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Author Topic: Winter Ventilation for a Nuc  (Read 11129 times)

Offline Duane

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Re: Winter Ventilation for a Nuc
« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2015, 12:35:22 pm »
I still say that what the link gave about how a wood drying kiln works is totally different than how a beehive works.  Now the result may or may not be the same do to complex systems involved which may differ in each. 

While under some circumstances, observation does influence what is being observed, are you saying there is no way to determine whether the humidity rises or falls in the hive?  Is there not a way to go about determining it without affecting the determination?

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Question: "Does moist air rise - yes or no ?"
I don't think that would be the question to ask based upon the kiln drying link.  It's based upon the phase change of a liquid imparting heat to that being dried.  And it seems to emphasize it's not the "moist air" that's under consideration.  So I don't think that's the correct question for kiln drying.  It may be for a beehive.  But it's not the same process.

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Question: "Is it best to have an upper or lower entrance to ventilate a hive ?"
Answer: "Either will work. There is no 'best'."
Sure, either "works".  But we can't determine whether there's a "best" without testing.

In crop breeding, there is no gene for "yield".  But there are for kernels, head size, pest resistance, etc.  All of those factors produce yield.  Rather than selecting for each individual component, breeders have great luck in selecting for yield. 

So with the hive, while there may be all kind of complex systems going on, even some unknown, cannot we find out whether a top entrance or a bottom entrance results in equal humidity or one having a better reduction of total humidity in the hive?  Why theorize when we can find out?

How would one go about determining humidity levels in a hive, top or bottom entrance, without affecting the observation?

Offline Eric Bosworth

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Re: Winter Ventilation for a Nuc
« Reply #21 on: November 28, 2015, 07:37:52 am »
"It is the increased DENSITY of the moist air which results from evaporation which causes it to descend.

That is why a DYNAMIC evaporative system such as wood-drying or nectar drying cannot be directly compared to those other situations where evaporation is NOT taking place. In those other situations where heat is simply being applied, then warm moist air will certainly rise."

Ok... by winter how much evaporation of nectar occurs? By then honey is capped. Do bees sweat in the cluster causing evaporation? In the summer or early fall I would agree that perhaps bee hives are a lot like wood kilns. In the winter I am not convinced. I will admit I have not yet finished reading the thread but if the theory is moisture from evaporation then it needs to evaporate from someplace. In the winter months there isn't a moisture source to evaporate. I would argue that the general air humidity is heated in the hive it rises, hits the cold top of the hive and condenses... or escapes out the top entrance. So unless you live in a dry climate the other method to prevent the problem is seal the hive. .. how do they breath at that point?

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Offline little john

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Re: Winter Ventilation for a Nuc
« Reply #22 on: November 28, 2015, 07:42:40 am »
I still say that what the link gave about how a wood drying kiln works is totally different than how a beehive works.  Now the result may or may not be the same do to complex systems involved which may differ in each. 

Quote
Question: "Does moist air rise - yes or no ?"
I don't think that would be the question to ask based upon the kiln drying link. It's based upon the phase change of a liquid imparting heat to that being dried.

I don't know from where you've got this idea that superheated steam - with it's phase-change etc - is the central principle of kiln-drying.

From the NACA-report-65.pdf (from an earlier link) p.14 :

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METHODS OF SECURING CIRCULATION.

Pressure and superheated steam treatments are not suitable for airplane material: and the vacuum treatment, though suitable, is hardly practicable. It will, therefore, suffice to consider only atmospheric pressure treatments.

In general the circulation is produced in three ways:
(1) By external draught or ventilation, where the air is taken in from the outside, conditioned. passed through the kiln, and allowed to escape to the outside again.
(2) By recirculating the air within the kiln itself and removing the excess moisture by condensation.
(3) By forcing external air through the lumber by means of a fan or blower.

Combinations of these methods may also be used.

LJ
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Offline little john

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Re: Winter Ventilation for a Nuc
« Reply #23 on: November 28, 2015, 07:53:46 am »
Eric - ALL moist air has been generated by evaporation at some point in it's history. Evaporation IS the phase-change from liquid to gas - there is no other way of water entering the gaseous state.

What become relevant, is what happens to that moist air after it is generated: if it meets something warm as it descends, then some of it will undoubtedly ascend as a result. The remainder will continue to descend. As I said earlier, it then becomes a 'percentage game' - and if it should meet a really cold surface, then it will condense, i.e. undergo a phase change into liquid water.

Any of these may be used to eliminate moisture from the hive.  I prefer to encourage condensation, but it isn't the only way. If I lived in an environment where significant quantities of ice could build-up as a result, I'd probably go for top ventilation with the expense of some heat loss.

LJ
« Last Edit: November 28, 2015, 08:41:45 am by little john »
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Offline iddee

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Re: Winter Ventilation for a Nuc
« Reply #24 on: November 28, 2015, 10:59:15 am »
Although the above scenarios are interesting, I think the number one ingredient has been left out. That being, 20 to 30 thousand quads of little wings working as fans to direct the flow of air up one side and down the other. The temp and humidity don't come into play at all when the flow is controlled by force. Therefore, in my opinion, the natural flow of the heat created by the bees would be upward, top entrances would prevent the proper control when the fans "wings" slowed. I believe the bees have an easier job controlling the flow of air with lower entrances, and the bees natural selection on wild hives seem to support that. Having said that, I also believe smaller lower entrances, rather than SBBs, make it easier to control.
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Offline Eric Bosworth

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Re: Winter Ventilation for a Nuc
« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2015, 10:47:23 pm »
LJ I realize that all humidity must have evaporated from someplace. My point is that if the humidity inside the hive is because of high humidity outside the hive I fail to see the relavancy of the lumber kiln.

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Offline Duane

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Re: Winter Ventilation for a Nuc
« Reply #26 on: November 29, 2015, 11:27:30 am »
I still say that what the link gave about how a wood drying kiln works is totally different than how a beehive works.  Now the result may or may not be the same do to complex systems involved which may differ in each. 

Quote
Question: "Does moist air rise - yes or no ?"
I don't think that would be the question to ask based upon the kiln drying link. It's based upon the phase change of a liquid imparting heat to that being dried.

I don't know from where you've got this idea that superheated steam - with it's phase-change etc - is the central principle of kiln-drying.
From
https://archive.org/details/theoryofdryingit00tiemrich
starting on page 14, titled "Evaporation in the Absence of Air".

"...a wet piece of wood has been heated in saturated steam to 212F.  No evaporation will take place until additional heat is added.  Now, suppose steam superheated to 232F or 20 of superheat is introduced.  The portion immediately in contact with the surface of the wet wood will be cooled to 212F., and in so doing it will vaporize a certain portion of water from the surface...."

 Further down in the presense of air, the air and steam imparts heat to the wood raising the temperature of the wood as it dries.

As I understand it, no wood drying occurs until steam condenses upon it.  Gas to liquid.

It also generalizes superheated steam to be "vapor present in the air at any humidity less than saturation is really 'superheated steam'", page 9.

Therefore whether above 212 or not, the wood must be cooler than the moist air so the phase change can happen.  The wood is dried by raising its temperature by having warmer air condense upon it.

Which is absolutely not what you want happening in a bee hive.  You don't want warm air condensing on cooler honey to evaporate it.  And when all the honey is capped, nothing is being evaporated other than the respiration of the bees.  And they take care of that evaporation.  They only need for it to be eliminated.

Am I missing something here?


And as iddee pointed out, the bees affect the air currents, too. 

Should there be any objection to testing it and finding out?

Offline jayj200

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Re: Winter Ventilation for a Nuc
« Reply #27 on: November 29, 2015, 01:08:15 pm »
So who has tried thin follower boards on the outsides of the hive? making a cooler exhaust evaporator, moister eliminator,yes this would work

Offline Eric Bosworth

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Re: Winter Ventilation for a Nuc
« Reply #28 on: November 29, 2015, 04:32:15 pm »
Jayj200 I can't quite figure out what you mean.  A box in a box? Condensation on the outside box dry  bees inside the inner box? I'm not sure what a follower board on the outside would look like.

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Offline derekm

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Re: Winter Ventilation for a Nuc
« Reply #29 on: January 12, 2016, 02:54:01 pm »
My hives are apparently defective then...  no top vent I get a lot of ice build up around the edges.. I use foam on the top, Ice didnt build up there, but a lot of it built up around the edges and sides, to the point of freezing the outside frames in solid.  A small upper vent/entrance fixed that... it also fixed the ice dam that built up around the lower entrance... meaning.. i didnt have to worry about it anymore because they have an upper entrance for those upper 40 degree days.. so i dont have to go out and clear/chip entrances anymore...
   I think it has a lot to do with your location and humidity. Not to mention temps and the wind chill factor.
you should have insulated the sides  and made a 6" long insulated entrance
your target is around 1/5 to 1/8 the heat loss of a standard hive
If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?

Offline derekm

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Re: Winter Ventilation for a Nuc
« Reply #30 on: January 12, 2016, 03:03:26 pm »

Lot's of complex things going on there.  But how does all this relate to a hive?  The hive produces its own heat internally.  It is not superheated, meaning a phase shift is not happening. 
I'm not sure the source of heat is important - that a molecule of water vapour is generated by some means is where we could reasonably start an attempt to track what subsequently happens to that molecule.

Quote
Little John said, "This is where the classic scientific method is totally inadequate", I'm not sure I understand that. 
Inadequate for two reasons - firstly, because the classic scientific method invariably relies upon the manipulation of a single variable, yet in practice with biological systems, there may be multiple variables involved - especially with 'whole organism' biological systems (and when such organisms have intelligence, and may react independently), as opposed to studies of muscle fibres and so forth, which certainly do lend themselves to traditional biological experiments.

Secondly, the classic scientific method assumes that conducting an experiment does not change the scenario under investigation.

For a more in-depth explanation of these and other limitations of scientific enquiry, suggest you Google "Peter Medawar - Is the Scientific Paper a Fraud ?" [in which he concludes that it is]

Returning to the molecule of water vapour (gas) within a beehive scenario for a moment - it may well be the case that such a molecule descends due to an increase of density cause by evaporative cooling. Now if we accept that this is so, then the opposite dynamic will also occur - namely, if such a molecule comes into contact with a warm surface (such as a wax comb) or other molecules of warmed gas, then there will be a transfer of thermal energy such that the effects of the evaporative cooling become neutralised, and even reversed - with the molecule of water vapour once again becoming lighter than air, and ascending accordingly.

So - if this is anywhere near the case - it then becomes a 'percentage game' - with some water vapour molecules ascending and some descending - depending upon their individual temperatures.

I hope we can at least agree that this is a highly complex situation, and one in which there are probably no obvious answers.


I think this might be an appropriate moment to remind ourselves that exclusive logic (true or false, existence or non-existence, etc) is a human invention, a creation of Aristotle which was revived and taught from the 11th Century European Intellectual Renaissance onwards. Because we are introduced to such an idea during our formative years, we consider it to be unchallengeable. We talk about something being 'logical', as if it were transparently obvious and not really worthy of further examination.

But here we have a wonderful example (I think) of a non-Aristotelian system.
Question: "Does moist air rise - yes or no ?"
Answer: "Well, it all depends on what happens to individual molecules ..."

Question: "Is it best to have an upper or lower entrance to ventilate a hive ?"
Answer: "Either will work. There is no 'best'."

The idea of two opposite scenarios being equally valid may offend our sense of what is reasonable, and that one MUST be better than the other. There are many such ideas based on the primal concept of 'The One' which can also be traced back to Aristotle - so I blame him for any brain damage ... or rather those 11th Century monks.
:smile:

LJ
this a calumny, Science is not cofined to a single variable, consider computational fluid dynamics,  the research involving milllions or variables!And Peter Medawar - Is the Scientific Paper a Fraud does not reach that conclusion. His conclusion is that the structure of the scientific paper does not represent the structure of scientific thought. A very different thing.
If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?

Offline Colobee

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Re: Winter Ventilation for a Nuc
« Reply #31 on: January 15, 2016, 09:08:29 pm »
...Killion's 1951 'Honey in the Comb' ... In those pages Kilion makes reference to living in Illinois - the next state to yourself - and his method of dealing with your severe winters was to retain a bottom entrance, but install pairs of hives inside 'flat-pack' winter packing cases, and adding additional straw. (well, it was the 1950's)  I don't know if you've come across this author ? Apparently he's well respected....His over-wintering success claims are impressive....

Yes- a well respected and often cited beekeeper of the time, frequently quoted in the mainstay literature.  He is the author of "The production of Comb Honey and Bulk Comb Honey" Chapter of  "The Hive and the Honey Bee", 1975. The decline in interest for comb honey doesn't diminish his many observations and techniques.
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Offline little john

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Re: Winter Ventilation for a Nuc
« Reply #32 on: January 16, 2016, 05:13:31 pm »
this a calumny, Science is not cofined to a single variable,  ...

I find that accusation offensive, but nothing less than I've come to expect from someone so blinkered.

As you well know, I didn't say science was confined to a single variable - what I said was "the classic scientific method invariably relies upon the manipulation of a single variable , yet in practice with biological systems, there may be multiple variables involved ...", and so on.

When research chemists come across the interesting use of a herb, for example - what do they immediately do ?  Attempt to isolate the "active ingredient" (singular) - that's single-variable thinking in action.

Another example - to keep this vaguely on-topic - "what constitutes the ideal swarm trap ?" Most people will say a cavity of around 40 litres in size. Where does this idea come from ? From an experiment conducted by Thomas Seeley - in which he sets out to determine what size nest cavity bees prefer. Size of course, being a single variable. I have every sympathy for this approach, for biological experiments involving more than one variable would be unwieldy, difficult, and very time-consuming to conduct.

But the problem with such single-variable experiments is that they rarely present the whole truth, and in the case of Seeley's experiment - the work was fraudulent (in the Medawarian sense) precisely because Seeley had pre-determined that cavity size was the only important factor to be considered, and had duly set out to determine what that size was. The paper was written-up and published in the form which Medawar describes as fraudulent: "the scientific paper is a fraud in the sense that it does give a totally misleading narrative of the processes of thought that go into the making of scientific discoveries."

There are many other variables which could be equally valid in the case of nest cavities: height from the ground; cavity shape; colour, entrance size; smell,  and so on ...  But no - that experiment focussed (as thousands of similar experiments do) exclusively upon one single variable - one which has been pre-determined to be of importance.  Medawar again: " ... all scientific work of an experimental or exploratory character starts with some expectation about the outcome of the inquiry." (You see, there is far more to Medawar's paper than just it's conclusion)

A more complete narrative was to later emerge when Seeley wrote a book which included a story about the truth of what actually happened. The experiment was conducted on a barren island, so that the bees could not be distracted by trees or other potential nesting places. That was good 'scientific' thinking, but totally divorced from reality, as such places do not allow bees to behave naturally.

And did the bees choose one size cavity over another ? No, they did not - at least not when allowed to. They flew clean away from the experimental site and set-up home in a chimney above the only building on that otherwise deserted island !

That was a golden opportunity to make an original discovery of merit - that there may be something about a chimney (size, shape, smell - who knows ?) - but it was by-passed by an agenda of prejudice (the pre-judging that cavity size was the sole factor of importance).

It was only after that chimney had been sealed, that the experiment could be continued. Is this really valid science ? Well, yes it IS - and that's my beef about much biological enquiry - because it is so often predicated upon a completely unrealistic and unnatural setting - and thus becomes a game which involves strict rules about what information can be revealed, and in what form.

I know you to be a person who is preoccupied with the single variable of heat, and issues of insulation - but again I stress - biological systems such as beehives involve multiple variables, and to complicate matters further, some of these emanate from intelligent responses of the organisms under examination.

The craft of beekeeping is an art, and lends itself very poorly to traditional scientific enquiry.

LJ
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Offline derekm

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Re: Winter Ventilation for a Nuc
« Reply #33 on: January 29, 2016, 06:24:33 pm »
I still hold to this being calumny and now it is directed at myself.
   I am interested in heat transfer in honeybee nests.
This involves the shapes of the hive/enclosure and postion of the heatsource/bees, the position of the openings, the properties of the materials, the airflow inside the hive and the air flow outside the hive, the variation of heat production with temperature, The variation of heat flux. A complex multidimensional problem that needs sophisticated visualisation tools such as Paraview. http://www.paraview.org/
  Science at least the science i am involved in is multidimensional. If you think its a single variable then that reflects your knowledge and perception  not reality
   
An example here is a multidimensional paper ...

J Theor Biol. 2012 Feb 21;295:168-93. doi: 10.1016/j.jtbi.2011.11.007. Epub 2011 Nov 25.
Flow currents and ventilation in Langstroth beehives due to brood thermoregulation efforts of honeybees.
Sudarsan R1, Thompson C, Kevan PG, Eberl HJ.

« Last Edit: January 29, 2016, 06:43:37 pm by derekm »
If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?

Offline Duane

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Re: Winter Ventilation for a Nuc
« Reply #34 on: March 31, 2016, 06:02:41 pm »
My three hives made it through winter.  When looking this spring, I noticed that there was mold on the top cover much like the hive I had with a bottom entrance.  I had narrowed my top entrances.  I am thinking that when you have warm moist air that contacts cold surfaces, you have condensation.  It doesn't matter that you have top or bottom entrances, unless you have the top completely off.  The only difference is that perhaps the moist air would not remain within the hive with a top entrance.

Offline Dabbler

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Re: Winter Ventilation for a Nuc
« Reply #35 on: April 01, 2016, 05:25:18 pm »
I thought it was odd that none of the researchers had done humidity measurements in a hive so I went looking and found that they had:

http://repository.up.ac.za/bitstream/handle/2263/28357/dissertation.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

I am still slogging through the report.
However Iddee's comments about the thousands of little fans is very valid and is echoed in the thesis.
The bees do apparently actively regulate the humidity within the hive.
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