Can i move frames from bottom brood box to top?

[OhMyBees]

>  To clarify - right now I have the deep that is mostly full and the medium that they've started drawing comb out on -
So in theory...they do have room, right?


Right
Adding again, You may consider also the suggestion of The15thmember. If you prefer all mediums now would be the time. Simply use all mediums in the future. A lot less weight when full of honey and everything will be interchangeable.

Thanks! Since the current deep box is full of brood at the moment, I think i'll move forward with the larger deeps for now. THank you for all the help!!!!

[Ben Framed]

Your welcome

[OhMyBees]

My next point is of beekeeper equipment preference. To avoid all kinds of issues later, do not ever mix box and frame sizes for the brood chambers. Pick one size and stick with it. Standardize. Hive management is significantly simplified in flexibility and lowest cost by using the same size for everything. Being able to take a frame from anywhere and put that frame anywhere goes a long way when you are standing in the middle of a bee yard with equipment spread out, bees in the air and a thunderstorm barrelling in.

On the size equipment standardizing, my advice is whatever you do, do not let her lay in the mediums. Use the mediums strictly for honey. Medium frames just are not deep(tall) enough for the queen brood patch to reach her potential; hindering their nest growth and organization of stores. Use a queen excluder to manage the queen. Using a QE, YOU decide where the queen is and where she isn't. If you are going to use mediums for brood as well, then get rid of the deeps and go all mediums for everything. Standardize.

I use all mediums, and would highly recommend it for the reasons that HP stated.  It's much easier to be able to put any frame anywhere anytime, and all mediums is much easier to lift than all deeps.   

With 7 frames of brood on the go, and a flow. You have less than a week to get this done before they are into full on swarm mode.
You could put a queen excluder on and put the medium above it. If they accept it and start pushing incoming nectar up could hold them until you get the new box. But that will not hold the queen, she is already out of space and looking for an excuse to leave.
I would recommend expediting the new deep box.

HP, if she wants to switch to all mediums (not saying you definitely are, OhMyBees, just hypothetically), could she begin that process now and thereby avoid purchasing and shipping a box that she isn't going need in the future?   

I purchased my hive as a hive rather than buying a nuc or package, so i'm kind of stuck with the deep for now given that it's really built out already. Did you begin with all mediums or did you eventually transition to them?

[iddee]

Two things I disagree with in honeypump's directions.

1. I would never recommend a queen excluder for a "less than 3 year" keep. Just too many things to go wrong. Excluders are best left to experienced keeps.

2. If you leave the medium off the hive for a week, it will be destroyed by moths and SHB.

A 10 frame deep is 11 pieces, not just 1. It never has to be lifted as 1 unit when full, so weight is not a factor.

[The15thMember]

I purchased my hive as a hive rather than buying a nuc or package, so i'm kind of stuck with the deep for now given that it's really built out already. Did you begin with all mediums or did you eventually transition to them?

So I did something a little bit different.  I put a spin on the traditional "deeps for brood and mediums for honey" setup, and my plan was to use mediums for brood and shallows for honey, because I'm pretty weak, and I figured I couldn't lift a deep of anything or a medium of honey.  The issue was that I'm all foundationless, and getting shallow frames drawn fast enough and straight enough in the mediums so I could move them up to the shallows proved way to challenging, so I switched to all mediums my second year and turned all my shallow boxes into moisture quilts.  So I did have to transition to one box size, but I didn't have to transition any brood, which is much more challenging than transitioning honey, since you can just cut out all the honey and eat it if it's causing too much trouble.    You COULD do that with the brood too, but I don't know many people in this country who would think brood was very good to eat. 

Two things I disagree with in honeypump's directions.

1. I would never recommend a queen excluder for a "less than 3 year" keep. Just too many things to go wrong. Excluders are best left to experienced keeps.

I also do not use QXs. 

2. If you leave the medium off the hive for a week, it will be destroyed by moths and SHB.

Unless you can store it in a freezer.  Or freeze the comb and store it somewhere airtight. 

A 10 frame deep is 11 pieces, not just 1. It never has to be lifted as 1 unit when full, so weight is not a factor.

This is true and it's what I do now with my mediums of honey.  Get the whole family out to the yard, I hand everyone one frame and in two trips the whole box is in the house and no one has a back injury. 

[2Sox]

My next point is of beekeeper equipment preference. To avoid all kinds of issues later, do not ever mix box and frame sizes for the brood chambers. Pick one size and stick with it. Standardize. Hive management is significantly simplified in flexibility and lowest cost by using the same size for everything. Being able to take a frame from anywhere and put that frame anywhere goes a long way when you are standing in the middle of a bee yard with equipment spread out, bees in the air and a thunderstorm barrelling in.

On the size equipment standardizing, my advice is whatever you do, do not let her lay in the mediums. Use the mediums strictly for honey. Medium frames just are not deep(tall) enough for the queen brood patch to reach her potential; hindering their nest growth and organization of stores. Use a queen excluder to manage the queen. Using a QE, YOU decide where the queen is and where she isn't. If you are going to use mediums for brood as well, then get rid of the deeps and go all mediums for everything. Standardize.

I use all mediums, and would highly recommend it for the reasons that HP stated.  It's much easier to be able to put any frame anywhere anytime, and all mediums is much easier to lift than all deeps.   

With 7 frames of brood on the go, and a flow. You have less than a week to get this done before they are into full on swarm mode.
You could put a queen excluder on and put the medium above it. If they accept it and start pushing incoming nectar up could hold them until you get the new box. But that will not hold the queen, she is already out of space and looking for an excuse to leave.
I would recommend expediting the new deep box.

HP, if she wants to switch to all mediums (not saying you definitely are, OhMyBees, just hypothetically), could she begin that process now and thereby avoid purchasing and shipping a box that she isn't going need in the future?   

I purchased my hive as a hive rather than buying a nuc or package, so i'm kind of stuck with the deep for now given that it's really built out already. Did you begin with all mediums or did you eventually transition to them?

You can transition from deeps to mediums anytime, if you want to.  It may seem obvious but you can start mixing your deeps with mediums by placing frames of each into two stacked mediums. Eventually you will cull out all the deeps after awhile. You may have to clean out some burr comb from time to time but it all works out. I?ve taken over hives from others who worked with deeps and that is what I did because I only have mediums.

[2Sox]

To answer the original question;  yes it is ok to move brood up and down between the boxes. I do it all the time. Especially during late spring / early summer period. The critical point is to put brood over brood. Meaning if you put brood in the 2nd box, ensure brood left in the bottom box is under it.

My next point is of beekeeper equipment preference. However to avoid all kinds of issues later, do not ever mix box and frame sizes for the brood chambers. Pick one size and stick with it. Standardize. Hive management is significantly simplified in flexibility and lowest cost by using the same size for everything. Being able to take a frame from anywhere and put that frame anywhere goes a long way when you are standing in the middle of a bee yard with equipment spread out, bees in the air and a thunderstorm barrelling in.

On the size equipment standardizing, my advice is whatever you do, do not let her lay in the mediums. Use the mediums strictly for honey. Medium frames just are not deep(tall) enough for the queen brood patch to reach her potential; hindering their nest growth and organization of stores. Use a queen excluder to manage the queen. Using a QE, YOU decide where the queen is and where she isn't. If you are going to use mediums for brood as well, then get rid of the deeps and go all mediums for everything. Standardize.

OK, now looking at the hive as you describe it. You have a 10 frame box of bees doing well with 7 frames of brood on the go and 1 foundation left. Conditions are that you have fair weather and at least 3 weeks of good nectar flows ahead. Given those parameters, here is what I would do.
- immediately remove the medium and set that aside for later.
- bring over a second deep box full of frames.
- set the new box down next to the hive on the upturned lid, so bees do not fall into the grass or on ground below - especially the queen. Take all of the frames out of the new box and set them aside.
- now you are going to reconfigure the hive as follows:  B=brood, H=honey, E= misc drawn comb, F=foundation, P=pollen
- as much as possible use drawn comb frames. if you have only foundation that is fine, it is just alot more work for the bees. Put an empty drawn comb or a foundation wherever there is an E indicated.  Wherever there is an F, put an empty drawn comb if you have.
- go into the bottom box. Get started pulling frames and transferring them into the empty top box sitting on the lid.

Top Box: 10F deep
HPBBFBBEEH
The F in the top box is that one undrawn frame from the bottom box.
(place the oldest capped and emerging brood in the top box)

Bottom Box: 10F deep
FFEBBBEFFF
(place the youngest open brood and eggs in the bottom box)

Put the newly filled top box on, put the lid on, cleanup around the hive and walk away.

What is going to happen. Bees and queens naturally work from the top down, not the bottom up. If the queen is not already on one of the brood frames you put into the top box, she will likely be up there minutes after you put the lid on the hive and walk away. She will fill out the upper box with brood. When she runs out of space to work she will move down. Nectar and honey gets pushed up. As the brood emerges in the upper box, the bees will back fill it with nectar, pushing the queen down. She will then work at filling out the bottom box. When she is done in the bottom she will try to go up again. If the top is out of space, she will bounce between the top and bottom ... that is when she will lay in swarm cups along the bottom bars of the frames of the top box.

Give them time to work-over the new box and new frames. But not too much time as to cause the queen to be bouncing between them looking for space. Stay ahead of them and give them more space to push nectar up into.  So, in 1 week to 10 days after adding that second box, you will next add a queen excluder on top of the second box and THEN put that medium super on above the QE. Keep stacking your medium suppers above, as they are filled, until the flow stops. Then go harvest your medium supers of honey.

Thank you! Thank you! Wow, i appreciate so much the thorough direction you've provided and the time you've taken in writing it all out! The only problem is that where I live, I have to order boxes and frames, so it would be about a week before i'd be able to get my hands on another deep, and even then it'll only have foundation. Will that timing impact anything?

I learned a lot from his post here too. I second that thank you, HP.  By the way, HP also gave you the solution to your swarming concern - by breaking up the brood nest.  If you have not read Michael Bush, I?d highly recommend his writings on a variety of subjects - this being one of them.

http://www.bushfarms.com/bees.htm

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