooming pulling their hairs out .. you know that they have contracted something.  Maybe grab a sample of 20 -50 of those weird acting bees and send them for analysis.  Check with your regional inspector for the protocol.
Irritations from mites also cause alot of extra grooming.  We know you know how t check for those and how to control them.
Otherwise, they just may be feeling frisky or itchy for whatever reasons of whatever they may have got into.
Tossing drones is usually weather/climate conditions (cold, wet, dearth) , or the hive simply felt they were carrying too many, or the drones had whole tag teams of mites on them and just died off. 
Lotsa possibilities, few data points.


Thanks for this post TheHoneyPump.

Phillip
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14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Dead Bees and Strange Landing Board Behavior
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2022, 05:58:30 pm »
Member, how is the hive coming along?
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline The15thMember

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Re: Dead Bees and Strange Landing Board Behavior
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2022, 08:22:32 pm »
Member, how is the hive coming along?
There are still bees exhibiting the strange behavior on the landing board of this hive and sometimes a few bees on another landing board.  Some days there are less bees acting strange and some days it's about the same as when I first noticed.  I inspected the queenright half of the split and everything was totally normal in there, and they aren't doing this on the landing board.  I'll be inspecting the weird hive next weekend to check for a new queen, and I'm very curious as to what things will look like in there. 
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Offline The15thMember

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Re: Dead Bees and Strange Landing Board Behavior
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2022, 02:02:52 pm »
Just wanted to update everyone on this situation.  I inspected this weird hive a few days ago.  I didn't see the new queen, but I found a few eggs, so I'm hoping all is well on that front.  They had a huge amount of nectar and sugar water stored, so I freed them up some space for the new queen to lay.  There were also an absolute TON of drones in there.  Other than a seeing some of those shiny hairless bees, everything seemed normal.  They are still acting strange on the landing board, and none of the other hives are showing any consistently similar behavior.  Some days are worse and some days are better. 
Here's a picture of the strange hive:


And here is another hive for comparison:


I'm anxious for the queen to really begin laying to see how the brood seems.  I'll keep you all posted. 
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline TheHoneyPump

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Dead Bees and Strange Landing Board Behavior
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2022, 05:15:21 pm »
When you are waiting on a queen, it is normal for a hive to draw in drones from the surrounding are.  They smell the virgin from afar and are attracted to the hive. They move in and loiter while waiting for her to head out.  I see this often in mating nucs.  In the nucs there is no in-hive source of drones. But each will pickup 50-100 drones within a day or two of the ripe cell emerging.
That is the case when virgin queens are present.  The other case of lots of drones is when the hive is producing them. The scenarios for producing drones are.
- abundance. Lots of bees and resources. Drones are produced in pre-swarming preps. When patches of drone cells are being raised and seen walking around in the hives, swarm season is upon you and is time to be attentive and diligent at inspections to curb it.
- failed mating, a good queen present but she is an infertile drone layer
- old queen running out of stored viable sperm.  Shot gun pattern develops as bees remove the unfertilized eggs from the laid patch, unless the bees are ready for drones; they would then develop them. 
- Laying workers.  Only produce unfertilized eggs that develop into drones.
When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Offline The15thMember

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Re: Dead Bees and Strange Landing Board Behavior
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2022, 07:26:21 pm »
I inspected this hive again today.  I still found no queen, and I'm pretty sure they have gone laying worker.  I saw drones in worker cells, cells with multiple eggs, cells with eggs on the walls, and I even saw a worker with her butt in a cell being harassed by another worker.  The landing board behavior seemed like it was lessening recently, although due to life I wasn't up in the apiary the second half of this week until today, so I'm not sure if that trend is continuing consistently.  They do have a very developed queen cell, but I'm not sure where they could have gotten a female egg, as there was no other brood in the whole hive, so unless it's one of those REALLY rare parthenogenesis times, I'm thinking it's probably a drone larva. 

So here's the question: What's the risk to the other hives if I shake them out?  Based on their weird behavior, what's the likelihood that they are sick, and would just spread it to all my other hives?  On the other hand, there are still a lot of bees in this hive, it seems a shame to just waste them by euthanizing the whole hive.  This hive also has a TON of drones, as I mentioned, and I imagine they are already spreading around to the other hives, and all the other hives are still acting totally normal.  Opinions?       
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Offline TheHoneyPump

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Dead Bees and Strange Landing Board Behavior
« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2022, 10:35:43 am »
If the bee looks sick. Euthanize.
If the bee looks healthy but were just acting a bit weird, shake them out. A day after the shake out there will be piles of dead bees on ground in front of other hives.  Those would be the laying workers whom the hives have refused entry and/or weird bees that the hive also rejected. 
Hope that helps.
When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Offline Kathyp

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Re: Dead Bees and Strange Landing Board Behavior
« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2022, 02:19:11 pm »
One other thing...Make sure that you are not seeing a young queen.  Young queens can misfire when they start laying.  Sometimes people mistake the multiple eggs in a cell for laying workers.  Sometimes the workers will be trying to "guide" that new queen to do things the right way   :cheesy:
If you have laying workerS, you should be able to watch and see more than one trying to lay.  There's never just one.  Brood pattern matters too, although new queens can mess that up a bit too.

Just double check before you dump them. 

You can always take pics of the frames and cells and post them. 
Someone really ought to tell them that the world of Ayn Rand?s novel was not meant to be aspirational.

 

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