Why do I need 4 medium boxes to overwinter a hive?

[TwoHoneys]

Most people say that I'll need 4 medium boxes to successfully overwinter a hive.

But why is that? If I can overwinter various-sized nucs composed of either 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 or 8 frames, why can't I overwinter hives of 2 medium boxes?

I ask because I have a number of first-year hives that grew to only 2 medium boxes, and I wonder if I can overwinter those.

My options are

1. overwinter as is
2. combine a number of these 2-box hives into stronger colonies
3. reduce the boxes to 2 or 3 nucs, introduce mated queens to the nucs, and overwinter those.

I have a number of mated queens on hand, so I could easily go the nucs-with-mated-queen route.

-Liz

[Finski]

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Answer is very simple. You need not.

Medium box have 15 kg honey . 2 box has 30 kg, but in boath cases frames have unknown measure polle.

If bees have real brood break, they manage half year with 30 kg sugar. If they are brooding all the time, they consume 15 in one month. When pollen is finish, they must stop brooding. But the colony is after that in very bad condition.

Winter cluster will be same size as brood area in late summer. Colony needs only that size room for wintering.

Here normal hive consume in autumn only one kg food in month. I
In Spring the food consumpton increases greatly because they rise cäuster temperature from 23 C to 33 C. Heat leak is bigger then. Brood need food too.  so short of food is often possible in spring.

If you have a  simple hive wall, it consumes 50 % more food than insulated.

So in polyhive you need 20 kg winter food and in simple wall hive 30 kg.

I have seem a grafp of anatolian bee hive, which consumed with speed 80 kg winter food and at same time Italian consumed 30 kg. And anatolian did not have brood.

[mikecva]

I do not overwinter nucs here as we might get several 3" snows or one or two 3 foot snows where I can not get to the hives. I use all mediums on my hives with 3 mediums for the brood. I end up with 75-90lbs of honey going into winter and have yet to loss a colony (knock on wood)  -Mike

[annette]

I usually winter with 3 mediums. 3 mediums are equal to 2 deeps. But we don't have the kind of winter you have out there, although we have a couple of months of 20-30 degrees at night.

[FRAMEshift]

Two 8-frame mediums are equal to one 10-frame deep.  That is sufficient to overwinter in North Carolina and probably in southern Ohio too.

[derekm]

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Answer is very simple. You need not.

Medium box have 15 kg honey . 2 box has 30 kg, but in boath cases frames have unknown measure polle.

If bees have real brood break, they manage half year with 30 kg sugar. If they are brooding all the time, they consume 15 in one month. When pollen is finish, they must stop brooding. But the colony is after that in very bad condition.

Winter cluster will be same size as brood area in late summer. Colony needs only that size room for wintering.

Here normal hive consume in autumn only one kg food in month. I
In Spring the food consumpton increases greatly because they rise cäuster temperature from 23 C to 33 C. Heat leak is bigger then. Brood need food too.  so short of food is often possible in spring.

If you have a  simple hive wall, it consumes 50 % more food than insulated.

So in polyhive you need 20 kg winter food and in simple wall hive 30 kg.

I have seem a grafp of anatolian bee hive, which consumed with speed 80 kg winter food and at same time Italian consumed 30 kg. And anatolian did not have brood.

more insulation less food needed - bees obey the laws of thermodynamics... A 3/4" wooden hive is almost no insulation or To put it another way my maths and physics agree with Finski's experience.

[FRAMEshift]

A 3/4" wooden hive is almost no insulation or To put it another way my maths and physics agree with Finski's experience.

Finski has VERY dry winter air and I don't think he has a problem with condensation.  In most of the US,  winter ventilation is important.  General insulation is not very effective if you are venting warm air along with the moisture.  I think the best use of insulation is on the top because that raises the temperature of the inside top surface above the temperature of the inside of the sides.  Then, if you have condensation, it will be on the sides where it will run down rather than on the top where it will drip on the cluster.

Of course, if your insulation is so good that you never reach the dew point inside the hive, then there is no problem.

[derekm]

A 3/4" wooden hive is almost no insulation or To put it another way my maths and physics agree with Finski's experience.

Finski has VERY dry winter air and I don't think he has a problem with condensation.  In most of the US,  winter ventilation is important.  General insulation is not very effective if you are venting warm air along with the moisture.  I think the best use of insulation is on the top because that raises the temperature of the inside top surface above the temperature of the inside of the sides.  Then, if you have condensation, it will be on the sides where it will run down rather than on the top where it will drip on the cluster.

Of course, if your insulation is so good that you never reach the dew point inside the hive, then there is no problem.

A 40mm  polyhive is 8 times the insulation of a wooden hive, a 50mm PU hive is 15 times.

I/m from the UK not renowned for dry winter air.

[TwoHoneys]

I think I'm getting the message...we're talking heat loss from the boxes. And stores used/calories burned to keep inside temps regulated.

I need to insulate the nucs with Styrofoam or something like it (while also allowing them to release condensation). So THAT's why everyone keeps all their nucs snuggled up with other nucs or on top of larger hives.

-Liz

[Finski]

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Sorry Frameshift. You speak about matter where you have not much experince. Your knowledge about insulation and condensation is too on impractical level.

Basic things about wintering:

- you MUST have a bee stock which react at right time on end of summer and stop brood rearing.

-  the hive must be feeded full with syrup. Otherwise bees do not cap stores.

- press bees into small space. It keeps the interior warmer and condensation and dew point moves outside the hive.

- if you have a mesh floor, you neet not other ventilation.
   If you have a solid bottom, you need a finger size upper entrance to lead moist respiration air off.

I have seen that if snow cover is thick, it keeps the hive moist and bees are in worse condition than hives which have not snow cover over the entrance.

(my winter is not dry. Our snow rains, melts partly and rain again and melts)

- wind protection is recommended.

- wall and inner cover insulation saves energy and winter food.
-  It keeps interior warm and bees may move and reshape continuously the cluster.

 - the inner cover have the best insulation.  the coldest surfaces of hive catch the condensation water. Side walls make condensation and water drills out.

- the more space the easier moisture condensates on cold food frame surfaces and forms mould .

- the heat difference between out and in keeps the hive dry = relative moisture/ water content in different temperatures.

- in spring the colony rises its cluster temperature and moisture problems are away, but the bigger food consumption (4-5 fold) may lead to starving to death. The colony will not live many hours when food is finish.

- in a shelter where is no wind but the temp is near freezing point, bees get nosema and are badly ill. So outside wintering is better on 60 latitude than a shelter.

[Finski]

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If you install insulating board for winter, one inch board is enough.
Keep douple insulation on upper cover

and  DON'T LEAD THE MOISTURE INSIDE THE OUTER COVER. Lead it straight out via wall hole.

20 kg sugar forms almost 10 litres water via respiration.

Sugar + oxygen  =  carbon diokside + water

[Michael Bush]

2 deeps = 3 mediums = 4 eight frame mediums.

[FRAMEshift]

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Sorry Frameshift. You speak about matter where you have not much experince. Your knowledge about insulation and condensation is too on impractical level.

Oh, that's probably true.  :-D  It's not as cold here as in Finland.

(my winter is not dry. Our snow rains, melts partly and rain again and melts)

Where are you in Finland?  When I lived in Umea, it was really dry after the Baltic froze over.

 - the inner cover have the best insulation.  the coldest surfaces of hive catch the condensation water. Side walls make condensation and water drills out.

That's what I said.  You want the top to be warmer than the sides.  Not so impractical as you thought?

- the heat difference between out and in keeps the hive dry = relative moisture/ water content in different temperatures.

Yes, that is a good point.

[BlueBee]

Sugar + oxygen  =  carbon dioxide + water

Finski knows his insulation!  I will make one small change to his equation though.  

Sugar + oxygen = carbon dioxide + water + HEAT!

If the bees are in an insulated box, they don’t need to generate as much heat themselves since the box traps in a lot of their heat.  Looking at the equation, we can see if they don't need to make as much heat, that also translates into less sugar consumed and less water is generated.  These are all good things  :)

[derekm]

i'm going with 2" of PU which equals 3 " of styrofoam.  This also brings other changes
In the 2" PU nuc from mating to needing a full size hive was 4-5 weeks with Buckfast bees.


To prevent condensation you need enough insulation so that the bee can heat the whole hive. Then a small colder spot on one side can act a dehumidifier
In this country the average summer temp is only 14C (day and night april august). average winter temp 6C.  

in this country A full brood box in a wooden hive will burn the equivalent of 100kg of honey keeping it warm during the summer. and  the cluster burns 18kg in the winter.

[Jim134]

2 deeps = 3 mediums = 4 eight frame mediums.

or 3 eight frame deeps



              BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)

[BeeV]

To prevent condensation you need enough insulation so that the bee can heat the whole hive. Then a small colder spot on one side can act a dehumidifier

Thats an interesting thought. A small hole in the insulation would cause the condensation to form there, then run down the side and out. Have I got that right?

[Tommyt]

TwoHoneys
 Mike Palmer wrote a lot of good info on wintering Nuc's He's from Vermont
I think you may like his info especially since you said you have Queens
 I am sending you a PM to the article

Tommyt
I edited to show the first entry of his article
 
Michael Bush has asked that I participate in a discussuin on "Wintering Nucs."

I do winter nucs here in the northern Champlain Valley of Vermont and New York. More than 400 this winter. This is sometning that my good friend and sometimes mentor, Kirk Webster, has talked me into. I say talked me into, because at first I was not convinced. I mean, if my production colonies couldn't winter very well, how could 4 frame nucs. Anyway, I did give it a half hearted try...about 15 years ago

[derekm]

To prevent condensation you need enough insulation so that the bee can heat the whole hive. Then a small colder spot on one side can act a dehumidifier

Thats an interesting thought. A small hole in the insulation would cause the condensation to form there, then run down the side and out. Have I got that right?

only works in plastic hives and only if the cold spot is small and can drain out easily and rapidly. Otherwise you get damp and mould.