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Offline .30WCF

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Wired looking bees
« on: June 02, 2021, 01:11:17 pm »
Lately I?ve been seeing unusual looking bees in my hives. There are a handful of smaller, hairless bees in the hives. They have darker backs and a solid black butt vs the more striped pattern of the standard Italian mutt.





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Offline TheHoneyPump

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Wired looking bees
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2021, 01:32:25 pm »
https://bee-health.extension.org/honey-bee-viruses-the-deadly-varroa-mite-associates/
Checkout the picture under CBPV.
Keep a keen eye on it. Check every few days to see if it is getting worse. If necessary isolate the hive for 14 days and get them to maskup if you can.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2021, 02:41:20 pm by TheHoneyPump »
When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

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Re: Wired looking bees
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2021, 01:48:07 pm »
The thread going about black bees applies here.  This bee is just colored differently from the black one in the pictures on that thread. 
https://beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=54510.0
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Offline .30WCF

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Re: Wired looking bees
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2021, 01:51:22 pm »
Hmmm. Thanks. These are the hives that went queenless during a formic pro treatment and went an abnormally long time without a queen. They swarmed with the new virgins and I had to add eggs for them to raise a queen again. They should all have a new queen, but new troops won?t emerge for a few weeks.


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Offline .30WCF

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Re: Wired looking bees
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2021, 01:53:34 pm »
The thread going about black bees applies here.  This bee is just colored differently from the black one in the pictures on that thread. 
https://beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=54510.0
Thanks. I?ve seen no other signs of sickness and mites shouldn?t be an issue. I can do a wash to verify. They have been primarily broodless since the formic pro a a couple months ago.


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Offline AR Beekeeper

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Re: Wired looking bees
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2021, 01:54:49 pm »
The bees in the photo have a virus disease called Chronic Bee Paralysis.  It comes in two forms, one of which causes the bees to lose their hair and develop a greasy look.  The healthy bees will remove the sick ones from the hive and the affected bees will die outside of the hive.  The other form of the virus will cause mass crawling and death outside of the hive.  The bees will have abnormal wing angles and swollen abdomens and will quiver as they crawl.

Over the years I have had both forms in my bees, the colony will usually show little affect to the population, slowly the affected bees disappear and the colony returns to normal.  I have had one or two colonies that showed large numbers of affected bees that went queenless and failed to requeen and died.  Other than reducing stress on the colony I know of nothing the beekeeper can do for CBPV.

Offline .30WCF

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Re: Wired looking bees
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2021, 02:08:20 pm »
My assumption on the first round of failed queens was the formic pro killed the queen, or they balled her. The queens that emerged were runty emergency queens that were probably older larvae that got drafted into service. They swarmed and or failed. I?ve been boosting them along with eggs and brood. I guess I might be throwing good money after bad this way though if it is a virus. Otherwise, nothing has been alarming.


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Offline .30WCF

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Re: Wired looking bees
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2021, 02:12:47 pm »
The bees in the photo have a virus disease called Chronic Bee Paralysis.  It comes in two forms, one of which causes the bees to lose their hair and develop a greasy look.  The healthy bees will remove the sick ones from the hive and the affected bees will die outside of the hive.  The other form of the virus will cause mass crawling and death outside of the hive.  The bees will have abnormal wing angles and swollen abdomens and will quiver as they crawl.

Over the years I have had both forms in my bees, the colony will usually show little affect to the population, slowly the affected bees disappear and the colony returns to normal.  I have had one or two colonies that showed large numbers of affected bees that went queenless and failed to requeen and died.  Other than reducing stress on the colony I know of nothing the beekeeper can do for CBPV.
As of now I would say it?s minimal. A double deep with two supers might have 10 of these bees in it. Maybe it?s just early though.


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Offline paus

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Re: Wired looking bees
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2021, 03:37:11 pm »
Is it possible that the queen mated with a drone that exhibits these genetic characteristics?

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Re: Wired looking bees
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2021, 07:04:55 pm »
Hmmm. Thanks. These are the hives that went queenless during a formic pro treatment and went an abnormally long time without a queen. They swarmed with the new virgins and I had to add eggs for them to raise a queen again. They should all have a new queen, but new troops won?t emerge for a few weeks.


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Thanks. I?ve seen no other signs of sickness and mites shouldn?t be an issue. I can do a wash to verify. They have been primarily broodless since the formic pro a a couple months ago.


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If they've been very long without new brood, I think it could just be bees that are old and have lost a lot of their hair.  But I agree you should keep a close eye on it, as viral symptoms can be very similar to this. 
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Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Wired looking bees
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2021, 08:29:26 pm »
Keep in mind that having 10 bees that look like they may bee sick out of 30,000 bees is like worrying that you are loosing your hair because 10 hairs fell out.
Jim Altmiller
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Wired looking bees
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2021, 10:45:23 pm »
Someone else posted pictures of bees which looked like these a while back. I tried to find the old post but could not.
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Wired looking bees
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2021, 11:02:50 pm »
https://bee-health.extension.org/honey-bee-viruses-the-deadly-varroa-mite-associates/
Checkout the picture under CBPV.
Keep a keen eye on it. Check every few days to see if it is getting worse. If necessary isolate the hive for 14 days and get them to maskup if you can.

Mr HoneyPump this is a good post. Do you, or anyone else here know, if the hairless sickly bees are waxie looking from the time the hair is gone, or do they develop this waxie look a little later?

Adding, the sick bees in image 5 in the article, look just like the bee in the OP... Not quite as waxie as the dead ones; yet..




                                                                                                                                                                               
« Last Edit: June 02, 2021, 11:23:12 pm by Ben Framed »
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline LawyerRick

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Re: Wired looking bees
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2021, 11:29:27 pm »
The bees in the photo have a virus disease called Chronic Bee Paralysis.  It comes in two forms, one of which causes the bees to lose their hair and develop a greasy look.  The healthy bees will remove the sick ones from the hive and the affected bees will die outside of the hive.  The other form of the virus will cause mass crawling and death outside of the hive.  The bees will have abnormal wing angles and swollen abdomens and will quiver as they crawl.

Over the years I have had both forms in my bees, the colony will usually show little affect to the population, slowly the affected bees disappear and the colony returns to normal.  I have had one or two colonies that showed large numbers of affected bees that went queenless and failed to requeen and died.  Other than reducing stress on the colony I know of nothing the beekeeper can do for CBPV.
I have used a solution of 1% Reishi mushroom extract & sugar water, 2 quarts over 7 days.  According to the 2018 article, the extract lowers viral loads in honey bees, up to 800 fold.  I had an outbreak of CBPV in 2019 & gave them the solution & all was good in 3 weeks.  During this 3 week period, the number of sick bees decreased & I saw a more content hive.  I saw no adverse effects of using the mushroom mixture on brood, workers, drones or queens.  I understand that updated research results will be forthcoming on the subject by the Washington state University bee lab and Paul Stamets.

Offline .30WCF

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Re: Wired looking bees
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2021, 02:33:11 am »
Keep in mind that having 10 bees that look like they may bee sick out of 30,000 bees is like worrying that you are loosing your hair because 10 hairs fell out.
Jim Altmiller
Yeah, I wasn?t worried until we started talking about viruses. Still not terribly worried. I might do a mite count tomorrow or Friday for reassurance. I figured it was a was a cross breed of some sort. Good to know to be aware of the viruses though.
When I say there might be ten in there, I mean there might be 5-10. I?ll look into it and make sure they get the brood boost if they need it. Just hope I?m not at the top of a slippery slope now. I kinda have more than I want to deal with at 8 hives, so, if a couple go it won?t hurt my feelings unless they spread and take them all. I don?t feel like they are at that point yet though.


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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Wired looking bees
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2021, 12:27:04 pm »
The bees in the photo have a virus disease called Chronic Bee Paralysis.  It comes in two forms, one of which causes the bees to lose their hair and develop a greasy look.  The healthy bees will remove the sick ones from the hive and the affected bees will die outside of the hive.  The other form of the virus will cause mass crawling and death outside of the hive.  The bees will have abnormal wing angles and swollen abdomens and will quiver as they crawl.

Over the years I have had both forms in my bees, the colony will usually show little affect to the population, slowly the affected bees disappear and the colony returns to normal.  I have had one or two colonies that showed large numbers of affected bees that went queenless and failed to requeen and died.  Other than reducing stress on the colony I know of nothing the beekeeper can do for CBPV.

Thanks for enlightening us with your first hand experience of this virus. It is good to know the details of what may be expected.
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Wired looking bees
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2021, 05:58:28 pm »
Plagues start with a single infected individual.  The pic containing a glossy, waxy hairless bee is of concern to me, regardless of color, as the gloss/wax is a characteristic symptom of some nasty virulent virus affecting honeybees.  I would definitely place the hive pictured on my radar.  I am not saying your hive has a virus issue, let me be clear.  I am saying I see a characteristic symptom(s) of virus in the pic posted.

Best to your bees, Mr. 30WCF.
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Wired looking bees
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2021, 06:20:44 pm »
Mr Van it is great to see your post! Glad you are back with your good advise!
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline .30WCF

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Re: Wired looking bees
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2021, 09:39:10 pm »
Correct me if I misunderstood, but the action to take is to ride it out, maybe feed them a little supplementally and keep their box full of brood and bees?


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Offline .30WCF

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Wired looking bees
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2021, 10:15:33 pm »
Today I added a nuc with a newly returned queen into the hive in question.
I pulled five frames on the right side of the brood box, put in the 5 frame nuc and newly laying queen in the spot where I pulled the frames from. I put the frames I pulled from the big hive, bees and all into the nuc box. I took one clean frame of foundation from the nucs super and went to a different hive and pulled an egg frame and traded it for the foundation from the nuc.

I now have possible contamination in the nuc and the original (4 box) double deep, double supered hive.
The suspected CBPV hive got brood and eggs and a queen, and the nuc has the opportunity to raise a new queen from a health hives genetics.
Again, at this point there are not a lot of these bees to be found. I scooped up the ones I saw on my hive tool and all but one flew up and away when gently blown on. Not sure how scientific that test is. The one that wouldn?t attempt to fly got squished.


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« Last Edit: June 05, 2021, 10:17:28 am by .30WCF »

Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Wired looking bees
« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2021, 04:36:43 pm »
THE BAD:  Since varroa are know vectors, host, for many virus, my course of action would be to treat for varroa in the radar hive(s).  We do not know how to treat for virus within the hive but we do know how to treat the vector varroa carrying, spreading the virus.

THE GOOD:  On a positive note, that is something good to say, honey bees do have an immune system capable of dealing with most, but not all, virus.  From what I have read on this forum topic, this thread, the spread of this particular virus appears to be limited to a few honeybees indicating to me, limited transmission OR good virus suppression by the immune system of the honeybees in question.  But, keep a watchful eye on the hive or put on your radar as I like to say.

THE UGLY: When I studied virology, I decided I did not like virus, nor studies thereof and my dislike persists to this day.  Virus are just weird: not living creatures although the word creature is used as an oxymoron in this sentence.

Best to your bees.
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline .30WCF

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Re: Wired looking bees
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2021, 04:50:07 pm »
I took a peek today while pulling a few honey frames. I started in the side I put the nuc in yesterday and I was looking for the queen. Every available cell in the nucs frames had eggs but no queen. I looked on the next frame which had been empty, and it was wall to wall eggs. So was the next frame, and the queen was there. I marked her while I had her out.
I know it?s a couple weeks out, but it looks like reinforcements are on the way.


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Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Wired looking bees
« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2021, 06:32:21 pm »
Thank you Mr. 30WCF for the update,  Good news is always a Blessing to hear.
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline .30WCF

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Re: Wired looking bees
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2021, 11:59:33 pm »
If we remember back in this thread, I had some hives that went queenless with Formic Pro. It took a long time to get a queen back in there. ( they raised their own, 3x )
Maybe stress maybe mites maybe poor queens... but I had no queen and a few weird looking bees in one hive.
I ended up basically pulling five frames out and putting a five frame nuc I had on the side right in the box. The queen was still there and lying they next day when I checked on her.
It?s a week later and she is still there. She is marked, kinda small and skinny, but laying some. Not quite like I want to see, but she is there. I might give her the hive tool if she doesn?t straighten up and dump another nuc in there.
Anyhow, the frames I pulled out went into the nuc box to raise their own queen. I went back in the nuc a few days later to check for a queen cell starting. They had just capped all the brood like normal. I did another frame swap and gave them more eggs to try again. That was Monday morning. Today, I looked and I found eggs and larvae. Odd, that. I didn?t see the queen, but I was really just thinking I was looking for a queen cell. Maybe I?ll find her next week?
I assume I?ve been trying to raise a queen in a couple hives for long enough that there was a stray virgin that returned to that nuc. I guess there could have been a second queen in the nuc on the box wall when I pulled the frames. I am 100% certain the marked queen was on a frame when I moved her into the big hive and she is still there today.

Offline .30WCF

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Re: Wired looking bees
« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2021, 01:03:12 am »
I guess it could be possible I move the laying queen for the nuc to the large hive, and unknowingly moved a young queen to the nuc in the original swap and she just started laying this week.


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Offline TheHoneyPump

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Wired looking bees
« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2021, 08:42:12 am »
Sounds like a probable scenario. Only other possibility is the frames pulled and put into the nuc have gone laying worker and rhat is what you are seeing in there.
Otherwise, at this point it does not really matter. You have three queens laying now and need only decide which one(s) to keep and which one(s) to cull. 
When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Offline .30WCF

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Re: Wired looking bees
« Reply #26 on: June 13, 2021, 05:33:53 pm »
Sounds like a probable scenario. Only other possibility is the frames pulled and put into the nuc have gone laying worker and rhat is what you are seeing in there.
Otherwise, at this point it does not really matter. You have three queens laying now and need only decide which one(s) to keep and which one(s) to cull.
Although, it?s a possibility, the hive has not been left eggless or broodless. The eggs found were also neat backs cleanly placed in the center of the cells.
I am eager to see if I can find the queen in my next inspection. But even if I don?t find her, I?ll be looking for the new capped brood to be worker brood.

Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Wired looking bees
« Reply #27 on: June 13, 2021, 10:53:20 pm »
Often, during inspections, when I am not looking for the queen, there she is in plain view.  To the contrary when I need to find the queen,,, well you know.  This happens quite often, no joke.

Hope ya find her with ease 30 WCF.
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Wired looking bees
« Reply #28 on: June 13, 2021, 11:23:13 pm »
Same for me Mr Van. Frustrating. I now keep a marking pen with me and mark every one I can find, on the spot. lol :grin: Sure makes it much easier; (Sometimes)  :shocked: :cheesy:
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline .30WCF

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Re: Wired looking bees
« Reply #29 on: June 20, 2021, 05:08:33 pm »
Seems all the hives are queened and doing fine. There are a couple of these weird bees in a hive or two, but it doesn?t seem to be detrimental at the moment.

Offline .30WCF

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Re: Wired looking bees
« Reply #30 on: June 20, 2021, 09:55:15 pm »
Reference the unknown origin of the queen in the nuc, I found her and marked her today. She is building up the worker brood. Regardless of where the quickly returned queen came from, being able to dump a whole nuc right in a queenless hive for a boost and new queen is worth keeping a nuc on hand.
 

If we remember back in this thread, I had some hives that went queenless with Formic Pro. It took a long time to get a queen back in there. ( they raised their own, 3x )
Maybe stress maybe mites maybe poor queens... but I had no queen and a few weird looking bees in one hive.
I ended up basically pulling five frames out and putting a five frame nuc I had on the side right in the box. The queen was still there and lying they next day when I checked on her.
It?s a week later and she is still there. She is marked, kinda small and skinny, but laying some. Not quite like I want to see, but she is there. I might give her the hive tool if she doesn?t straighten up and dump another nuc in there.
Anyhow, the frames I pulled out went into the nuc box to raise their own queen. I went back in the nuc a few days later to check for a queen cell starting. They had just capped all the brood like normal. I did another frame swap and gave them more eggs to try again. That was Monday morning. Today, I looked and I found eggs and larvae. Odd, that. I didn?t see the queen, but I was really just thinking I was looking for a queen cell. Maybe I?ll find her next week?
I assume I?ve been trying to raise a queen in a couple hives for long enough that there was a stray virgin that returned to that nuc. I guess there could have been a second queen in the nuc on the box wall when I pulled the frames. I am 100% certain the marked queen was on a frame when I moved her into the big hive and she is still there today.

Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Wired looking bees
« Reply #31 on: June 21, 2021, 01:10:37 pm »
Nice looking queen.  I see no mite frass in the open cells, no pin holes in capped brood.  Pic looks good.  Best to your bees.
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline .30WCF

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Re: Wired looking bees
« Reply #32 on: June 21, 2021, 06:22:25 pm »
Nice looking queen.  I see no mite frass in the open cells, no pin holes in capped brood.  Pic looks good.  Best to your bees.
That I found her on a frame in the upper nuc box. There is a lot of action downstairs, she just happend to be outside frame in the top box. She is laying good.


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