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Author Topic: Mating Nuc  (Read 9288 times)

Offline Waveeater

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Mating Nuc
« on: January 07, 2018, 10:54:04 am »
A question for some of the more experienced beekeepers. I'm going to attempt to raise my own queens this year and was wondering if I would be better served to build two or three frame mating nukes or use an existing box divided up like some of the queen castles I see and read about. I have the lumber so that is not an issue. By the way these will be medium frame hives, as I currently use all 8 frame medium equipment. Any tips or advice would greatly be appreciated. I apologize if this topic has already been discussed in another forum. God Bless.

Offline iddee

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Re: Mating Nuc
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2018, 11:54:55 am »
Everyone will have their own opinion, but mine is individual boxes. Combined units are good for harvesting queens, but bad for growing the mating nuc into a full hive. Individual boxes work well for both.
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Offline cao

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Re: Mating Nuc
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2018, 12:11:20 pm »
Everyone will have their own opinion, but mine is individual boxes.

My opinion is the same.  I've tried raising nucs side by side in the same box.  I just don't like them that close.  If you have problem with one it will affect the other.

Offline Waveeater

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Re: Mating Nuc
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2018, 06:48:11 pm »
I've seen plans for two frame nucs for deeps. Should I build 3 frame boxes since I'm using medium frames?

Offline iddee

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Re: Mating Nuc
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2018, 07:00:07 pm »
Since you are using 8 frame mediums for hives, I would build 4 frame boxes for nucs. 2 frame boxes are only good if you are harvesting the queens and not growing the nucs into hives.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Mating Nuc
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2018, 09:56:36 pm »
I have tried several types of queen castles. 10 frame deeps split into 3 nucs, 10 frame mediums split into 3 nucs, and the last one, a 10 frame medium split into 4 mini nucs. They all failed. They usually seem to move into one of the nucs and then move out all together.  Some of them get robbed out.
If I tried again, I would use LJ's idea. He found that new queen or queen less hives survived much better if they are placed over a queen right hive with a double screen separating them. The Queen right pheromones help protect the nucs.
Jim
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Offline minz

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Re: Mating Nuc
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2018, 11:34:49 pm »
I do the mating queen castles. Divided into two frames. As I do inspections and find a couple of queen cells I just put one frame and a partial honey frame into the QC (tape over the hole). At the end I take the castle home or to a yard and take off the tape. I have had good mating success. WHEN / IF the queen gets mated out and is laying I move her to a nuc or if the one on the other side does not I pull the divider and make it into a 4 frame. I use deeps so not the same.
Raising queens in a 4 frame is a lot of bees and comb. You are to just about a split at that point.
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Offline little john

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Re: Mating Nuc
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2018, 01:00:18 pm »
My story is the same as those who've failed with divided boxes. A few years back I made eight 6-frame boxes, to be run either as 6-frames or divided into 2x 3-frames. (full-size frames, 9" deep)
I have never once had success with both sides when in the divided format, yet two 5-frame stand-alone nuc boxes side-by-side - no problems at all.  Guess I must be doing something wrong, as many people swear by the use of divided boxes.

Still, I ain't gonna give up - this coming year I'll be trying divided boxes with half-sized frames (for queen-mating, as opposed to nuc-raising), but as Jim said - with the boxes positioned on top of queen-right colonies.  Let's see if that set-up works ...
LJ
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Offline Waveeater

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Re: Mating Nuc
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2018, 01:35:19 pm »
First off, thank you all for the replies. My goal is to have some mated queens on hand for emergency situations or re-queening in the Fall for older queens. (if I can keep up with them). Having said that, I believe I will build some 2 frame nucs and see how it plays out. I will report back as the year goes if I'm successful or not.

Online Michael Bush

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Re: Mating Nuc
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2018, 02:50:53 pm »
I have a lot of queen castles I bought from Brushy Mt that work well.  I bought deeps and cut them down to mediums so I could do nucs with two medium frames.  I've built my own before.  I find I need to cut the dividers into the walls or a queen will often get to the other side.  The Brushy Mt castles have this done for me already.
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Offline texanbelchers

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Re: Mating Nuc
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2018, 03:30:01 pm »
At the moment I've decided to standardize all of my equipment on 8-frame medium.  Definite trade-offs on all fronts with that decision.

I had major issues with multi-colony boxes, too.  Instead of divided boxes, I use a standard box with a follower board.  This allows me to grow the hive space as necessary.  It takes more boxes, but the intent is to use the boxes for the colony after mating anyway.

Offline little john

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Re: Mating Nuc
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2018, 06:54:52 pm »
First off, thank you all for the replies. My goal is to have some mated queens on hand for emergency situations or re-queening in the Fall for older queens. (if I can keep up with them). Having said that, I believe I will build some 2 frame nucs and see how it plays out. I will report back as the year goes if I'm successful or not.

It might be worth considering 3 frames instead of 2, as 3 frames will give you twice the effective brood area.  No, I haven't been smoking the magic weed (!).

In my experience bees much prefer to occupy cells on either side of the galleries formed between combs and have a tendency to ignore the outer sides of outer combs.  So 2 combs will provide one gallery or 2 comb sides, whereas 3 combs will provide two galleries, or 4 comb sides - i.e. twice as much.  Just a thought.

Yes - keep us posted as to results ...
LJ
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Offline iddee

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Re: Mating Nuc
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2018, 09:01:07 pm »
+2 for LittleJohn. And that's with deeps. With mediums,I still like 4.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline Waveeater

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Re: Mating Nuc
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2018, 12:09:52 pm »
Well, maybe I should just build a 4 frame nuc and if I want to use it as a 2 or 3 frame mating nuc then I can block the dead space. If I want to use it as a 4 frame nuc then bingo. That would solve the problem of having to build different size feeders, etc. It's amazing what happens when you get a bunch of smart people talking about a particular subject. Now I know someone out there sees a down side to this idea, so let's have it.  :wink:

Offline iddee

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Re: Mating Nuc
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2018, 12:49:17 pm »
Cut 2 pieces of styrofoam the size of a frame. Start with 2 frames and 2 sheets of foam. Remove a sheet as needed.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline awootton

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Re: Mating Nuc
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2018, 01:21:35 am »
I really like individual 3 frame nucs (D Coates design) for mating. I made these after trying 5 frame nucs with a divider to make 2 x 2.  Like several of the other posters here I found it difficult to keep the colonies separate and I just prefer dealing with a single colony. I also like the extra space of 3 frames which can be 1 frame brood, 1 frame honey and 1 of foundation and seems a good compromise between being too small to allow expansion and being so big it takes ages to find queens.  Although I mostly use WSP frames (similar to US mediums) I made the nucs full depth.  Most other folks use deeps and they want nucs on deep frames so I have to run both sizes (which is a pain). I don't often have problems with burr comb in the extra space below the frames as mating nucs are relatively weak.

Offline Waveeater

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Re: Mating Nuc
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2018, 09:34:29 am »
Thank you sir for that info. I'm currently building some 3 and 4 frame nucs. By the end of this year I should have an idea on which one I like best.

Offline Waveeater

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Re: Mating Nuc
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2018, 02:19:36 pm »
I made several 3 and 4 frame (medium frame) mating nucs. I have them painted several different colors and have 3/4 inch hole entrance on the front near the bottom. Should I add a hole anywhere for ventilation or leave the rest of it sealed up. The bottom board is solid and nailed on with a removable top. I know the brood needs to stay warm but I was just curious if it would overheat if I carry these over until the end of June or into July.

Offline jtcmedic

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Re: Mating Nuc
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2018, 04:51:41 pm »
I am trying 5 frame nucs  with frame feeder making room for 3 frames will find out on the 19th if it worked

Offline Waveeater

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Re: Mating Nuc
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2018, 06:33:02 pm »
Good luck to you and let us know how it works out.

Offline cao

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Re: Mating Nuc
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2018, 08:45:39 pm »
My 5 frame nucs have bottom boards that have an entrance that is 3/8 by 1".  No other holes.  They will beard during the hot part of the summer.  By then they are usually 2-3 boxes tall.  I am more concerned with robbing with nucs(the reason for the small entrance).  I would say yours will do fine with the one hole.

Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Mating Nuc
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2018, 08:52:27 pm »
I have added a hole on the back of some of my nucs that only have a small hole as covered it with screen. I added the screen because I also use them for swarm traps and the bees have over heated during moves.
Jim
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
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Offline Waveeater

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Re: Mating Nuc
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2018, 10:07:05 pm »
That's what I was wondering Jim, since I only have a small front entrance and everything else is sealed tight whether I should put a small hole at the top in the back and cover it with hardware cloth just for ventilation purposes. I was  just curious what others who have used small mating nucs like this have done. Thanks.

Offline iddee

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Re: Mating Nuc
« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2018, 10:37:49 pm »
Notice Jim said they over heated during moves. I'm guessing while they were screened in and couldn't get out. Don't box them in in a hot automobile and they won't over heat.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline jtcmedic

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Re: Mating Nuc
« Reply #24 on: April 10, 2018, 06:38:46 am »
Being in Florida ,and will see how it works, but made Coates nuc with hole on back with mesh and had them overheat, I made sbb on my next batch.

Offline jtcmedic

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Re: Mating Nuc
« Reply #25 on: April 17, 2018, 07:40:59 pm »
Of the 3 frame nuc i made i was 4 out 5.

Offline Waveeater

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Re: Mating Nuc
« Reply #26 on: April 20, 2018, 09:59:01 pm »
Update. I placed capped queen cells along with their frame of bees in 3 of my mating nucs on April 13th. Added honey and pollen frame. Checked back the next day and all three queens were out but many of the bees were gone. I added a frame to each of open and capped brood and the nurse bees at the direction of Wally. Checked back today after last nights freeze and all three frames of brood were dead. The bottom of the box was covered in dead larve. Cleaned it all out and added another frame of larve and capped brood. (trying again). Observed the queens in two of the three. One was pipping very loudly and had many of her bees excited and climbing all over her. I first thought they were balling her but they weren't. I suppose it just got to cold for that few bees to keep the brood warm enough. More later.

Offline beepro

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Re: Mating Nuc
« Reply #27 on: April 24, 2018, 01:42:04 am »
In a case like this I would use a power strip to supply 3 of the 100 watt small ceramic reptile light bulb to
provide some heat on the bottom to keep the brood warm.  This will allow the bees to emerge without having the
chilled broods.   

Offline TheHoneyPump

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Re: Mating Nuc
« Reply #28 on: April 25, 2018, 05:41:18 pm »
I.M.H.O. aka merely Opinion.

1st:   Individual boxes, definitely.  It seems, at least to me, that multiple nuc colonies in the same box with dividers just do not do as well.  Could be a variety of reasons.  One that I have no credible recorded data for but makes most sense is simply bee pheromones.  When all in one box with dividers it is near impossible to not have their scents mix.  What affects one colony tends to affect the rest.  If one of the queens stinks or perfumes particularly well, she repels or draws more bees from close by; affecting the other colonies in the box. Having them in one box that matches the rest of our equipment is certainly convenient. However, if you put your true bee-man hat on and reconsider the great lengths we go through to keep colonies apart when doing hive manipulates dealing with problems; such as combining colonies, introducing a new queen, halting robbing, disease control, etc. ... the Bee Senses should be clearly telling us to keep them in separate boxes.  Those separate boxes can be placed very close together, but each is best as a stand alone, not integral to the one next door. For convenience absolutely the dimensions of these separate boxes can be made so that when placed close against each other they fit onto or within our other equipment.

2nd:  Number of frames.  Depends on your intent.
   - If just mating and harvesting queens for immediate use (eg new splits, sale, or donate), 2 frames of any size, including the minis.  Soon as she's proven, cage, bank, and distribute.
   - If keeping a queen in reserve to emergency re-queen, 3 frame of the standard you are using in your main colonies (eg: deep).  Keep her primed and mildly active. Harvest brood weekly so she's active and always has some room.  When needed, cage her and take the brood frame with her.  Introduce to the new hive with candied cage hole, on HER frame of brood.
   - If keeping a colony in reserve to replace a lagging failing hive or dead out, then it is a 5 frame of the standard you are using in your main colonies (eg: deep) or a full box with a follower board.  Use the 5 frame to combine and take over a failing hive. Move the 5 into a standard box, take apart the failing hive leaving the bottom box on the bottom board. Shake all the old hive bees into that bottom box.  Place newspaper on with a few slits in it.  Put the new box (5fnuc) ontop. Put the rest of the hive back together.  Use the nuc to re-populate a dead out.

Hope that helps!
« Last Edit: April 25, 2018, 06:32:12 pm by TheHoneyPump »
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Offline Waveeater

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Re: Mating Nuc
« Reply #29 on: May 16, 2018, 10:43:41 am »
Update: Ok, of the original 3 (3 frame) mating nucs, I now have 2 out of 3 with Laying Queens. The 3rd Queen disappeared. I suppose she never made it back from her mating flight. I have started 2 more to try and get at least a 3rd laying queen. More to come on that. I used a different method on one of them where I laid a small piece of comb with a few eggs on it's side on top of the frames and then inverted another nuc box over the top of them. We will see if they draw a Queen cell from it.

I have 3 swarms that I have caught this year so far. 2 are probably from my hives and the other is not. The two swarms from mine have fat queens who appear older and are probably overwintered queens from last year. The other is a small queen but she is laying. My plan was to re-queen my swarms this year in the fall with a new queen (from my mating nucs) so that if they make it thru the winter I would hopefully have a young queen to start next spring. How do others feel about this method or what would you do different.

Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Mating Nuc
« Reply #30 on: May 16, 2018, 05:25:20 pm »
Wave,
Our bee inspector supervisor has talked about doing just that, requeening in the fall.
Jim
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
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Offline Waveeater

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Re: Mating Nuc
« Reply #31 on: May 27, 2018, 11:26:07 pm »
Well the mating nucs are doing well so far. I went thru 12 today and located mated queens in half. The others have queens but I did not find eggs. here's the question. I have several swarms that I have captured and there doing well but I believe they all have queens that are from last year. If I'm going to replace them with some of these newly mated queens should I do it soon or wait until later in the year.

Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Mating Nuc
« Reply #32 on: May 28, 2018, 08:33:56 am »
I?m not familiar with your Flow season but I would expect you have more coming. The older queens are more likely to swarm than the young queens. Why not make nucs for the old queens with their bees and put the new queens in the hive with their bees, to protect them until the bees adjust to the new queens. This way you will have backups for going through winter. You will probably have to keep a close eye on the nucs and keep taking brood away from to keep them from swarming.
Jim
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Offline Waveeater

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Re: Mating Nuc
« Reply #33 on: June 04, 2018, 07:55:20 pm »
UPdate:  Well I finally have mated queens that are laying in all the 3 and 4 frame nucs except for one. And she flew off last week while I was looking at her and has not returned. I gave them a frame with some eggs from another, and they have a queen cell now so we will see. Going to give them a little longer to see what kind of pattern they lay, and then start replacing some of last years queens that I caught in swarms over the last month.

I will say that you really have to keep an eye on these smaller nucs because they will build up fast. My first nuc of the year has graduated to a five frame nuc, and is about ready to go in a regular eight frame box.

Offline Bush_84

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Re: Mating Nuc
« Reply #34 on: June 05, 2018, 11:31:20 am »
I built my mini mating Nucs so they could be supered. That way I could just stack them on up and take boxes off to split when needed.
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Also please excuse the typos.  My iPad autocorrect can be brutal.

Offline Waveeater

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Re: Mating Nuc
« Reply #35 on: June 12, 2018, 04:56:52 pm »
That's a good idea, I actually done a few of mine like that also. On another note I was thinking about using a push in cage to introduce these new queens into some hives this fall, should I use the push in cage on a frame from the queen mating Nuc and introduce her that way. would this help the other Hive except her or create fighting due to the outside bees?

Offline Bush_84

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Re: Mating Nuc
« Reply #36 on: June 14, 2018, 07:13:08 pm »
I?m not sure if one way is better than the other.

I wanted to mention one more quick pro about stackable mating Nucs. They create a nice funnel for stocking the mating Nucs. I found that shaking in some box, scooping them with measuring cup, and dumping them into the hive to be chaos. Bees everywhere. Nobody really wanting to go where I wanted. Bees constantly crawling out of the hive. So what I did this year was stack two boxes above the nuc I wanted to populate. I?d find a regular deep frame of nurse bees, lower them down into the boxes, and shake them in. The mating nuc is already filled with the frames I want and queen cell. So there?s no putting with that after. Bees naturally go right down into the nuc. I can simply just put the lid on and walk away. I install packages in this fashion as well.
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Also please excuse the typos.  My iPad autocorrect can be brutal.

Offline Waveeater

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Re: Mating Nuc
« Reply #37 on: June 14, 2018, 10:00:46 pm »
Sounds like a plan for sure.