Author Topic: Where is vertical bee space - over or under frames (Read 2092 times)

Dora · « **on:** January 23, 2024, 02:58:03 pm »

This is probably a dumb question, but I couldn't find a definitive answer to where the bee space is normally located in commercially produced hives. Is it above the frames or below them?

(We have only home-made boxes patterned after those my dad made. I want to switch to 8-frame-mediums and would like the new equipment standardized.)

Ben Framed · « **Reply #1 on:** January 23, 2024, 03:33:41 pm »

Not dumb at all. I will quote from Wikipedia / Langstroth hive which should help in your understanding as well as a little history as well.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langstroth_hive

The15thMember · « **Reply #2 on:** January 23, 2024, 03:39:31 pm »

Both, I believe, since if you set a box on the floor the frames neither touch the ground nor are flush with the top of the box. My assumption is that the space below and above the frames equals 1 bee space. You should be able to find plans online somewhere that specify all the measurements.

Bill Murray · « **Reply #3 on:** January 23, 2024, 07:39:25 pm »

No this isnt a dumb question. I purchased some cheap boxes a few years back and the bee-space was cut for the bottom. I was having awful hive beetle problems. the issue was no bee space at the top. an imirie shim fixed that but it took me a while to figure it out.

So as was stated before it can be cut top or bottom. My new outlook on this is let the buyer beware. you can buy them either way and when you start mixing and matching them in your apiary it will become an issue.

So best advice buy from one supplier.
Also if you are close at the top of it not being cut correct the propolis under the frames quickly causes an issue. You should have 5/8 cut for your frame rest

yes2matt · « **Reply #4 on:** January 23, 2024, 09:03:10 pm »

My personal preference is to have it cut with single bee space top and bottom. That way if I set the box down on a flat surface I don't mush bees, also when I put a flat cover on. I think ML makes them this way.

My BeeMax poly boxes are cut so the frames touch the floor when I put the box down. This makes me and the bees unhappy.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

Bill Murray · « **Reply #5 on:** January 23, 2024, 09:43:05 pm »

so if your bee-space is cut on the bottom Im assuming you use oil trays for beetles?

Dora · « **Reply #6 on:** January 23, 2024, 10:05:47 pm »

Thank you all!
So it seems there is no real consensus.

And manufacturers do not tell us where they put the bee space.

The hives I currently possess have a full bee space (more than absolutely necessary) on top and maybe 3/32" on the bottom. I did get burr comb with those.

We want to build 8-frame mediums to use for everything. I was wondering if there were an industry standard, so we could construct them to match, in case some time in the future I might want to buy some .

Bill Murray · « **Reply #7 on:** January 23, 2024, 10:11:45 pm »

Dora, I make ALMOST all my own boxes now. If you buy woodenware from any of the big sellers, mostly bee space is cut to the top. All that being said, Just ask who your buying off of.

cao · « **Reply #8 on:** January 24, 2024, 02:21:57 am »

Unfortunately there is no real "standard" for 8 frame equipment. There is a difference in width of boxes depending on who makes it. I build all my 8 frame boxes. Mine are 1/2 to 3/4 inch narrower than boxes that you can buy. The bee space above and below frames depends a lot on the frames themselves. Before Kelley was bought out by mann lake, there was about 1/8" difference in where the frame set in the box. So mixing of frames can produce some tight areas and some wide areas.

Michael Bush · « **Reply #9 on:** January 24, 2024, 09:18:13 am »

A proper standard box had 1/4" space at the top and 1/8" space at the bottom.

Dora · « **Reply #10 on:** January 24, 2024, 05:31:39 pm »

Thank you all for responding. 😊

Michael Bush, I appreciate this:

Quote from: Michael Bush on January 24, 2024, 09:18:13 am

A proper standard box had 1/4" space at the top and 1/8" space at the bottom.

It makes total sense to me, providing an almost "perfect" bee space!

I just measured one of my boxes, and the total bee space is a tad much. I don't think we have a way of accurately taking the excess off the top of the boxes, so I think we'll put up with burr comb.
But the new boxes will have 1/4" space at the top and 1/8" space at the bottom!

Michael Bush · « **Reply #11 on:** January 25, 2024, 06:20:12 am »

The burr is actually helpful to the bees as it provides more of a large area for the queen. She easily moves from box to box if there is burr. She hesitates if there's an actual gap.

Terri Yaki · « **Reply #12 on:** January 25, 2024, 09:09:22 am »

Is 'both' not an option?

animal · « **Reply #13 on:** January 25, 2024, 09:49:57 am »

Quote from: Michael Bush on January 25, 2024, 06:20:12 am

The burr is actually helpful to the bees as it provides more of a large area for the queen. She easily moves from box to box if there is burr. She hesitates if there's an actual gap.

I'm a little confused here. I was under the impression that you wanted to discourage the queen from moving to other boxes .. and laying eggs in the honey supers, for instance.
I've only been dealing with one hive that is very small for 8 months (It was a cut-out followed by 2 pesticide kills, first one severe), and I still have little knowledge about bee behavior. I'm wondering if you mean the burr comb is helpful in a larger hive with more than one brood box, so she can get to them; or if the queen should be able to easily get to the honey supers as well.

If it's best for her to get to all brood easily but not the honey supers, would it make sense to have different bee space between the super and brood box (and between supers) than between 2 brood boxes ?

It seems like this could be easily accomplished by having different thicknesses of the top bar of the frames (possibly a removable thin piece fitted to the top of the frames on the supers and top brood box .... for "normal" bee space and a little wider bee space between the bottom and upper brood box to encourage burr comb).... Sorry if this is a stupid question.

AustinB · « **Reply #14 on:** January 25, 2024, 10:24:12 am »

Quote

I'm a little confused here. I was under the impression that you wanted to discourage the queen from moving to other boxes .. and laying eggs in the honey supers, for instance.
I've only been dealing with one hive that is very small for 8 months (It was a cut-out followed by 2 pesticide kills, first one severe), and I still have little knowledge about bee behavior. I'm wondering if you mean the burr comb is helpful in a larger hive with more than one brood box, so she can get to them; or if the queen should be able to easily get to the honey supers as well.

If it's best for her to get to all brood easily but not the honey supers, would it make sense to have different bee space between the super and brood box (and between supers) than between 2 brood boxes ?

It seems like this could be easily accomplished by having different thicknesses of the top bar of the frames (possibly a removable thin piece fitted to the top of the frames on the supers and top brood box .... for "normal" bee space and a little wider bee space between the bottom and upper brood box to encourage burr comb).... Sorry if this is a stupid question.

There are varying degrees of opinions on using a queen excluder, and adherence to strict management practices. But generally speaking you want to encourage, not discourage, the queen from going up and down between boxes. There would be an exception to this if you run singles and want to make honey, but that almost always requires a queen excluder. If you run any combination of double brood boxes ie all mediums, deep and a medium, double deep etc you certainly want the queen to move up and down. The burr that Michael is talking about is put there by the bees to help all of them travel box to box quicker and with less effort. He's also right about the queen, often she won't find a way across that gap, she just goes left or right and back down. Personally I don't remove the burr comb from between the supers when I'm going through a colony for just that purpose. But you have to be careful not to smoosh a bunch of bees when you reassemble the hive.

AustinB · « **Reply #15 on:** January 25, 2024, 10:32:03 am »

Another factor on vertical bee space is what particular frame you are running. Though this usually isn't an issue unless you are using something like Kelley thin topbar frames for cut comb. The entire frame sit lower in the same super than the wedge top bars, thereby creating excess beespace at the top, and decreased beespace between the bottom of the bars and the top of the bars in the box below. I put a small strip of wood on my cut comb supers at the ledge and hold it in with a couple cleat nails to keep everything even. Some colonies don't mind the wonky space much, but others will totally booger those areas and draw comb or propalize the frames together, and it can really be a pain.

animal · « **Reply #16 on:** January 25, 2024, 10:56:20 am »

lol. my frames are neither. Homemade by apparently ancient plans. The top bar is the same width as the top of the end pieces .. on the ends for about 2-1/2 inches and cut away in the middle on both sides to otherwise resemble the Kelley ones. They hang correctly as far as I can tell, and haven't given any problems. (I won't be going to the trouble of making those cuts again, on future frames, though)

I also morticed in some steel angle strips on the rabbet holding up the frames because I was concerned about gouging the wood if I got too happy with a prybar, found out that's a little overkill, but future boxes will still have it.

Thanks !

The15thMember · « **Reply #17 on:** January 25, 2024, 11:25:49 am »

Quote from: animal on January 25, 2024, 09:49:57 am

If it's best for her to get to all brood easily but not the honey supers, would it make sense to have different bee space between the super and brood box (and between supers) than between 2 brood boxes ?

It seems like this could be easily accomplished by having different thicknesses of the top bar of the frames (possibly a removable thin piece fitted to the top of the frames on the supers and top brood box .... for "normal" bee space and a little wider bee space between the bottom and upper brood box to encourage burr comb).... Sorry if this is a stupid question.

I would just like to add that queens generally won't cross a "band" of honey. So as far as keeping queens out of honey supers, what I do is I have one super on the hive at all times. With 8-frame mediums, I need to leave honey for them to eat anyway, so as long as I only harvest honey from above "their" honey box, I never have brood in my honey.

Michael Bush · « **Reply #18 on:** January 26, 2024, 06:47:38 am »

>I'm a little confused here. I was under the impression that you wanted to discourage the queen from moving to other boxes .. and laying eggs in the honey supers, for instance.

The bees want a consolidated brood nest so they don't spread things out too much. I run all eight frame mediums. Usually the queen is laying in three or four boxes and I want her to. A large expanse of comb to lay in is a good thing. Besides, she can't lay in a super because if she lays in it, it becomes a brood box.

Ben Framed · « **Reply #19 on:** January 26, 2024, 07:48:50 am »

I run 10 frame deeps brood boxes. I also run 10 frame matching supers for convenience. The bottom two boxes are provided for the queen as brood boxes. As Reagan said, "I would just like to add that queens generally won't cross a "band" of honey."
I have found this to be accurate in my experiences. If the frames in first super box up from the brood chambers are full of honey, this provides that honey barrier. In that case the queen will not go past this third box and further up to the upper fourth box to lay, (she will not go past the 3rd box band of honey). Acting as a natural queen excluder if you will.

Now on the other hand during a 'heavy flow'; Even if just 'one' of the frames in the first honey super '3rd box' is not filled, even though the other 9 frames may be completely filled with honey, the queen will occasionally move up into that 3rd box (super box) and begin laying in that frame, (bur comb or not); Even when she has room in the bottom two brood boxes provided. And even if maintenance has been done rotating the brood chambers.
I am presuming this is why Austin brought up Queen excluders.. I used 9-1 as an example there could be more if the space is there.. And remember the bees also like to store pollen close to brood...

Phillip