Author Topic: Queen cell questions (Read 2962 times)

Kris^ · « **on:** July 20, 2006, 12:32:41 am »

This past Sunday I inspected the larger of my two hive started from apckages this year, and it seemed it might be queenless. No sign of my marked queen, no eggs, no uncapped brood, and very little remaining capped brood. I took a frame of some eggs and brood from the adjacent hive and put it in. I figured if the hive was in fact queenless, they'd start drawing queen cells.

Today I looked in the hive and when I pulled the test frame, I counted over 30 new queen cells lined along the bottom of both sides of the frame. Some still uncapped but the rest had apparently just been capped, lighter in color and a little smaller than I've seen before.

Normally I'd be elated, but I've been racking my brain over this. I think I'm ok, but timing is my concern. I know I saw old posts on this, but I can't seem to find them. Here's my concern: if these queen cells were just capped today, they would be at day 8, meaning they were likely laid on the 12th (counting back to day 1). They would have hatched on the 15th, or maybe late on the 14th. Meaning they could have been 24 to 36 hours old when I transfered them to the queenless hive on the 16th. Too old?

This counting is driving me crazy, and I find conflicting info from my books and websites. MB posted a quote from an article some time ago indicating that the bees won't raise queens from larvae that are no good for it. True?

The frame I put in was newly drawn from a starter strip, and the eggs and youngest brood were on the bottom just-drawn edge. The brood along the edge was very small; I could barely see them laying in the bottom of the milky fluid in their cells, although other brood on the frame was bigger.

Am I overthinking this and just frustrating myself? And if it's alright -- what am I going to do with 30+ queen cells??? Would be that my earlier attempt to deliberately raise queens had been as successful!

-- Kris

bassman1977 · « **Reply #1 on:** July 20, 2006, 12:43:33 am »

I don't have the times but from what I understand, the bees can not make a queen from eggs that are older than 72 hours. It's too old. With eggs younger than this, the royal jelly producers will fill the cell until the egg rises and then they eventually create the peanut looking cell for ol' queeny. Larve is well past the stage of doing anything with as far as queens go, but if they are not drone larve, they will benefit the colony by keeping the hive populated once they emerge.

I hope that answers part of your question. Like I said, I don't have the life cycle dates in front of me and I need to call it a night.

BTW, that's an impressive amount of queen cells. My splits may have had 3 or 4 at the most.

Also, if you haven't already, read this post: It might be of some help to you.

http://www.beemaster.com/beebbs/viewtopic.php?t=5810

Brian D. Bray · « **Reply #2 on:** July 20, 2006, 01:36:32 am »

The egg stage is three days. As long as the bees have eggs within that 72 hour window they can grow a vibrant queen.

The reason for the abundance of queen cells along the bottom is, as you rightly noticed, that the newest eggs were on the outer edge of the brood frame and the comb wasn't fully drawn out. So in oder to make up for the possibility of runted queens not being satisfactory the hive made more and may will prune the queen cells they find marginal themsevles as the process develops.

I they don't I would take it upon myself to cutout all but 2-4 myself of the best looking cells. Longer is better in this case.

Finsky · « **Reply #3 on:** July 20, 2006, 01:51:20 am »

Hi Kris, now you have opportunity to raise queens. Change good larvae into cells and you get a lot of queens.

mark · « **Reply #4 on:** July 21, 2006, 08:35:13 pm »

is the adjacent hive's queen one that you would want to requeen other hives with. you could start some mating nucs to hold queens for other hives that need them. iirc you still have all italians don't you?

Kris^ · « **Reply #5 on:** July 22, 2006, 12:33:45 am »

Yes, the adjacent hive both came from the same package supplier (Rossman) and both have been doing well. They are both italians, as are 8 of my other hives. Two are Minn. Hygienics, which I guess are really just a different breed of italians.

I've been thinking hard about filling one of my four-way nuc boxes (2 frames each section) with some of the queen cells. Fresh out of drawn deep comb, though, so I'll have to swap some frames with foundation in my other hives. No real problem, but I'll have to make some more deep frames, too. :(

I suppose if I do it it'll have to be done by Tuesday, Wednesday at the latest, right? (day 14 -- 15). The nice thing is that all these cells are nicely spaced apart and not webbed, although they are located on both sides of the comb. But there is a bottom wire running very close to the cells. I could cut the wire and take it along with the comb attached to the cells. Would cutting the wire cause undue tension on the remaining comb that could distort it and damage the remaining cells?

Any suggestions on how best to cut a few cells out and mount them to a frame without damaging the cells on one side? My primary desire is to have the existing hive requeened, and the last thing I want to do is screw up the whole frame.

-- Kris

Brian D. Bray · « **Reply #6 on:** July 22, 2006, 01:14:47 am »

At this late date in the summer I would be reluctant to go into the queen rearing business even if it is for my own hives. Rearing queens takes some preperation, can be very time intensive, and not for the faint of heart of inexperienced.

I would concentrate on getting the hive you have up and running again and then, after reading several books on the matter, look at raising your own replacement queens next year.

Better 1 or 2 strong hives than 4-5 marginal hives. I'm a beekeeper not a bee nurse.

Kris^ · « **Reply #7 on:** August 13, 2006, 10:37:13 am »

Out of an abundance of caution, I decided to leave all the cells in the hive and let them raise their own replacement. On the 30th I looked inside and all the cells had been opened, but saw no queen. I didn't look too deeply, though. When I looked yesterday, I quickly located the queen by searching around a frame of eggs I found.

What I don't understand is where the original queen went. It was sudden, and she must have stopped laying before she disappeared, because she left no viable eggs when she went. I'm inclined to think she was injured somehow, and struggled to just survive before finally expiring. Thankfully, I discovered the problem before a worker started laying.

-- Kris

Brian D. Bray · « **Reply #8 on:** August 13, 2006, 10:51:02 am »

A queen will stop laying up to ten days or two weeks before swarming in order to slim down and be less awkward in flight--like a virgin she is then smaller and harder to see.
During supercedure of a queen the workers will often kill the existing queen once the supercedure cells have been capped.
In either case the hive can go up to a month between egg production and if an unobservant beekeeper cuts out the cells in the second senario he is queenless.