Post by: The15thMember on October 12, 2018, 02:43:05 pm
This week I went into this hive and I noticed that the population was much lower than last week. I had noticed this week that the traffic coming in and out of this hive was lessened, but fall temperatures also finally hit us, so I thought it was just as a result of that change. There were very few bees in the top box, which is typical, since not all the frames up there are drawn. In the middle box there were only bees on 1/2 of the top bars, the left side of the box had no bees to speak of, and the powdered sugar from last week's dust was not cleaned up on the frames without bees. On the frames that had bees there were eggs and larva in all stages, all white and healthy looking, although there were some pupae being pulled out by the workers on almost every frame. The laying pattern looked pretty good, most cells were laid, although the ages of the larva were intermixed in some areas. All the workers also seemed normal, no shriveled wings or anything like that, although some of them seem to have no hair, but my other hive has a lot of bees like that too, so I'm just assuming it's because they are fall bees and are living longer. Then, once again, I found 2 queens in the box, one on one frame and one on the next, so I must have just missed one queen last week. The bottom box had literally 0 bees, with the exception of foragers who were coming and going at the entrance. The box also had leftover sugar from last week's dust, and some pretty substantial evidence of wax moth caterpillars tunneling through the unattended comb. So, what I did was removed the bottom box, took out 6 frames that had waxworm damage, put the remaining 2 nice-looking frames of pollen in the honey super. So the hive is now down to 2 boxes, and has been rearranged so the brood is in the bottom and the honey on the top.
So the question is, what is going on in here? Last week this hive had almost 2 full boxes of bees, and this week there are like 4 frames of bees. Why did the population decrease so rapidly? Why didn't the bees clean up the sugar from last week? Why does the hive have 2 mated queens and isn't doing anything about it? Any ideas?
Post by: Van, Arkansas, USA on October 12, 2018, 04:44:06 pm
I would guess abscond and the few remaking bees are robbers. This is why they don?t clean the sugar. However you mentioned queens, more than one: supersedure or swarm is reason for more than one queen.
Is any queen present this day?
Post by: The15thMember on October 12, 2018, 04:51:24 pm
Post by: Van, Arkansas, USA on October 12, 2018, 05:10:45 pm
Sugar dusting is stressful to the honeybees. Remember honeybees are 99 percent female and a person can realize this as soon as one opens a hive. Everything is spick and span clean, there is no dust, no dirt, no mold, no mildew; the little dainty females are very tidy and when a beekeeper throws a handful of sugar dust,,,,, well this is stressful to the female bees. Fact is honey bees are one of the cleanest critters on the planet.
How stressful is sugar dusting is anybody?s guess, maybe a little, maybe a lot. I have seen dusted bees that prior to dusting, were what I considered gentle, however, after dusting turn into stinging mad maniacs.
Blessings
Post by: ed/La. on October 12, 2018, 05:14:08 pm
Post by: AR Beekeeper on October 12, 2018, 05:15:56 pm
There may have been two daughters and one left with a swarm, this could be the reason for the reduction in adult bees. The lack of adult bees would account for the lack of house cleaning in the bottom box.
Post by: Van, Arkansas, USA on October 12, 2018, 05:18:05 pm
AR, good, very good presentation at the meeting, off subject so I must stop.
Post by: The15thMember on October 12, 2018, 07:45:55 pm
How stressful is sugar dusting is anybody?s guess, maybe a little, maybe a lot. I have seen dusted bees that prior to dusting, were what I considered gentle, however, after dusting turn into stinging mad maniacs.I did wonder if the sugar dusting got on their nerves too much and was a contributing factor. I have never had the dusting make them aggressive though. Confused yes, but never aggressive. I don't have anything to go on really as a first year, but my bees seem remarkably calm. They never fly out at me when I open up the hive, and they hardly even fly when I'm working the boxes. Maybe I just took advantage of them took much with the sugar dusting. I'll have to keep this possibility in mind in the future.
Blessings
In the "traditional supersedure" the mother queen and a daughter will both be in the colony, usually on the same frame or an adjacent one. They will both be laying eggs and this situation may continue for several weeks. The longest time I have had mother and daughter queens laying together was 5 weeks.I guess this is one of those times where having a marked queen comes in handy, because I have really no way of knowing if the one queen is the original. I know that the one queen is not the original by sight, as she is visually darker than the original queen, but as to the other one, it's hard to say whether she's the original or another daughter.
There may have been two daughters and one left with a swarm, this could be the reason for the reduction in adult bees. The lack of adult bees would account for the lack of house cleaning in the bottom box.
I will guess hive swarmed and the new queens are of poor quality because of the lack of enough drones or the weather prevented timely mating flight. I have read that queens interbreeding with her drones leads to higher brood mortality. That could explain brood of different age development interspersed.
This is an interesting idea. I'll have to keep tabs on the brood and see if the population seems to improve over the next few weeks.
I would consider condensing hive and quick freezing any unused/questionable frames. \Thanks for mentioning that, I forgot to ask about it. As the majority of their pollen stores were found by the wax moth caterpillars, I'm concerned about their amount of pollen going into the winter. If I freeze those frames that had evidence of the caterpillars and kill anything living on them, can I put those frames back in the hives so the bees can have their pollen back? Or will the freezing ruin the pollen?
Post by: TheHoneyPump on October 12, 2018, 08:14:46 pm
Post by: The15thMember on October 12, 2018, 09:05:43 pm
Of the larvae brood of all stages you mention .... is any of it capped brood? Is it nice looking capped brood?There is capped brood. It looks fine to my eye but the workers are removing some of the pupae. This has been happening occasionally in this hive, so it?s not a huge red flag, but I would say it?s slightly more than normal. About 4-5 pupae per frame are being uncapped and removed.
Post by: TheHoneyPump on October 12, 2018, 09:40:09 pm
1 - European foul brood. Queen(s) lay fine and well. Larvae looks good to the untrained eye. Not many will make it to full term. Hygenic bees will pull them before you really see the signs in apparent. You will see fair amount of brood, larvae, eggs of various ages intermingled together, yet a comparatively low amount of capped and a dwindling population. Once tipping point is reached the Population crashes. The Bees know there is a problem because their larvae are dying. They try supercedure. Underlying problem remains.
2 - Poorly mated queen(s). Similar symptoms. Lay well. Eggs/larvae not viable. Bees pull them. Population crashes. The bees try supercedure. Too late in the season to get a good queen. Whole hive crashes completely.
3 - Parasitic mite syndrome, PMS, much the same symptoms. The Bees eventually abscond. When they cannot tolerate or overcome a problem, if it does not kill them, the simply leave. Only bees left are the youngest ones who cannot fly yet, the sickly, and bees that have no sense of what is going on. NB Be very wary of catching late fall swarms. You may be just hiving an infested colony that had absconded from some place else.
4 - Sugar dust that gets into the cells does kill larvae. Perhaps too much dusting too vigorously or too frequently is what is killing the brood and causing them to pull it.
5 - Old summer bees burnt out that die off en mass results in a sharp and significant population drop if they are all same age cycle with a noticeable brood gap between cycles 6 weeks ago.
6 - What looked like supercedure may have been multicast swarming. The depletion is very significant in that case. Although it is much too late in season for swarming, depending in where you are.
.... few ideas to think about.
I would be most focused on determining between 1 or 2 or 3 as their symptoms are very similar. The fact that you have been dusting for mite control leads more pointedly to 3 PMS.
Regardless of which it is at this late point in the season the next move is to decide if there is any time left in the season to do anything about it or best to just terminate the hive now. Cut the losses, clean up the equipment, and make ready for restocking it in the spring.
If were to keep it going, try to figure which of the two queens is the mother. Keep her, kill the other, because late season queens really suck, very poor. Then proceed to treat the hive accordingly for the underlying problem of EFB or PMS.
By the way, this is classically how mites kill hives (PMS). It is rarely those weak smaller hives. It is the big buster booming hives that have been great all season. Then in the fall when the bee population is on decline, the mite per bee population soars and overcomes the colony. That big hive crashes, there is no come back from it.
PS: At 4 frames of bees left, reduce them to one box or better yet move them into just a nuc. Easier to monitor what is going on as well as the smaller space makes any treatments much more confined and effective. nb kill the late queen first though. Keep the old one, she's the good one. Freeze all of the frames and boxes to kill any mites and worms and whatever else.
PS2: if you confirm 1 or 3, Better to just freeze the entire hive, bees and all, kill them all and everything in there right now. If the freezer is small, bag groups of frames and bees together and cycle them through the freezer. Then clean everything up and have ready for restocking in the spring.
Post by: ed/La. on October 12, 2018, 11:22:38 pm
Post by: The15thMember on October 13, 2018, 01:09:50 am
A few possibilities come to mind for you to consider:I can't say for sure, because I wasn't thinking about a ratio of capped to open, but it really didn't strike me as there being little capped brood. If I had to say it was probably 50-50, capped to open.
1 - European foul brood. Queen(s) lay fine and well. Larvae looks good. Not many make it to full term. Hygenic bees pull them before you really see the signs in apparent. You will see fair amount of brood, larvae, eggs of various ages together, but a comparatively low amount of capped. Population crashes. The Bees know there is a problem because their larvae are dying. They try supercedure. Underlying problem remains.
2 - Poorly mated queen(s). Similar symptoms. Lay well. Eggs/larvae not viable. Bees pull them. Population crashes. The bees try supercedure. Too late in the season to get a good queen. Whole hive crashes completely.Would I be seeing drones in the case of a poorly mated queen? Because there is no drone brood anywhere in the hive.
3 - Parasitic mite syndrome, PMS, much the same symptoms. The Bees eventually abscond. Only bees left are the youngest ones who cannot fly yet and probably do not know what is going on.Again, not 100% sure because I wasn't looking for it, but I don't recall seeing all young bees. I mentioned that I've been seeing quite a few old hairless workers around lately, and I didn't notice a conspicuous lack of them today. I'm not understanding why the fact that I've been dusting leads more to PMS. My mite load has been decreasing since August based on the mite drops I've been getting, so hasn't my mite/bee ratio been going down?
I would be most focused on determining between 1 or 2 or 3 as their symptoms are very similar. The fact that you have been dusting for mite control leads more pointedly to 3 PMS.
By the way, this is classically how mites kill hives (PMS). It is rarely those weak smaller hives. It is the big buster booming hives that have been great all season. Then in the fall when the bee population is on decline, the mite per bee population soars and overcomes the colony. That big hive crashes, there is no come back from it.
4 - Sugar dust that gets into the cells does kill larvae. Perhaps too much dusting too vigorously or too frequently is what is killing the brood and causing them to pull it.Hm, I never heard of that being a problem when I was researching this originally. Not saying you're wrong or anything, just saying I never heard of that. Unfortunately I didn't inspect for those 3 weeks before I noticed the queen situation, so I'm not sure if the brood nest has been gradually shrinking, or if it happened suddenly. (By the way, yes, I will never go 3 weeks without an inspection ever again. At least not until I have lots of hives.)
5 - Old summer bees burnt out that die off en mass results in a sharp and significant population drop if they are all same age cycle with a noticeable brood gap between cycles 6 weeks ago.
I had thought of this one myself. My concern is that there isn't much brood. I feel like if it was just an issue with the brood cycle, that the brood would be increasing. I had my other hive go suddenly queenless early this summer, and once the replacement started laying, the brood nest increased every week. But these 4 frames of brood have been about all I've had for the past couple weeks, in spite of the fact that the adult population was larger before today.
Freeze all of the frames and boxes to kill any mites and worms and whatever else. Better yet, just freeze the entire hive, bees and all. Kill them and everything in there now. Then clean it up and have ready for the spring.
Freezing the frames works. It is only takes a few hours at 0 but longer at lower temperature. I leave them in overnight or until I need them. I rotate questionable frames to the freezer regularly in wax moth season.
Good to know about the freezing. I wish I had more freezer space, but I'm still living with my parents, and until I get my own place (which is coming in the near future) or they get another freezer, the only freezer space I have is a small amount of my mom's chest freezer. So no freezing whole hives for me, or even leaving frames in the freezer on a permanent basis unfortunately. But I can certainly freeze some of their good pollen frames and give them back.
Post by: TheHoneyPump on October 13, 2018, 02:15:43 am
wrt the amount of brood. This is now late season. By natural cycle, the egg laying is reduced. In some locales, such as mine, laying has ceased altogether. Seeing less eggs and brood now than you saw a month ago is natural and of no concern at all, really. What needs to be determined is if the brood that is there is viable and is reaching full term maturity of emerging new young bees, and that those bees are stout and healthy "winter" bees. If there is brood but they are removing it faster than it is maturing, there is an underlying problem ( 1 or 2 or 3 ....) to be solved.
PS: Mite drops are not a great indicator of mite load. The drop can help with showing an up or a down trend. However if you want to really know what the mite levels are to accurately assess a hive then you have to do an alcohol wash. You may be shocked (or comforted) by the results of the wash.
Post by: blackforest beekeeper on October 13, 2018, 05:01:52 am
I figure, this colony is lost due to mites. If there thte mite wash shows high mite load, kill the hive.
Post by: TheHoneyPump on October 14, 2018, 02:01:42 pm
https://honeybeesuite.com/did-they-abscond-or-die-from-varroa/
Post by: Van, Arkansas, USA on October 14, 2018, 02:42:20 pm
Blessings
Post by: The15thMember on October 14, 2018, 05:06:21 pm
An interesting article I came across this morning while sipping coffee. Relevant to this discussion. Have a look.
https://honeybeesuite.com/did-they-abscond-or-die-from-varroa/
Fantastic article! I'm surprised I've never seen it before. I love HoneyBeeSuite and have read a good portion of Rusty Burlew's articles on her website. Just must have missed that one somehow. :embarassed: Does anyone know why the guanine deposits are there in the cells when varroa is present?
Post by: TheHoneyPump on October 14, 2018, 05:25:07 pm
Post by: The15thMember on October 14, 2018, 05:47:21 pm
Guanine deposits = mite poop.Haha. I literally just found the answer myself and was going to post that I'd figured it out when you responded. :cheesy:
Thanks for all the help you've given me, HoneyPump. It's hugely helpful. I think what I'm going to do is do another inspection some time this week. I'll do a really good check of the brood for evidence of both varroa and EFB and see what I can find, and I'll get the hive down to 1 box. I'll also do a sugar roll to check the mites. (I know the alcohol wash is considered to be more accurate, but I just don't feel good about it. The difference in accuracy isn't enough for me to kill that many bees.) I'll keep you all posted on what happens.
Post by: Van, Arkansas, USA on October 14, 2018, 06:23:24 pm
You, Member Lady, are very thoughtful of your bees: Kindness is a good trait.
Blessings
Post by: blackforest beekeeper on October 14, 2018, 06:53:26 pm
An interesting article I came across this morning while sipping coffee. Relevant to this discussion. Have a look.
https://honeybeesuite.com/did-they-abscond-or-die-from-varroa/
Yeah, that about sums it up.
I had a guy here this late winter talked about a "pesticide kill" of an entire apiary of a friend (he himself had some bees). He described what had happened in - I guess September/October - and this guy must have told him: it was pesticide from rape seed (winter canola) which is sprayed in spring..(this canola blooms April/Mid May). So I told him that the bees that had collected the canola were long dead and that it was unlikely that the leftover pollen had killed the hives in fall. But that the symptoms described a varroa-damage-exitus (as described in the article of Rusty) very well. he was quite taken aback, was my impression.
Post by: The15thMember on October 14, 2018, 08:43:59 pm
Member, I am always impressed when beeks make an answer such as yourself I DONT WANT TO KILL BEES referring to sugar count verses alcohol. I am further impressed when a beek carefully places on a lid or hive body and is very conscious of squashing bees, which I would wager is also a concern of yours.Thank you so much for your kind words, Van. I was honestly prepared to be criticized for my way of thinking, and I was very thankful to hear your support. And yes, you are right, I'm always careful when putting my hives back together, and making sure there are no bees stuck in the top of the hive when I'm feeding syrup. :happy:
You, Member Lady, are very thoughtful of your bees: Kindness is a good trait.
Blessings
Post by: Van, Arkansas, USA on October 14, 2018, 10:20:08 pm
Canola oil appeared on the grocery shelves out of the blue, bang, all the sudden there is this beautiful NEW cooking oil on the shelves. Canada swears they did not alter the DNA of rape seed in a laboratory. Canada swears the mutation was natural, that they took cuttings from various natural rape plants and walla, presto, bingo: a digestible oil, all natural. Thus the statement: Canola oil is not a genetically modified organism or GMO it is sworn to be natural.
Ok, There are Canadian beeks on this board, that post some very good info, very thoughtful detailed info and links. Just today I complimented a Canadian fella on a link the beek posted. IN NO WAY AM I DISCREDITING FOLKS ON THIS FORUM THAT ARE FROM CANADA. These beeks on Beemaster had nothing to do with advent or marketing of canola. So please do not take offense, just stating some facts about canolas orgin.
Blessings
Post by: The15thMember on October 15, 2018, 12:52:11 am
BlackForest, Canola has an interesting history. Natural Rape seed oil is bitter, indigestible and used as a lubricant on steel gears. Canada modified the DNA and produced what we now call canola oil in the 1980{s} circa. The name rape oil was not pleasing so the name was changed to CAN OL A from CANadian OiL Assoc. c a n o l a. The name was more pleasing than rape oil.
Canola oil appeared on the grocery shelves out of the blue, bang, all the sudden there is this beautiful NEW cooking oil on the shelves. Canada swears they did not alter the DNA of rape seed in a laboratory. Canada swears the mutation was natural, that they took cuttings from various natural rape plants and walla, presto, bingo: a digestible oil, all natural. Thus the statement: Canola oil is not a genetically modified organism or GMO it is sworn to be natural.
Ok, There are Canadian beeks on this board, that post some very good info, very thoughtful detailed info and links. Just today I complimented a Canadian fella on a link the beek posted. IN NO WAY AM I DISCREDITING FOLKS ON THIS FORUM THAT ARE FROM CANADA. These beeks on Beemaster had nothing to do with advent or marketing of canola. So please do not take offense, just stating some facts about canolas orgin.
Blessings
This is absolutely fascinating! :grin: :cool:
Post by: blackforest beekeeper on October 15, 2018, 02:30:59 am
BlackForest, Canola has an interesting history. Natural Rape seed oil is bitter, indigestible and used as a lubricant on steel gears. Canada modified the DNA and produced what we now call canola oil in the 1980{s} circa. The name rape oil was not pleasing so the name was changed to CAN OL A from CANadian OiL Assoc. c a n o l a. The name was more pleasing than rape oil.
Canola oil appeared on the grocery shelves out of the blue, bang, all the sudden there is this beautiful NEW cooking oil on the shelves. Canada swears they did not alter the DNA of rape seed in a laboratory. Canada swears the mutation was natural, that they took cuttings from various natural rape plants and walla, presto, bingo: a digestible oil, all natural. Thus the statement: Canola oil is not a genetically modified organism or GMO it is sworn to be natural.
Ok, There are Canadian beeks on this board, that post some very good info, very thoughtful detailed info and links. Just today I complimented a Canadian fella on a link the beek posted. IN NO WAY AM I DISCREDITING FOLKS ON THIS FORUM THAT ARE FROM CANADA. These beeks on Beemaster had nothing to do with advent or marketing of canola. So please do not take offense, just stating some facts about canolas orgin.
Blessings
Hi Van,
I just did some low-value research in the net. I didn`t know that and never thought of that, as I had read in quite a few old beekeeping-literatres about rape-seed as being a very valuable source of flow.
"Canola" I read the first time in this forum. In German it is "Raps" and has no bad connotations whatsoever. The word "Canola" - according to the soucre I tapped - is only used in the northern Americas.
For making honey it doesn`t seem to matter.
New sorts are emerging all the time without GMO. Not just Raps.
As not being a farmer, I understand, there is "winter-canola" and "summer-canola". The winter-canola is the type grown in G. It is sown sometime August or thereabouts and spends the winter as a little plant. Bloom is in spring.
Maybe in northern Canada it is more a summer-canola, which is sown in spring and blooms probably in summer?
Post by: blackforest beekeeper on October 15, 2018, 02:33:28 am
As for bee-health, I would go for a proven working way of treating, there are many for the likes of anybody.
When the bees are healthy enouhg for winter, dance!
:cool:
Post by: TheHoneyPump on October 15, 2018, 04:12:45 am
If there is any interest in the industry in general in Canada, and canola and bees, you are welcome to peruse the publicly available resources at the Canadian Honey Council and the Canola Council of Canada.
http://honeycouncil.ca/honey-industry/statistic/
https://www.canolacouncil.org/crop-production/canola-loves-bees-bees-love-canola/
OK .....Back on track with the thread,
Anxiously awaiting to see/hear back from 15thmember on the results of the next hive inspection. A few pictures of combs included perhaps, may help us help with the assessment of what's going on in that hive.
Post by: The15thMember on October 15, 2018, 08:31:08 am
OK .....Back on track with the thread,
Anxiously awaiting to see/hear back from 15thmember on the results of the next hive inspection. A few pictures of combs included perhaps, may help us help with the assessment of what's going on in that hive.
Oh, thanks for thinking of that. I will definitely get some pictures for you guys.
Post by: Van, Arkansas, USA on October 15, 2018, 02:06:49 pm
Blessings
Post by: The15thMember on October 15, 2018, 02:27:43 pm
Post by: paus on October 15, 2018, 02:34:13 pm
Post by: Van, Arkansas, USA on October 15, 2018, 05:02:35 pm
Your hive appears in good shape according to your description. Member: Maybe you should be answering, providing advice, guiding us, instead of asking us questions. I wish all my hives were as you described, except I use 10 frame.
Blessings
Post by: The15thMember on October 15, 2018, 05:12:24 pm
Post by: TheHoneyPump on October 15, 2018, 05:34:18 pm
Hey, I want to ask you guys something about condensing the hive that's confusing me a little bit. FYI, I'm in all 8 frame mediums. So I've got essentially one box worth of bees, and the phrase I usually hear is that for winter you should have the hive been the same size as the bees can fill, so they can keep warm more efficiently. My question is, this hive has more stores than bees, they have 4 frames of brood, about 5 frames of pollen, and almost a full honey super. How do I condense them without taking their stores from them?
Recommendation: This may be too descriptive, my nature so there it is. :rolleyes:
Your goal is to basically completely tear the hive apart and push the reset button placing the colony into one box as follows:
1. Find the queen, the old good one that you are keeping, cage her, and put her in your pocket for safety while you do everything else.
2. Kill the other queen uncerimoniously and toss her in the grass.
3. Take the hive apart, setting boxes aside. Select a box that is empty of bees and take all of the frames out of it. Scrape it clean of bur comb and propolis.
4. Clean off the bottom board thoroughly.
5. Put that emptied box onto the bottom board. Reduce the entrance to between 4 to 5 bees wide at the most.
Hereon: Frame positions left to right starting at left edge: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8. As you are selecting and placing frames in next steps, get your hive tool out and scrap all the bars of the frames of bur comb and such. Really clean things up. As you are selecting frames for next steps, pretty much disregard the brood. You have no choice but to be sacrificing some, and btw you do not want it anyway as it is likely infested. Do not keep any scrapings, toss all in the trash.
6. Select the 5 heaviest fullest honey frames from all of the boxes. Place those into the new cleaned empty box on the bottom board in positions 1 2 3 7 8.
7. Select the 2 frames that have the most pollen and also as much honey on them as possible. These are the next fullest frames you can find. These may also have small patch of brood on them but you are first and foremost want them full of resources. Have complete disregard for any brood in this step. Do not be tempted to select a brood frame over the pollen/honey frames. Place those two frames in position 5 and 6
8. Take the ONE frame that has the most HEALTHY brood on it. This may not be the frame that has the most brood, you are looking for the one that is the most healthy and well organized. It may be the frame that has the smallest brood patch on it. It may be mostly empty with only eggs or it may also have some pollen/honey stores on it. This is your -new nest- frame. Place that frame in position 4.
9. Now shake all the bees and scramblers into the centre of the fine new home you just built for them. Target the top bar of the brood frame in position 4. Shake all bees in from the rest of the frames of all the other boxes into the new hive body. Once they've settled down a bit, make a note of how many frames of bees there are in the box, colony size. You will use this as a gauge later as to if things getting better or getting worse.
10. Place an ApiVar strip between frames 3 and 4. Place another one between frames 5 and 6.
11. Take the queen in cage out of your pocket. Isn't she pretty, having been safely kept warm and cozy away from all the ruckus you just made. Quietly release her into the gap between top bars of frames 4 and 5. Watch her sniff around a bit then she walks down, big wide waddling, all-in safe and sound.
12. Put the lid on, clean up the area, haul away the equipment. Walk away.
13. Bag and freeze overnight all the frames that were removed. If freezer is small, just do a few frames at a time, no biggie. As you take them out, scrape the bars clean. Scrape clean the boxes. Do not keep any of the scrapings. Toss in the trash. Put the equipment into storage ready for spring.
14. Go drink some hot chocolate or binge on a bag of chips.
15. Do not open the hive again for at least 1 week. After 1 week check in for bee health and active queen and not queen cells. Are they all still in there? Are they looking good, bunch of happy, buzzy, fuzzy bees? Or, are they totally done for now.
16. You have accomplished a healthy hive that is treated and has enough resources to make the winter. Wrap them up, or whatever your wintering configuration is. Done. Go eat some more chips.
17. Remove the ApiVar strips at 6+ weeks.
Post by: paus on October 15, 2018, 05:34:24 pm
Post by: The15thMember on October 15, 2018, 06:24:46 pm
Recommendation: This may be too descriptive, my nature so there it is. :rolleyes:
Your goal is to basically completely tear the hive apart and push the reset button placing the colony into one box as follows:
1. Find the queen, the old good one that you are keeping, cage her, and put her in your pocket for safety while you do everything else.
2. Kill the other queen uncerimoniously and toss her in the grass.
3. Take the hive apart, setting boxes aside. Select a box that is empty of bees and take all of the frames out of it. Scrape it clean of bur comb and propolis.
4. Clean off the bottom board thoroughly.
5. Put that emptied box onto the bottom board. Reduce the entrance to between 4 to 5 bees wide at the most.
Hereon: Frame positions left to right starting at left edge: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8. As you are selecting and placing frames in next steps, get your hive tool out and scrap all the bars of the frames of bur comb and such. Really clean things up. As you are selecting frames for next steps, pretty much disregard the brood. You have no choice but to be sacrificing some, and btw you do not want it anyway as it is likely infested. Do not keep any scrapings, toss all in the trash.
6. Select the 5 heaviest fullest honey frames from all of the boxes. Place those into the new cleaned empty box on the bottom board in positions 1 2 3 7 8.
7. Select the 2 frames that have the most pollen and also as much honey on them as possible. These are the next fullest frames you can find. These may also have small patch of brood on them but you are first and foremost want them full of resources. Have complete disregard for any brood in this step. Do not be tempted to select a brood frame over the pollen/honey frames. Place those two frames in position 5 and 6
8. Take the ONE frame that has the most HEALTHY brood on it. This may not be the frame that has the most brood, you are looking for the one that is the most healthy and well organized. It may be the frame that has the smallest brood patch on it. It may be mostly empty with only eggs or it may also have some pollen/honey stores on it. This is your -new nest- frame. Place that frame in position 4.
9. Now shake all the bees and scramblers into the centre of the fine new home you just built for them. Target the top bar of the brood frame in position 4. Shake all bees in from the rest of the frames of all the other boxes into the new hive body. Once they've settled down a bit, make a note of how many frames of bees there are in the box, colony size. You will use this as a gauge later as to if things getting better or getting worse.
10. Place an ApiVar strip between frames 3 and 4. Place another one between frames 5 and 6.
11. Take the queen in cage out of your pocket. Isn't she pretty, having been safely kept warm and cozy away from all the ruckus you just made. Quietly release her into the gap between top bars of frames 4 and 5. Watch her sniff around a bit then she walks down, big wide waddling, all-in safe and sound.
12. Put the lid on, clean up the area, haul away the equipment. Walk away.
13. Bag and freeze overnight all the frames that were removed. If freezer is small, just do a few frames at a time, no biggie. As you take them out, scrape the bars clean. Scrape clean the boxes. Do not keep any of the scrapings. Toss in the trash. Put the equipment into storage ready for spring.
14. Go drink some hot chocolate or binge on a bag of chips.
15. Do not open the hive again for at least 1 week. After 1 week check in for bee health and active queen and not queen cells. Are they all still in there? Are they looking good, bunch of happy, buzzy, fuzzy bees? Or, are they totally done for now.
16. You have accomplished a healthy hive that is treated and has enough resources to make the winter. Wrap them up, or whatever your wintering configuration is. Done. Go eat some more chips.
17. Remove the ApiVar strips at 6+ weeks.
Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you!! My nature is to be overly descriptive as well and this is right up my alley! The only part of this process that I will not follow is step 2, since I have an insect collection, as well as a sister who can make jewelry, and a queen would be a great addition to my collection and could also be resined and made into a lovely necklace, so into the freezer it will be for her. My only other question is this. If I'm going to spend the money on the ApiVar, would it be better to spend the money on a queen, since the girls did supersede the old queen, and I can't be 100% sure which queen is which or that the one queen isn't a daughter? Also, is there a particular reason you are recommending ApiVar? With my desire to be chemical free ideally, I'd naturally gravitate to formic acid if I'm doing a "hard treatment".
Post by: TheHoneyPump on October 15, 2018, 06:46:03 pm
For reasons previously stated, late queens really suck, therefore no I would not recommend purchasing a new queen at this point in the season. What lays before you is a decision of trying to help them as described or terminating the hive altogether and restock it in the spring. It you do give them a chance, as to which queen to keep ... you will know her when you see her ;)
Apivar is suggested because it is proven, it is easy to use with no need for any extra equipment (vaporizer), it is reasonable price wise, there are no aftereffects no residuals. ( In essence we are ALL treatment free. Which means no treatment until absolutely necessary. No one likes to or wants to ever put chemicals into a beehive. However, once a life or death situation for the bees is laid at their feet, do you treat them so they continue to thrive or do you choose death for them. And if you choose death do you leave them to suffer through it and dwindle to the last agonized bee or do you have compassion and end it all abruptly by terminating the whole hive at once. The responsible choice is to end the suffering by treating or end the suffering by terminating. )
Kool idea on encasing the other queen in resin. You'd best do that as soon as possible so her body does not dry and shrink, losing the appeal.
You may have some tough decisions immediately in front of you on this one. Whichever you do keep to the path of -whats best for the bees- which sometimes is not the one that allows a problem to linger. Whatever you do, and whichever way you go, always have fun with it and enjoy the experience!
Post by: The15thMember on October 15, 2018, 07:01:28 pm
Which queen to keep is a decision you will have to make. You will know her when you see her. She'll be the plumpest one walking about with authority, in fitness and comfort. The smaller faster one is the one you don't want.Oh right, late queens are bad. Sorry, getting excited and not thinking. And don't worry, the learning experience is the fun part for me. And thank you so much again. Anytime a step-by-step list of instructions is applicable I prefer it, and will follow your advice to the letter.
For reasons previously stated, late queens really suck, therefore no I would not recommend purchasing a new queen at this point in the season. What lays before you is a decision of trying to help them as described or terminating the hive altogether and restock it in the spring. It you do give them a chance, as to which queen to keep ... you will know her when you see her ;)
Kool idea on encasing the other queen in resin. You'd best do that as soon as possible so her body does not dry and shrink, losing the appeal.
You may have some tough decisions immediately in front of you on this one. Whichever you do keep to the path of -whats best for the bees- which sometimes is not the one that allows a problem to linger. Whatever you do, and whichever way you go, always have fun with it and enjoy the experience!
I don't want to seem pushy, but I edited my previous post kind of late with another question I forgot to add. I probably should have just waited until you responded, because maybe you were typing when I made the change? I was wondering if you were recommending ApiVar specifically over other brands, as my chemical free desire would lead me to FormicPro instead. Just curious.
Post by: TheHoneyPump on October 15, 2018, 07:03:23 pm
Good luck with them!
Post by: Van, Arkansas, USA on October 15, 2018, 07:23:03 pm
Member:?above is the chemical name of apivar. Just thought you should know, more later.
Blessings
Post by: Van, Arkansas, USA on October 15, 2018, 08:02:10 pm
Article on apivar and other miticides from PubMed, {library of Congress}not google. In short the article raises concerns on apivar.
HoneyPumb has put forth tremendous and generous efforts of time. His time is to be appreciated. However my only concern is the apivar, yes the apivar is simple as pointed out and approved for treatment of varroa by all states, even California but new research raises concerns. HoneyPump I would especially appreciate your reading and review of the above article. There are several articles I must dive into to see the latest effects of apivar as well as other miticides.
Now I need more time to study: the above article raises concerns of whole hive detrimental effects.
For the record, I have both treated and treatment free hives. More later.
Blessings
Post by: Van, Arkansas, USA on October 15, 2018, 09:23:09 pm
Amitraz is the same as apivar. In short the above stated apivar blocks an insects ability to resist insecticides. In one sentence as simple as I can state the info.
So Ms. Member, Bless you for your concern of your honeybees. I am anxious to see what gives when you inspect tomorrow.
Off subject: Ms. Member; I sincerely hope the hurricane had little effect on you and family, I just looked at your location or I would have expressed concerns earlier.
Blessings
Post by: ed/La. on October 15, 2018, 10:04:09 pm
Post by: The15thMember on October 16, 2018, 12:41:47 am
N-[[(2>4-dimethylphcnyl)imino]methyl]-N-methyImethammidamidcThat is so awesome. I am such a nerd. :rolleyes:
Member:?above is the chemical name of apivar. Just thought you should know, more later.
Blessings
Randy Oliver{Most tree fruit growers will remember amitraz as Mitac which was used heavily for pear psylla control in the past. This product was routinely used for synergizing organophosphate and pyrethroid insecticides in crops like cotton where key pests had developed resistance, because it shut down the enzymes insects used to detoxify pesticides.}Seriously, I am such a nerd. You want to know how much of a nerd I am? I actually started giggling and jumping up and down with excitement because for the first time in my life, in a conversation that was not wholly academic, someone said something sciency and I didn't understand the majority of the words contained in the sentence. I just love learning! That's how much of a nerd I am.
Amitraz is the same as apivar. In short the above stated apivar blocks an insects ability to resist insecticides. In one sentence as simple as I can state the info.
So Ms. Member, Bless you for your concern of your honeybees. I am anxious to see what gives when you inspect tomorrow.
Off subject: Ms. Member; I sincerely hope the hurricane had little effect on you and family, I just looked at your location or I would have expressed concerns earlier.
Blessings
Thanks for doing this research for me, Van. And don't worry, I'm going to take my time and do my research and figure out what route I want to go as far as the treatment goes. So please keep the information coming, it's fantastic.
Also don't worry about us with the hurricanes, we were very lucky. Only had a little sprinkling from Florence, and just some overnight rain from Michael.
8 frames medium is not a lot of bees for this time of year. it is basically a nuc. 4 frames of brood? Full frames? If full that would equal 10 or 12 frames of bees and you would be OK if they survive and not weak from mites. With a small entrance you describe robbing is unlikely until they already abscond. You described a weak hive or decent nuc.Once robbing starts weak hives leave or once they abscond robbing starts. My guess is they absconded because of high varoa count then robbing started. There will probably not be any queens in there. In week or so wax moths will slime out what is left.I think you already lost this hive. I hope for the best for your bees but it doesn't sound good. Keep us updated. I hope I am wrong. Good luckI am fully prepared to go in there tomorrow and find a disaster. I really may have witnessed an absconding today, and who knows if my robbing precautions did any good. We're going in the hive first thing tomorrow ("we" being me and my sister, who helps me out up at the hives) so you guys can expect to hear from me sometime tomorrow afternoon. I hope you're wrong too, ed/La. Haha. :cheesy:
Post by: The15thMember on October 16, 2018, 11:33:35 am
Post by: TheHoneyPump on October 16, 2018, 01:00:46 pm
Well, I?m a bit earlier than I anticipated, which as you can imagine is not good news. I apparently did witness absconding yesterday because the hive is completely empty this morning. We found one queen on the bottom board, dead but her retinue was still around her. :cry: Other than them, nobody home. I?ll get you guys some pictures of the hive. I?m going to check the cells for varroa and EFB still, and I?ll pull out the brood that was left and see what the mite count looks like. Is there anything else I should look for during the postmortem? Also there were 3 frames of honey left that are pretty decent looking, partially capped and with minimal damage from robbing or moths. Should I give the honey to my other hive or can I keep it for myself?
So sorry to hear this. Though not unexpected, right?
We are all very interested in seeing pictures of the brood combs. If you can take pictures at different angles of the cells, that helps.
Do not be tempted to put any of that brood into any of your other hives! Inspect it, diagnose it, then freeze it for 24 hours.
The honey frames, do not use them in the other hives until after the post mortem diagnosis is complete. Reason is depending on what the cause was, the diagnosis, it may be in the honey. If the cause is settled on mites, go ahead and use the honey to bolster the stores of the other hives. If the cause is any brood disease whatsoever, the honey frames need to be kept away from the other hives by extracting them and potentially also melting them down, depending on what it is.
Post by: ed/La. on October 16, 2018, 01:09:05 pm
Post by: The15thMember on October 16, 2018, 03:38:56 pm
Post by: TheHoneyPump on October 16, 2018, 03:42:53 pm
If night was not to cold and brood not overloaded with mites you can give brood to other hives. The honey can be given to other hives if you think they need it or save to give in early spring after freezing to kill any pest eggs. You also could keep for yourself and feed them syrup when they need it. I would guess goldenrod is blooming there now. If honey looks dark it could be goldenrod honey and many people do not care for it.
No!
First picture. Mite on the back of bee at bottom left of the huddle and in the thorax crevice of the two bees above her.
Third picture. Mite poop on the upper side of every cell.
Last picture. Mite running around on capped brood and mite poop in every open cells.
Your hive was overwhelmed by mites. They couldn't handle it anymore and left. Freeze everything, scrapings, bottom board debris, everything. Kill every bee in it, do not let them go anywhere. Clean up, do not give anything to the other hives. Restock as a new hive, split from another, it in the spring.
Treat every other hive in this apiary yard for mites. Right now! The bees that left are drifted into the other hives now. And do not be softy touchy feely about it if you truly want any of the other hives to survive. Treat aggressively. ApiVar is 99% kill.
Post by: The15thMember on October 16, 2018, 03:50:18 pm
Post by: Van, Arkansas, USA on October 16, 2018, 03:52:18 pm
Dang mites, a common issue to all beeks. The difference is how we each deal with the mites. Notice I have not stated how I deal with mites because I wish you to decide for yourself.
Good pics, Ms. Member.
Blessings
Post by: TheHoneyPump on October 16, 2018, 03:56:45 pm
Post by: The15thMember on October 16, 2018, 03:58:18 pm
Post by: The15thMember on October 16, 2018, 04:07:25 pm
Post by: TheHoneyPump on October 16, 2018, 04:10:43 pm
Post by: Van, Arkansas, USA on October 16, 2018, 04:25:58 pm
Post by: The15thMember on October 16, 2018, 04:29:29 pm
The brown bits on pupae to me, look to be just trash, bits of cocoon or whatever that stuck to dead pupae as you lifted it out of the cell.Thanks, Van. I figured it was nothing major, but just wanted to make sure.
After freezing sure. However, you are going to need those frames of stores for when you rebuild and restock the hive with fresh healthy bees later. If you do not have a way to store so that moths and other critters do not destroy it then sure, give it to another hive after been frozen stiff AND in a hive that you are promptly also treating.Oh, okay good. What I was planning on doing, since I don't have a lot of storage, is to give the really nice honey and pollen frames to my other hive, and then store any nicely drawn blanks so I have some drawn comb on hand for a split next year, and melt down the poorly drawn ones.
Now the other thing I want to mention is that I did leave some of the frames that had honey on them outside for the other bees to clean out. When we started cleaning everything up, they found the boxes way faster than I anticipated, and I was fairly certain by that point it was mites and not something pathogenic or contagious, so I figured what's the harm it letting them clean out the frames. Was that a mistake on my part?
Post by: TheHoneyPump on October 16, 2018, 04:46:54 pm
Also, mites vector viruses. Such as those -old black bees- you mentioned at the outset of the thread. Not old bees. Sick bees. Also some viral/pathogens do indeed reside in the comb, honey, and pollen. Easily taken back to an otherwise healthy hive, infecting a new colony. This is why open feeding and leaving equipment out to be robbed is discouraged. We all do it. Though not when the equipment has come from a dead out such as this.
Since you are planning to take immediate action to treat the other hives in the apiary, don't worry about it. You treatment(s), assuming you choose the most proven treatment(s) that are expedient in their efficacy, then the potential impact to the other hives should at least be reduced.
Post by: The15thMember on October 16, 2018, 04:51:19 pm
Whatever mites were still hidden or walking around on those frames have now hitched a ride to a new home full of fresh meaty buzzy bees.Yeah, not something I'm going to do again. :oops: Well, looks like I'm spending the rest of the day researching mite treatments. :wink:
Also, mites vector viruses. Such as those -old black bees- you mentioned at the outset of the thread. Not old bees. Sick bees. Also some viral/pathogens do indeed reside in the comb, honey, and pollen. Easily taken back to an otherwise healthy hive, infecting a new colony. This is why open feeding and leaving equipment out to be robbed is discouraged. We all do it. Though not when the equipment has come from a dead out such as this.
Since you are planning to take immediate action to treat the other hives in the apiary, don't worry about it. You treatment(s), assuming you choose the most proven treatment(s) that are expedient in their efficacy, then the potential impact to the other hives should at least be reduced.
Post by: TheHoneyPump on October 16, 2018, 05:01:26 pm
Post by: The15thMember on October 16, 2018, 05:18:37 pm
Just do not take your time about it. A couple of mite bombs just went off in your apiary over the past week. You have just 3 days or less to get treatment(s) in hand and applied into the other nearby hives. Mite cycle is 6 to 7 days or less. Really would be saddened to see you back here in a week or less reporting another hive just crashed. Do not muck around dawdling on what to do nor muck about with mites. At this stage, they require a heavy determined hand. Leave the soft white fuzzy gloves in the house. You may take that comment as too forceful, however you will soon realize it is not.I don't take that comment too forcefully, and I thank you for being straight with me. I do realize that I am in a precarious situation here, and rest assured, I am committed to rectifying it, and speedily at that. All I meant was that I'm not going to panic and just rush out to the nearest farm store and by the first thing off the shelf and then regret that later as well. I just want to make sure I know what I'm getting into with the treatment that I'm choosing and the hazards that it also presents and make sure I make the best decision I can given the situation I am now in.
Post by: blackforest beekeeper on October 16, 2018, 07:05:51 pm
If night was not to cold and brood not overloaded with mites you can give brood to other hives. The honey can be given to other hives if you think they need it or save to give in early spring after freezing to kill any pest eggs. You also could keep for yourself and feed them syrup when they need it. I would guess goldenrod is blooming there now. If honey looks dark it could be goldenrod honey and many people do not care for it.
if I found a hive dead of mites (which it sounds like if it was around my place) it will have had a lot of viruses, too. Anything from a dead hive or one that was failing and killed would see my melter.
Post by: blackforest beekeeper on October 16, 2018, 07:23:20 pm
Just do not take your time about it. A couple of mite bombs just went off in your apiary over the past week. You have just 3 days or less to get treatment(s) in hand and applied into the other nearby hives. Mite cycle is 6 to 7 days or less. Really would be saddened to see you back here in a week or less reporting another hive just crashed. Do not muck around dawdling on what to do nor muck about with mites. At this stage, they require a heavy determined hand. Leave the soft white fuzzy gloves in the house. You may take that comment as too forceful, however you will soon realize it is not.I don't take that comment too forcefully, and I thank you for being straight with me. I do realize that I am in a precarious situation here, and rest assured, I am committed to rectifying it, and speedily at that. All I meant was that I'm not going to panic and just rush out to the nearest farm store and by the first thing off the shelf and then regret that later as well. I just want to make sure I know what I'm getting into with the treatment that I'm choosing and the hazards that it also presents and make sure I make the best decision I can given the situation I am now in.
Don`t mess around. Don`t be idealistic. Your bees life is at stake. Be idealistic when Your bees can afford it. It may already be too late.
In my first year all my hives died of varroa, too. I did what my friend told me to do but it just wasnt enough in my micro-climate. Also, I didn?t read up on the matter...
Today I checked 80 hives after not seeing them for 3 weeks. on 90% the mite-count was around zero, although they are unusually breeding high time still. I can be idealistic with my treatments. I am.
You will get there.
You just might be idealistic, IF Your cilmate still allows for some weeks of breeding and foraging. Take out all the brood , do an OAV, catch the remaining mites in a brood comb with open brood being capped soon. Melt that when mostly capped, do another OAV with brood minimum three days from being capped, no more.
I don?t know about hard treatments as HP suggested. Being idealistic takes feeling the pulse of the mites coninously.
So maybe: Do as THP says. And keep up the joy with the bees.
Post by: The15thMember on October 16, 2018, 07:50:48 pm
You just might be idealistic, IF Your cilmate still allows for some weeks of breeding and foraging. Take out all the brood , do an OAV, catch the remaining mites in a brood comb with open brood being capped soon. Melt that when mostly capped, do another OAV with brood minimum three days from being capped, no more.I know that a lot of people use vaporizers without incident, but I'm concerned about the safety hazards that they present, the fire risk, and the breathing in the vapors and such. I'll go there if I've got to, but for this sort of one time thing, I can't spend the money on that equipment either, since I'd really rather not use it in the future.
In spite of the farm store anecdote I just used, since speed is an issue, I am essentially limited to what the farm stores around here have. I'm pretty sure the one place around here carries Mite Away Quick Strips, and I'm sort of inclined to go with that.
Post by: Ben Framed on October 16, 2018, 08:08:18 pm
Thank you all again.
Sincerely, Phillip Hall "Ben Framed"
Post by: blackforest beekeeper on October 16, 2018, 08:24:08 pm
You just might be idealistic, IF Your cilmate still allows for some weeks of breeding and foraging. Take out all the brood , do an OAV, catch the remaining mites in a brood comb with open brood being capped soon. Melt that when mostly capped, do another OAV with brood minimum three days from being capped, no more.I know that a lot of people use vaporizers without incident, but I'm concerned about the safety hazards that they present, the fire risk, and the breathing in the vapors and such. I'll go there if I've got to, but for this sort of one time thing, I can't spend the money on that equipment either, since I'd really rather not use it in the future.
In spite of the farm store anecdote I just used, since speed is an issue, I am essentially limited to what the farm stores around here have. I'm pretty sure the one place around here carries Mite Away Quick Strips, and I'm sort of inclined to go with that.
OAV can be very cheap: http://www.imker-hechingen.de/Dokumente/Aktuelles_Imkertipps/OS%20verdampfen%20mit%20Teelicht.pdf
also, instead of OAV, you might use formic acid on a sponge cloth to achieve the same. Just harder.
but go for the hard and secure way. hit the mites and the bees hard. because: the sick bees will only be a burden on the sound ones and they will not make it to spring-build-up anyway. So best to clean the hive of them now.
Don`t look at the single bee. Look at the hive. or not even that. Look at the "population" in your area, in your yard.
Post by: beepro on October 16, 2018, 10:19:00 pm
wait until early Spring to give them another round of early IPM cap brood removal. This should remove any
remaining mite from the clean hives. The infected hive (C) I will make new early Spring queens from it. This will give it an early
brood break. After the mites are gone I will give the queen less hive a mated Spring queen. I already have a plan on hitting the
mites early next season while continuing my hives expansion.
Post by: TheHoneyPump on October 17, 2018, 02:11:04 am
Post by: The15thMember on October 17, 2018, 05:09:28 pm
A couple of article pictures of mites that my be enlightening to connect with the what you saw today in the cells of the combs and on the pupae. Note the second picture gives explanation to the mite poop deposits on the abdomens of the pupae that were stuck to the tines on the cappings scratcher.Wow, great pictures! That top one shows exactly what I was seeing, the lighter colored young females and the differently shaped males.
I went to my CO-OP store today and got the MAQS, so I?ll be applying that tomorrow. The instructions say that the hive?s entrance should be fully open with no entrance reducer in place so there is adequate ventilation. I have a robbing screen on this hive right now. Obviously there is a full entrance behind the screen, so can I leave the robbing screen on? Or is the screen considered an entrance reducer and should I take it off for the treatment?
Post by: Van, Arkansas, USA on October 17, 2018, 06:52:27 pm
There are honeybees that uncap and remove fertile mites, but the same bees do not uncap nor remove the infertile mites. The photo you posted MAY explain why: infertile mites poop on the bottom of the cell.
Blessings
Post by: Van, Arkansas, USA on October 17, 2018, 08:53:20 pm
Close up of the mouth of a Varroa mite. The red daggers are the killing machinery of the mite. In the photo the daggers apparently got crossed, in reality the daggers hang straight down similar to a snakes fangs. The daggers are to small to be seen with the unaided eye.
Post by: The15thMember on October 17, 2018, 10:31:16 pm
Close up of the mouth of a Varroa mite. The red daggers are the killing machinery of the mite. In the photo the daggers apparently got crossed, in reality the daggers hand straight down similar to a snakes fangs. The daggers are to small to be seen with the unaided eye.
Woah! Awesome! Well, and not awesome I guess. :embarassed: Awesome image, but not awesome for bees. Is that picture from a scanning electron microscope?
Post by: Van, Arkansas, USA on October 17, 2018, 11:13:36 pm
Post by: The15thMember on October 18, 2018, 08:03:20 pm
Post by: The15thMember on October 25, 2018, 07:28:40 pm
Post by: Ben Framed on October 25, 2018, 09:22:20 pm
The photo of me is like 1/2 million years old, I wanted to show off my bull elk kill.
Nice Bull elk Mr Van!!
Post by: BeeMaster2 on October 25, 2018, 09:39:38 pm
That is a really nice bull.
Jim
Post by: TheHoneyPump on October 25, 2018, 10:03:14 pm
Does the hive have a slide out bottom board to view amount of mite drop since putting in the strips? Just wondering if you have noticed any more, less, or same mite on the board from now to the pre-treatment.
So glad to hear the second hive is looking to be in good condition.
Post by: The15thMember on October 25, 2018, 10:09:32 pm
That is GREAT news 15thmember! Sounds like a really positive outcome. Leave the MAQS in for another week then toss them or even use them in your hive smoker.Oh duh, sorry, I forgot to mention the bottom board drop. The count was 335, which is MUCH higher than I?ve seen in this hive all year.
Does the hive have a slide out bottom board to view amount of mite drop since putting in the strips? Just wondering if you have noticed any more, less, or same mite on the board from now to the pre-treatment.
So glad to hear the second hive is looking to be in good condition.
Post by: Van, Arkansas, USA on October 25, 2018, 10:48:22 pm
Member, so glad to hear the good news, very glad indeed.
Blessings
Post by: TheHoneyPump on October 25, 2018, 11:43:21 pm
That is GREAT news 15thmember! Sounds like a really positive outcome. Leave the MAQS in for another week then toss them or even use them in your hive smoker.Oh duh, sorry, I forgot to mention the bottom board drop. The count was 335, which is MUCH higher than I?ve seen in this hive all year.
Does the hive have a slide out bottom board to view amount of mite drop since putting in the strips? Just wondering if you have noticed any more, less, or same mite on the board from now to the pre-treatment.
So glad to hear the second hive is looking to be in good condition.
Ok good. Very good.
Btw - your observations of a good population in the hive ... you have probably found and seen where a good portion of the absconded hive bees eventually went to.
I would be strongly tempted, and may suggest, a second round of the MAQS next week right about the time and just before those new eggs have developed to the point of being capped. That will hit whatever mites are left just before they get to sneak in under the pupae. Clean the board just before so you can see the extent of the effect of the second round. Which hopefully will trend to be much fewer. Afterward you can then be fully comforted that the bees have had all the help they possibly could be given and they should be good through to the spring.
Beeing observant. Asking for input on the concerns your were seeing. Great effort of taking action on the info given to promptly help the other hive as best you could.
. WELL DONE, BEEKEEPER!
Post by: Ben Framed on October 26, 2018, 02:01:15 am
Ben, Jim, thank you, about 650-700 pounds of tasty Bull elk, 5X5, surprisingly tender.
Member, so glad to hear the good news, very glad indeed.
Blessings
What does elk taste like? Deer, beef, nothing else? :tongue:
Post by: blackforest beekeeper on October 26, 2018, 02:40:50 am
That is GREAT news 15thmember! Sounds like a really positive outcome. Leave the MAQS in for another week then toss them or even use them in your hive smoker.Oh duh, sorry, I forgot to mention the bottom board drop. The count was 335, which is MUCH higher than I?ve seen in this hive all year.
Does the hive have a slide out bottom board to view amount of mite drop since putting in the strips? Just wondering if you have noticed any more, less, or same mite on the board from now to the pre-treatment.
So glad to hear the second hive is looking to be in good condition.
Per day? Or all in all during the treatment?
Post by: TheHoneyPump on October 26, 2018, 11:26:05 am
The intent of putting it together is to share a condensed and concise version of the information and the learnings so that everyone can have a better understanding of the signs and symptoms experienced with the hive. It is hoped that everyone can benefit at improving skills at diagnosing what is going on in the hives and what the bees need from us to help them along.
Folks you may view the slide-deck at this link. It may not exist indefinitely and the link may be broken if/when there are updates to the file. I am not imposing any limitations or copyright type stuff on it, however I do reserve the right to unilaterally revise as see I fit. Please freely share and discuss around your local bee clubs and peers.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NvP-olm7vwMxPVH-Oi1CNHH70Wq913ym/view?usp=sharing
I hope you find it useful. ENJOY!
Post by: The15thMember on October 26, 2018, 02:55:14 pm
Per day? Or all in all during the treatment?Oh no, not per day, over the course of the week of the treatment.
I would be strongly tempted, and may suggest, a second round of the MAQS next week right about the time and just before those new eggs have developed to the point of being capped. That will hit whatever mites are left just before they get to sneak in under the pupae. Clean the board just before so you can see the extent of the effect of the second round. Which hopefully will trend to be much fewer. Afterward you can then be fully comforted that the bees have had all the help they possibly could be given and they should be good through to the spring.I'm going to do a sugar roll next week to check what the mite situation looks like, and if it seems concerning, then I may do a second round. My concern with doing another round of the MAQS is the health of the queen and the open brood. Since I didn't see any open larva, I'm presuming that there was high mortality amongst that brood stage, and since I'm not sure when egg laying stops in my area, I'm thinking that it might be a good idea to let them get one or two more solid rounds of brood in. I would also be concerned about the queen with that heavy of a treatment. People seem to have issues with supersedure with the MAQS and I really wouldn't want to be in that boat again, like I just was with the deadout hive.
Beeing observant. Asking for input on the concerns your were seeing. Great effort of taking action on the info given to promptly help the other hive as best you could.
WELL DONE, BEEKEEPER!
Post by: TheHoneyPump on October 26, 2018, 03:05:23 pm
With respect to the queen. If you do need to do another treatment and you are worried about the queen. That is quite simple. Put her in a cage with 5 healthy workers and bring her into the house. Feed them water and a drop of honey each day. While she is safe, treat the hive. The queen in cage is safe for at least 5 days. Keep her in warm place with her bees and she will last up to 10 days. The bees will die before the queen. When the bees in the cage start dying off, you know you need to get her back to the hive that very day. In one week after applying second treatment, check the hive for queen cells, destroy them, and reintroduce the queen. It is a way to treat without loosing her. ;)
Post by: The15thMember on October 26, 2018, 06:16:09 pm
If there are still a lot of mites and you let them brood, there will continue to be a lot of mites. Yes, good to do a sugar roll sample at least 3 days before the brood will be capped so you know what the load is and whether to treat again or not. You know when the eggs were laid, the capping will be on day 8 from egg. Do your sample roll on day 4 or 5 and let the results decide what to do.Alright, so I'll do a sugar roll on Monday or Tuesday to get some info on what I'm going to do. I never thought of bringing the queen inside, that's totally a good idea! I don't have a queen cage that could hold that many attendants comfortably, but I could always fudge something with some sort of dish and some hardware cloth. Maybe a pint jar with some hardware cloth in the lid.
With respect to the queen. If you do need to do another treatment and you are worried about the queen. That is quite simple. Put her in a cage with 5 healthy workers and bring her into the house. Feed them water and a drop of honey each day. While she is safe, treat the hive. The queen in cage is safe for at least 5 days. Keep her in warm place with her bees and she will last up to 10 days. The bees will die before the queen. When the bees in the cage start dying off, you know you need to get her back to the hive that very day. In one week after applying second treatment, check the hive for queen cells, destroy them, and reintroduce the queen. It is a way to treat without loosing her. ;)
I have taken some time to put together a brief slide-deck on this case. Thank you @the15thmember for sharing the hi-res versions of the pictures and co-editing the deck.
The intent of putting it together is to share a condensed and concise version of the information and the learnings so that everyone can have a better understanding of the signs and symptoms experienced with the hive. It is hoped that everyone can benefit at improving skills at diagnosing what is going on in the hives and what the bees need from us to help them along.
Folks you may view the slide-deck at this link. It may not exist indefinitely and the link may be broken if/when there are updates to the file. I am not imposing any limitations or copyright type stuff on it, however I do reserve the right to unilaterally revise as see I fit. Please freely share and discuss around your local bee clubs and peers.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NvP-olm7vwMxPVH-Oi1CNHH70Wq913ym/view?usp=sharing
I hope you find it useful. ENJOY!
Like. :tongue: :cheesy:
Post by: Ben Framed on October 27, 2018, 10:34:55 am
Sincerely,
Phillip Hall "Ben Framed"
Post by: The15thMember on October 27, 2018, 04:52:39 pm
Post by: cao on October 27, 2018, 06:39:36 pm
The temp outside right now is about 45oF, and it's cloudy and spritzing, so it's pretty nasty out. Is it just more dead loss from the formic acid, and are they just leaving them at the entrance because it's cold and nasty and they don't want to fly right now? Should I be concerned about this?I don't know about the formic acid, but dead bees will accumulate on the landing board during the winter when it is too cold for the bees to be flying. Depending on your weather and if you have the entrance reduced, they may even block the entrance entirely. When it warms up after a long cold spell, I will go around my hives and scrape off the dead bees to open up the entrance.
Post by: The15thMember on October 27, 2018, 06:56:35 pm
I don't know about the formic acid, but dead bees will accumulate on the landing board during the winter when it is too cold for the bees to be flying. Depending on your weather and if you have the entrance reduced, they may even block the entrance entirely. When it warms up after a long cold spell, I will go around my hives and scrape off the dead bees to open up the entrance.Thanks, cao. Today is the first day it?s been particularly cold here, so it?s probably just that. I?m going into my first winter so I?ve just never seen this before. I didn?t have a chance to check on them yesterday, so I?m not even sure the dead bees are all from today.
Post by: blackforest beekeeper on October 28, 2018, 04:04:14 am
first, there will be many bees still dying.
now that its cold, they cant be disposed of - so you get to see them.
300 something mites for a treatment is nothing if the hive has had it really bad. It all depends on how many are left in the hive. and how badly the bees have been injured.
So you might see a lot more dead bees there when chilly, yet.
40 dead bees is not a whole lot, either.
Post by: The15thMember on October 29, 2018, 06:56:14 pm
Post by: TheHoneyPump on October 30, 2018, 01:42:54 am
.Only way your sample would be misrepresenting is if the new eggs/larvae are nearing capped and most of the mites have moved into the bottoms of the cells. The formic should have still reached them in there before capping. Event still, at a count of 1 - 3 the bees will be ok. 1 - 3 is in the do nothing zone, do not treat zone. Let bees be bees.
Reads like you hit them with the MAQS right on time and kicked them right in the ...
Sample and check again in your springtime, just before they start brooding to buildup. For me, that is April. For you, may be as early as end of February.
Post by: blackforest beekeeper on October 30, 2018, 05:00:51 am
how many bees do you sugar?
what are the numbers to decide on treating or not treating depending on time of year? or the numbers for the overall-mite-population calculated from the sugar-roll-results?
didn`t the count BEFORE show just about the same result?
on formic acid:
you described a sort of late-fall weather with rain and chilly. formic acid will not work under those circumstances.
Post by: The15thMember on October 30, 2018, 12:16:40 pm
AWESOME! Cleaned them upAbsolutely I'll be sure to stay more on top of the mite situation from now on. Oh, yeah, my bees will definitely have brood before April down here in the south! :wink:
Only way your sample would be misrepresenting is if the new eggs/larvae are nearing capped and most of the mites have moved into the bottoms of the cells. The formic should have still reached them in there before capping. Event still, at a count of 1 - 3 the bees will be ok. 1 - 3 is in the do nothing zone, do not treat zone. Let bees be bees.
Reads like you hit them with the MAQS right on time and kicked them right in the ...
Sample and check again in your springtime, just before they start brooding to buildup. For me, that is April. For you, may be as early as end of February.
Let me aks some things, as I have never used the sugar-roll-method:It has been cold here this week, but not the week that the treatment was first in. The MAQS are only supposed to be a 1 week long treatment, and the temps have to be above 50oF during the day according to the directions on the package, which it was for that week. I'm just leaving it in for another week because there was still some acid left in the pads, and the instructions say you can leave it in until the bees remove it.
how many bees do you sugar?
what are the numbers to decide on treating or not treating depending on time of year? or the numbers for the overall-mite-population calculated from the sugar-roll-results?
didn`t the count BEFORE show just about the same result?
on formic acid:
you described a sort of late-fall weather with rain and chilly. formic acid will not work under those circumstances.
As far as the sugar roll goes, personally what I do is I put about 1 cup of bees in a quart sized mason jar that has a mesh lid, and put 2 tablespoons of powdered sugar on top of them. I then shake the jar to coat them well with sugar, and then I let them sit in the shade for 2 minutes to heat up. Then I turn the jar upside down and shake as much sugar out as possible onto a paper plate, then I release the bees back into the hive, and count the mites on the plate, and any that were left in the bottom of the jar. 1/2 cup of bees = 300 bees, so from that you can calculate the percentage of mites to bees. Did I post my sugar roll from before the other hive died? I can't seem to find where it is, but if I did I had the numbers wrong. I went back and looked in my notes to double check what it was before, and I did my math wrong. Before the other hive died, I rolled 1 1/2 cups of bees from this hive (just happened to get too many in the jar that day) and I got 22 mites. That's a little over 7 mites/300 bees which according to the chart in my book is a 5% infestation. Or you could just calculate the percentage, which would come out to be about 2.4%, if my math is correct. (I'm not sure what factors the chart in my book is adjusting for, so I'm not sure why the percentages are different. I was just using the chart because it was convenient.) Note that the first roll was done before the other hive died and spread the mites to this hive, so it went down from more than 7 mites/300 bees to 2-3 mites/300 bees. Different people have different treatment thresholds, my book recommends treatment at 10% infestation, but that is based on the book's chart. I've heard a lot of people say 5% as a treatment threshold.
Post by: TheHoneyPump on October 30, 2018, 12:24:11 pm
The media used is icing sugar.
Prepare a jar with a screened lid.
Put 1/3-1/2 cup of bees sample in the jar with sugar.
Shake vigorously for a few minutes.
Prepare a white pan with a thin layer of water. Shake the sugar (and loose mites) through the screened lid into the pan of water. Count the mites, divide by 3, multiply by 1.3 = mite load per 100 bees.
Return the Sugar coated bees to the hive.
The sugar roll sugar shake method is less effective at dislodging mites than the alcohol, yet is still a good indicator. Sugar shake still kills bees but only about half of the sample. Because it is less affective, is why I multiply the result by 1.3 to get a final number, trying to approximate what the alcohol wash would have given.
Post by: The15thMember on October 30, 2018, 12:42:11 pm
Sugar shack still kills B?s but only about half of the sample.Do the bees die after the fact or something? Because I hardly ever have more than 1 or 2 dead bees in my rolls.
Post by: blackforest beekeeper on October 30, 2018, 12:58:25 pm
Properly done, the sugar roll method essentially the same as an alcohol wash.
The media used is icing sugar.
Prepare a jar with a screened lid.
Put 1/3 cup of bees sample in the jar with sugar.
Shake vigorously for a few minutes.
Prepare a white pan with a thin layer of water. Shake the sugar (and loose mites) through the screened lid into the pan of water. Count the mites, divide by 3, multiply by 1.3 = mite load per 100 bees.
Return the Sugar coated bees to the hive.
The sugar roll sugar shake method is less effective at dislodging might than the alcohol, yet is still a good indicator. Sugar shack still kills B?s but only about half of the sample. Because it is less affective that?s why I multiply the result by 1.3 to try to give what the alcohol wash would have given.
I know the method. I just never needed it as I get along with looking at the drawer underneath the screen. (note: I don`t count them, well, I don=t count them ANY MORE).
I was interested in: How many bees?
In Germany, we use 500 bees. So mite count seems to be different as to severity.
What are the thresholds for treatment? As this is different for climates over the run of the year.
Post by: blackforest beekeeper on October 30, 2018, 01:00:06 pm
Sugar shack still kills B?s but only about half of the sample.Do the bees die after the fact or something? Because I hardly ever have more than 1 or 2 dead bees in my rolls.
if you sit with them for a while?...
what was the daily mite-count on the drawer BEFORE the treatment? as You seem to have one, though You might call it diferently.
Post by: The15thMember on October 30, 2018, 01:25:36 pm
Sorry, blackforest, maybe I'm just having trouble understanding what you mean. I don't usually count daily mite drop, I count weekly mite drop on my bottom boards. The week before I put the MAQS in the weekly drop was 70 mites. The week that the treatment was in was 335 mites. I'll check the bottom boards in a few days to see what the drop was this week, now that the treatment is essentially over. Does that answer your question?Sugar shack still kills B?s but only about half of the sample.Do the bees die after the fact or something? Because I hardly ever have more than 1 or 2 dead bees in my rolls.
if you sit with them for a while?...
what was the daily mite-count on the drawer BEFORE the treatment? as You seem to have one, though You might call it diferently.
Post by: blackforest beekeeper on October 30, 2018, 01:59:38 pm
Course You don`t count daily.
Dividing by the number of days in between counts will give the daily count. So there is a common basis.
So it was 10 mites/d. That`s definitely too much, esp. for this time of year, and treatment was needed very urgently. For November around our place 1 mite/day would a treatment be needed.
Now it`s hard to say how many mites are in the colony from that count. Factor would be 300 to 100, depending on breeding asf. in summer you could say: Factor 300, in winter: 100.
so let`s say a factor of 150. Makes 1500 mites in the colony.
You milked out 300 something. Some more for the ones dropped off in flight.
Still mite have 1000 of the critters going in there....
That is too much or calling things very close till being able to dribbel OA in winter.
Of course, this is theory and I sure as heck would like a peek at those brood-combs of Yours.
A veritable natural mite drop can be counted two weeks after the end of treatment with formic acid.
The sugar roll You just made: how many mites in the colony does that add up to?
I said Idon`t count any more. IF I counted, I would treat a lot earlier than the treatment-thresholds suggested.
Post by: blackforest beekeeper on October 30, 2018, 02:01:55 pm
Formic acid is difficult, the MAQS in Germany are not considered a very good product, as they lack punch.
Post by: The15thMember on October 30, 2018, 02:18:07 pm
I would not count on formic acid working well in temperatures in the 50s as You described. if it was very sunny and very dry during the time, maybe....I believe it was in the 60's most days last week, some days were sunny and some days were cloudy. I'm not recollecting it raining for more than like one day, but I'm not totally sure.
Formic acid is difficult, the MAQS in Germany are not considered a very good product, as they lack punch.
Hi 15th member.Ok, so correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like in your country you attempt to gauge the number of mites in the colony, whereas here we are more interested in the percentage of mites to bees in the colony. I'm not sure how to convert between a percentage and a hard number. Anyone have some baseline data here for how many bees are roughly contained within 1 box, or on 1 frame so we could convert the percentage to a number or vice versa?
Course You don`t count daily.
Dividing by the number of days in between counts will give the daily count. So there is a common basis.
So it was 10 mites/d. That`s definitely too much, esp. for this time of year, and treatment was needed very urgently. For November around our place 1 mite/day would a treatment be needed.
Now it`s hard to say how many mites are in the colony from that count. Factor would be 300 to 100, depending on breeding asf. in summer you could say: Factor 300, in winter: 100.
so let`s say a factor of 150. Makes 1500 mites in the colony.
You milked out 300 something. Some more for the ones dropped off in flight.
Still mite have 1000 of the critters going in there....
That is too much or calling things very close till being able to dribbel OA in winter.
Of course, this is theory and I sure as heck would like a peek at those brood-combs of Yours.
A veritable natural mite drop can be counted two weeks after the end of treatment with formic acid.
The sugar roll You just made: how many mites in the colony does that add up to?
I said Idon`t count any more. IF I counted, I would treat a lot earlier than the treatment-thresholds suggested.
Post by: TheHoneyPump on October 30, 2018, 02:59:16 pm
http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/beesest.html
...
Post by: blackforest beekeeper on October 30, 2018, 03:00:34 pm
The numbers I put on are for full size colonies. For nucs, usually they are halved - the thresholds, not the Factors!
As the hives have a different number of bees and brood during the course of the year, thresholds change over the course of the year, too.
I guess looking at mites/per bee could result in a good management of mites. It doesn`t matter if you measue a length in inches or mm. It`s all about knowing how to do it.
So tell me: if 10 mites/day natural drop correspond to something between a 1000 mites and 3000 mites in the colony. What would be the percentage You usually gauge the mite-load with?
To go on the system I am most familiar with (I usually don`t think about the number of mites in the colony, I keep on treating with formic acid (sponge towel every 5 or 6 days) or OAV until the fall from treatment lessens significantly). I know that if I have 10 mites/day in July, I`d better to something about it in the pretty near future. The colony might not be at risk yet, but I want a late split and I NEED healthy winter-bees.
Just to do some math: In July, we might have 30000 bees in a standard-colony, just to put out a number. 10 mites/day would be considered juuuuust bearable by me. At that time we`d have factor 300, so there would be 3000 mites or 10% mites/bee.
In December a good-sized colony might still have 10000 bees, maybe a bit more, usually less. A drop of 0,5 mites/day make treatment juuuust necessary. Factor would be 100. So 500 mites to 10000 bees. Thats 5%.
A sound colony is said should not have more thatn 50 mites going into spring. So if the numbers are right (which they are not, they are not a hundred percentage proof, but a guideline), we should have 450 dead mites on the drawer over the course of 2 or 3 weeks after dribbling OA if the bees could not fly during these weeks.
Did I get that right? So....it seems to me, for my location it would be good to distinguish the mite load in percent in the course of the year, too.
And when treating and looking at the drawer after treating, the accumulated dead mites should make a dent in the overall-population, if the treatment was effective. So it is sort of important to know the numbers until one can do the mite-control in sleep.
Post by: blackforest beekeeper on October 30, 2018, 03:05:51 pm
If You tell me in what kind of climate You keep bees, I could tell You if our numbers would be adequat.
The numbers I put on are for full size colonies. For nucs, usually they are halved - the thresholds, not the Factors!
As the hives have a different number of bees and brood during the course of the year, thresholds change over the course of the year, too.
I guess looking at mites/per bee could result in a good management of mites. It doesn`t matter if you measue a length in inches or mm. It`s all about knowing how to do it.
So tell me: if 10 mites/day natural drop correspond to something between a 1000 mites and 3000 mites in the colony. What would be the percentage You usually gauge the mite-load with?
To go on the system I am most familiar with (I usually don`t think about the number of mites in the colony, I keep on treating with formic acid (sponge towel every 5 or 6 days) or OAV until the fall from treatment lessens significantly). I know that if I have 10 mites/day in July, I`d better to something about it in the pretty near future. The colony might not be at risk yet, but I want a late split and I NEED healthy winter-bees.
Just to do some math: In July, we might have 30000 bees in a standard-colony, just to put out a number. 10 mites/day would be considered juuuuust bearable by me. At that time we`d have factor 300, so there would be 3000 mites or 10% mites/bee.
In December a good-sized colony might still have 10000 bees, maybe a bit more, usually less. A drop of 0,5 mites/day make treatment juuuust necessary. Factor would be 100. So 500 mites to 10000 bees. Thats 5%.
A sound colony is said should not have more thatn 50 mites going into spring. So if the numbers are right (which they are not, they are not a hundred percentage proof, but a guideline), we should have 450 dead mites on the drawer over the course of 2 or 3 weeks after dribbling OA if the bees could not fly during these weeks.
Did I get that right? So....it seems to me, for my location it would be good to distinguish the mite load in percent in the course of the year, too.
And when treating and looking at the drawer after treating, the accumulated dead mites should make a dent in the overall-population, if the treatment was effective. So it is sort of important to know the numbers until one can do the mite-control in sleep.
darn - I correct:
0,5 mites per day in December are 50 mites, of course. So anything above that would be good to dribble on. And with 10000 bees the percentage would be 0.5%. Sorry about that.
The count of 5 mites/day in December should yield 450 dead mites.... sorry.
I just read somewhere: in November, 1 mite/day would be the threshold for treating. So we talk of 100 mites in the colony or 1% mites/bees.
Post by: The15thMember on October 30, 2018, 06:39:03 pm
This may be helpful and useful. Actually the whole site there is a good read for anyone like a dry sponge that needs a good soaking.I end up on Dave Cushman's website all the time, as I am a sponge who can never be soaked enough. :cheesy:
http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/beesest.html
...
If You tell me in what kind of climate You keep bees, I could tell You if our numbers would be adequat.Okay, this whole conversation is sort of confusing to me for some reason. So what you are saying is that in order to gauge the success of the treatment, you have to know the population of mites before and after the treatment, so that you can tell how many of the mites the treatment killed. Isn't the sugar roll giving me that information? Instead of figuring out the mite/bee ratio for the whole hive (which seems to be essentially what you are doing), I'm just figuring out the mite/bee ratio from the roll, and applying that number to the hive. Why is knowing the number of mites beneficial? That's the part I don't understand. My mite percentage went down from 5% to 1%, so what information is that not telling me? Or to phrase it another way, what information does your method of calculating mite infestation tell you that mine does not? Essentially, why is your method better? Or are you just trying to relate my information to your method of mite tracking, so you can evaluate my situation?
The numbers I put on are for full size colonies. For nucs, usually they are halved - the thresholds, not the Factors!
As the hives have a different number of bees and brood during the course of the year, thresholds change over the course of the year, too.
I guess looking at mites/per bee could result in a good management of mites. It doesn`t matter if you measue a length in inches or mm. It`s all about knowing how to do it.
So tell me: if 10 mites/day natural drop correspond to something between a 1000 mites and 3000 mites in the colony. What would be the percentage You usually gauge the mite-load with?
To go on the system I am most familiar with (I usually don`t think about the number of mites in the colony, I keep on treating with formic acid (sponge towel every 5 or 6 days) or OAV until the fall from treatment lessens significantly). I know that if I have 10 mites/day in July, I`d better to something about it in the pretty near future. The colony might not be at risk yet, but I want a late split and I NEED healthy winter-bees.
Just to do some math: In July, we might have 30000 bees in a standard-colony, just to put out a number. 10 mites/day would be considered juuuuust bearable by me. At that time we`d have factor 300, so there would be 3000 mites or 10% mites/bee.
In December a good-sized colony might still have 10000 bees, maybe a bit more, usually less. A drop of 0,5 mites/day make treatment juuuust necessary. Factor would be 100. So 500 mites to 10000 bees. Thats 5%.
A sound colony is said should not have more thatn 50 mites going into spring. So if the numbers are right (which they are not, they are not a hundred percentage proof, but a guideline), we should have 450 dead mites on the drawer over the course of 2 or 3 weeks after dribbling OA if the bees could not fly during these weeks.
Did I get that right? So....it seems to me, for my location it would be good to distinguish the mite load in percent in the course of the year, too.
And when treating and looking at the drawer after treating, the accumulated dead mites should make a dent in the overall-population, if the treatment was effective. So it is sort of important to know the numbers until one can do the mite-control in sleep.
So tell me: if 10 mites/day natural drop correspond to something between a 1000 mites and 3000 mites in the colony. What would be the percentage You usually gauge the mite-load with?Sorry, I'm not understanding this question. Could you possibly rephrase it?
If You tell me in what kind of climate You keep bees, I could tell You if our numbers would be adequat.I'm not sure how to answer that question succinctly. What exactly are you looking for here? I'm in hardiness zone 6a, but I don't think that's a measurement that is used worldwide. Um, we are technically considered temperate rainforest. The hottest it gets is generally the upper 90's in the summer days and the coldest it gets is generally the 30's for winter highs. Right now it's about 50-70 degrees on any given day, we have some rain, but it's occasional compared to the amount of rain we got this summer, which was ridiculously wet.
Post by: Van, Arkansas, USA on October 30, 2018, 11:02:23 pm
Summer, 30,000 bees the ratio is 3.33 and 10%. So please verify if I understood your math correctly.
All those hives are in serious trouble, unless treated in June, latest July; or drone brood removed as in Beepro natural mite eradication.
Do I understand, my ratios correct???
Thanks Buddy.
Blessings
Van
Post by: Ben Framed on October 31, 2018, 01:45:23 am
Post by: blackforest beekeeper on October 31, 2018, 04:11:21 am
This may be helpful and useful. Actually the whole site there is a good read for anyone like a dry sponge that needs a good soaking.I end up on Dave Cushman's website all the time, as I am a sponge who can never be soaked enough. :cheesy:
http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/beesest.html
...If You tell me in what kind of climate You keep bees, I could tell You if our numbers would be adequat.Okay, this whole conversation is sort of confusing to me for some reason. So what you are saying is that in order to gauge the success of the treatment, you have to know the population of mites before and after the treatment, so that you can tell how many of the mites the treatment killed. Isn't the sugar roll giving me that information? Instead of figuring out the mite/bee ratio for the whole hive (which seems to be essentially what you are doing), I'm just figuring out the mite/bee ratio from the roll, and applying that number to the hive. Why is knowing the number of mites beneficial? That's the part I don't understand. My mite percentage went down from 5% to 1%, so what information is that not telling me? Or to phrase it another way, what information does your method of calculating mite infestation tell you that mine does not? Essentially, why is your method better? Or are you just trying to relate my information to your method of mite tracking, so you can evaluate my situation?
The numbers I put on are for full size colonies. For nucs, usually they are halved - the thresholds, not the Factors!
As the hives have a different number of bees and brood during the course of the year, thresholds change over the course of the year, too.
I guess looking at mites/per bee could result in a good management of mites. It doesn`t matter if you measue a length in inches or mm. It`s all about knowing how to do it.
So tell me: if 10 mites/day natural drop correspond to something between a 1000 mites and 3000 mites in the colony. What would be the percentage You usually gauge the mite-load with?
To go on the system I am most familiar with (I usually don`t think about the number of mites in the colony, I keep on treating with formic acid (sponge towel every 5 or 6 days) or OAV until the fall from treatment lessens significantly). I know that if I have 10 mites/day in July, I`d better to something about it in the pretty near future. The colony might not be at risk yet, but I want a late split and I NEED healthy winter-bees.
Just to do some math: In July, we might have 30000 bees in a standard-colony, just to put out a number. 10 mites/day would be considered juuuuust bearable by me. At that time we`d have factor 300, so there would be 3000 mites or 10% mites/bee.
In December a good-sized colony might still have 10000 bees, maybe a bit more, usually less. A drop of 0,5 mites/day make treatment juuuust necessary. Factor would be 100. So 500 mites to 10000 bees. Thats 5%.
A sound colony is said should not have more thatn 50 mites going into spring. So if the numbers are right (which they are not, they are not a hundred percentage proof, but a guideline), we should have 450 dead mites on the drawer over the course of 2 or 3 weeks after dribbling OA if the bees could not fly during these weeks.
Did I get that right? So....it seems to me, for my location it would be good to distinguish the mite load in percent in the course of the year, too.
And when treating and looking at the drawer after treating, the accumulated dead mites should make a dent in the overall-population, if the treatment was effective. So it is sort of important to know the numbers until one can do the mite-control in sleep.So tell me: if 10 mites/day natural drop correspond to something between a 1000 mites and 3000 mites in the colony. What would be the percentage You usually gauge the mite-load with?Sorry, I'm not understanding this question. Could you possibly rephrase it?If You tell me in what kind of climate You keep bees, I could tell You if our numbers would be adequat.I'm not sure how to answer that question succinctly. What exactly are you looking for here? I'm in hardiness zone 6a, but I don't think that's a measurement that is used worldwide. Um, we are technically considered temperate rainforest. The hottest it gets is generally the upper 90's in the summer days and the coldest it gets is generally the 30's for winter highs. Right now it's about 50-70 degrees on any given day, we have some rain, but it's occasional compared to the amount of rain we got this summer, which was ridiculously wet.
I try to compare the methods, yes. And give advice, if needed. I don`t think THP has been using a lot of formic acid up till now?
I told You: it doesn`t matter wether one measures a length by inches or mm. I just need to be able to compare, get the factor between inches and mm so to speak.
The 5% before treatment, I guess I missed that. Good, so treatment worked somehow.
You count the mites on the bottom-board. If you don`t put that in a percentage-number, what is it gonna tell you? Why do You do it? There must be some way to get from that to the percentage-numbers you speak of?
By the way: I think I calculated something wrong earlier:
I assumed some 30000 bees in July per colony. I guess that was too little. I am not sure about real numbers, as one can read a wide spectrum. I never counted them....
So let?s say 40000 bees and a factor of 250 (300 is probably really high) when 10 mites/day are falling we get a (theoretical) total load of 2500 mites to 40000 bees which would in percent be: 6.25%.
So: When is treatment said to be needed when using sugar roll or alcohol wash and the result in percentage given? For US/CAN I mean. I can look up the numbers for Germany.
One more thing which will make things different: I assume in the US and CAN spring treatments are common. Not so in Germany. They are illegal for reasons of food-safety. So we have to have the mite-problem solved by early fall with a little possibilty of correction in winter; till next occassion after the last honey-flow the following year.
Post by: blackforest beekeeper on October 31, 2018, 04:27:37 am
BlackForest: First thank for your post. Second in spring the ratio would be 10% and 30% for 1,000 and 3,000 respectively, assuming you 10,000 total bee population.
Summer, 30,000 bees the ratio is 3.33 and 10%. So please verify if I understood your math correctly.
All those hives are in serious trouble, unless treated in June, latest July; or drone brood removed as in Beepro natural mite eradication.
Do I understand, my ratios correct???
Thanks Buddy.
Blessings
Van
uh .... I just corrected one of my calculations. I guess, the ratio I would go for pretty immediate measures in July would be 6.25%. You probably read that already. In most cases I don`t let things get that far. Or: if I find a few like that in my apiary I would think of measures for all in the near future.
Spring: there should be no more than 1% if population was down to 5000. 50 mites over the winter as max is what is told.
In late fall or winter: treat anything above 0.5% when broodless. That corresponds to mite-drops of about 0.5 mites/day for a normal colony, I guess.
I don`t give much on drone-brood-removement. First it`s a lot of work. Second up till now my colonies where fine till last flow anyhow. Third I need the drones for my queens. That`s another topic. Most beeks in G. cut out drone-brood, I think. It is recommended.
You know: These factors corresponding to the natural mite-drop: I am quite unsure how accurate they are. with a "100-300" there is quite some inaccurracy already.
All I can say: I get along with the mite-count on the drawer fine. This sort of gauging is accurate enough. Furthermore when I get a high mite count I look at the colony real closely. There are many signs for sickness or health. Shiny bees are good, large bees are good, normally stacked feed/honey is good. Dull bees, small bees, crippled bees (very bad!), mites to be seen, caved in cappings of brood-cells, a lot of dark bees is bad.
I know commercial outfits going only by these signs, no counting of mites at all. Takes a lot of experience to do that.
I don`t suggest to do this! Any gauging is being on the safe side.
Post by: blackforest beekeeper on October 31, 2018, 04:37:10 am
I just looked up hardiness zone 6a. I lived in that zone for 1 year in northern Ohio. So I get the feel still.
Post by: The15thMember on October 31, 2018, 01:49:11 pm
I try to compare the methods, yes. And give advice, if needed. I don`t think THP has been using a lot of formic acid up till now?Okay, now I understand what you are after. I really only count mites on the bottom board to get a rough gauge on if the population is going up or down and at what rate it's changing. I learned the hard way this year that that information is not enough, and I will now be doing sugar rolls more frequently than I have in the past. I'm not using the bottom board count to get to a percentage, only to keep very general tabs on the mite situation week to week. If I want to really know my mite numbers, like for example, if the number of mites on the bottom board is concerning to me, I'll do a sugar roll. I'm a first year beekeeper whose mite plan this year failed, so I'm currently putting together a new mite strategy for next year. Therefore, other than regurgitating some numbers I've seen in passing, I can't say at what number exactly of mites on the bottom board I'd be concerned, at what percentage from a sugar roll I'd treat, or how that all varies by the time of year. I'm sure I'll learn those things as I head into next spring, but at this point I'm not qualified to answer those questions because I'm just too new of a beekeeper. Perhaps someone else would care to weigh in and provide some of that information?
I told You: it doesn`t matter wether one measures a length by inches or mm. I just need to be able to compare, get the factor between inches and mm so to speak.
The 5% before treatment, I guess I missed that. Good, so treatment worked somehow.
You count the mites on the bottom-board. If you don`t put that in a percentage-number, what is it gonna tell you? Why do You do it? There must be some way to get from that to the percentage-numbers you speak of?
By the way: I think I calculated something wrong earlier:
I assumed some 30000 bees in July per colony. I guess that was too little. I am not sure about real numbers, as one can read a wide spectrum. I never counted them....
So let?s say 40000 bees and a factor of 250 (300 is probably really high) when 10 mites/day are falling we get a (theoretical) total load of 2500 mites to 40000 bees which would in percent be: 6.25%.
So: When is treatment said to be needed when using sugar roll or alcohol wash and the result in percentage given? For US/CAN I mean. I can look up the numbers for Germany.
One more thing which will make things different: I assume in the US and CAN spring treatments are common. Not so in Germany. They are illegal for reasons of food-safety. So we have to have the mite-problem solved by early fall with a little possibilty of correction in winter; till next occassion after the last honey-flow the following year.
Post by: blackforest beekeeper on October 31, 2018, 02:38:38 pm
yes, thank you. Of course. I assumed you had the numbers at hand. my mistake. :cool:
if you do the bottom-board-count: if you get around 10 per day in summer, rings the bell. I hear alarm-clocks at 5 per day. Want those healthy large colonies if possible.
good luck to you and your bees! you`ll be doing fine.
Post by: TheHoneyPump on October 31, 2018, 03:18:36 pm
Mites on the bottom board are irrelevant. Mite drop is an indicator but with respect to mite load and management plans it is irrelevant.
Mites on the bees is the data needed. Mites on the bees is only acquired by sampling; sugar shake or alcohol wash. Multiply sugar shake by 1.3 to improve accuracy to that of alcohol. The gold standard is the alcohol wash.
Sample size matters. The bigger the sample the more accurate the results will bee. The standard is 1/3-1/2 cup which is approximately 300 bees. Use 1/2 cup, divide the result by 3. Use 1 cup, divide the result by 6.
Sample location matters. Which bees are sampled. The bees in the heart of the nest the more accurate the results will bee.
Sample timing matters. 4 times per year minimum. 1) in spring just before brooding. 2) early summer just before supering. 3) end of summer right after removing supers. 4) late fall just before wintering.
What to do with the sample results matters. Firstly, accept that there will ALWAYS be mites. Be pragmatic, zero is impossible. The standard threshold to treat varies by the beekeeper and economics play a big role in the decision when the number of hives goes up. The web is full of varying guidelines. Mine are this: 0 - 2 no treat, 3 - 5 treat by preferred method, over 6 pull out the heavy hitter arsenals. Time of year matters. In the fall anything over 3 gets the heavy treatment.
Which treatment plan to use matters. On low mite load, basic IPM and soft treatments are effective to manage them and keep them in check (spring and summer only). On high mite load infestation, heavy handed hard treatments are necessary to knock them down else you WILL lose the hive AND infect your neighbours. Be a good neighbour. Know your mite loads and keep them in check.
IMHO
Hope that helps!
Post by: blackforest beekeeper on October 31, 2018, 06:33:43 pm
My input:
Mites on the bottom board are irrelevant. Mite drop is an indicator but with respect to mite load and management plans it is irrelevant.
Mites on the bees is the data needed. Mites on the bees is only acquired by sampling; sugar shake or alcohol wash. Multiply sugar shake by 1.3 to improve accuracy to that of alcohol. The gold standard is the alcohol wash.
Sample size matters. The bigger the sample the more accurate the results will bee. The standard is 1/3-1/2 cup which is approximately 300 bees. Use 1/2 cup, divide the result by 3. Use 1 cup, divide the result by 6.
Sample location matters. Which bees are sampled. The bees in the heart of the nest the more accurate the results will bee.
Sample timing matters. 4 times per year minimum. 1) in spring just before brooding. 2) early summer just before supering. 3) end of summer right after removing supers. 4) late fall just before wintering.
What to do with the sample results matters. Firstly, accept that there will ALWAYS be mites. Be pragmatic, zero is impossible. The standard threshold to treat varies by the beekeeper and economics play a big role in the decision when the number of hives goes up. The web is full of varying guidelines. Mine are this: 0 - 2 no treat, 3 - 5 treat by preferred method, over 6 pull out the heavy hitter arsenals. Time of year matters. In the fall anything over 3 gets the heavy treatment.
Which treatment plan to use matters. On low mite load, basic IPM and soft treatments are effective to manage them and keep them in check (spring and summer only). On high mite load infestation, heavy handed hard treatments are necessary to knock them down else you WILL lose the hive AND infect your neighbours. Be a good neighbour. Know your mite loads and keep them in check.
IMHO
Hope that helps!
those numbers percentages?
Post by: blackforest beekeeper on October 31, 2018, 06:48:58 pm
The sugar-roll-method seems to have been invented in the German bee-institute of Kirchhain. At least that is what a couple of sources on the net told me.
Nevertheless it does not play a role in gauging the mite-loads. All countries have official guidelines, varying according to laws and climate. The ones I know use the mite-count on a drawer underneath the screened bottom. This drawer is supposed to be ant-tight and so forth so the dead mites stay where they fell. (mine are not, but it works anyway).
Commercial beeks often only look at a random sample out of all colonies. I have not heard of any one using any "sharper" measuring methods, I mean more accurate ones like alkohol wash or sugar roll.
Every beekeeper I know who is really doing this (and acting accordingly) has close to zero losses. In Germany, about 95% of all bees are kept over a screened bottom. Doesn`t mean all of them are tended well...
So I guess looking at the drawer and the dead mites is allright for Europeans at least....
sharp enough as it cuts.
Post by: TheHoneyPump on October 31, 2018, 07:01:48 pm
Example1:
Sugar shake method
1/2 cup bees. (300+ bees)
18 mites counted
Divide by 3 =
6 mites per 100 bees
Multiply by 1.3, factor for sugar vs alcohol
6 x 1.3 = 7.8 mites per 100 bees. Call it 8
This example is 8 mp100 = 8 percent. Infestation and contagion. Attack level. Get out the hard treatment arsenals.
Example2:
Sugar shake
1 cup of bees (600+ bees)
12 mites counted
Divide by 6 =
2 mites per 100 bees
Multiply by 1.3, factor for sugar vs alcohol
2 x 1.3 = 2.6 mites per 100 bees. Call it 3
This example is 3 mp100 = 3 percent. Control and manage level. Use whatever IPM, soft treatment, or treatment free method of your preference.
Post by: blackforest beekeeper on November 01, 2018, 04:36:11 am
Yes. Number of mites per 100 bees = percent.
Example1:
Sugar shake method
1/2 cup bees. (300+ bees)
18 mites counted
Divide by 3 =
6 mites per 100 bees
Multiply by 1.3, factor for sugar vs alcohol
6 x 1.3 = 7.8 mites per 100 bees. Call it 8
This example is 8 mp100 = 8 percent. Infestation and contagion. Attack level. Get out the hard treatment arsenals.
Example2:
Sugar shake
1 cup of bees (600+ bees)
12 mites counted
Divide by 6 =
2 mites per 100 bees
Multiply by 1.3, factor for sugar vs alcohol
2 x 1.3 = 2.6 mites per 100 bees. Call it 3
This example is 3 mp100 = 3 percent. Control and manage level. Use whatever IPM, soft treatment, or treatment free method of your preference.
thanks, HoneyPump!
yes, it is more accurate, I am sure. So if necessary....sometimes one might have to be fast.
As for the factor of 1.3: I found a link....
https://bienenkunde.uni-hohenheim.de/fileadmin/einrichtungen/bienenkunde/Varroa/Brunnemann-Stubbe_2011_db-ADIZ-IF_Bienenprobe_mit_Puderzucker_-_Neue_schonende_Varroa-Befallsmessung.pdf
without having to be able to read it: look at the graph on the 2nd page. Shows counts comparing alcohol-wash and sugar-roll. So they seem to be pretty congruent.
The factor 1.3 in my eyes allows for fault on behalf of the applier: powder-sugar not dry enough, circumstances not dry enough, bees in the cup for too long (start producing moisture).
so my little slight-of-hand calculations weren`t so bad comparing natural drop-down and one of these lab-like-methods. I`d be applying treatment soon with aournd 5%, too.
Couple years ago or so there was some talk of a carbondioxide-method, don`t know what became of that one.
@HTP: I guess You don`t sample every hive? Do You do something like Ian Steppler?:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6osr7PNdN2M
Post by: TheHoneyPump on November 01, 2018, 02:05:21 pm
Yes.
If you have a few hives, less than 10, just go ahead and sample every hive. If you have more or many, then setup your sample size based on statistics tools. Do not be random about how many hives to check. Use statistics to put some science and confidence behind the number of colonies you will sample.
Not everyone likes math nor has any idea of exactly what I just said actually means. So Google is your friend and partner with this. Look for, search, - statistics sample size - or - sample size calculator -. You will likely find some easy reads and also be able to find some simple tools that allow you to online calculate the sample size (number of hives) you need to check to have confidence that the results will represent what you have across your apiary.