Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: NCNate on June 05, 2022, 10:16:07 am
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It looks like the largest part of the nectar flow has tapered off in my area. I live in a wooded area and yesterday I heard bees up in the tops of the trees. Looks like they are working the red oaks but they dropped their tassels 2 months ago. What would the bees be after?
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I have heard them in Blackwalnuts and I thought they after honey dew.
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I will go with Paus reference. Oak trees do put out honeydew. Wonder how this honey taste? Anyone know?
Phillip
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Honey dew is very strong flavored. In Europe it is sold for a premium. In the US it's not very popular.
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Thanks Mr Bush, Most of the stronger honey that I have experienced has been darker honey. I am assuming Oak honeydew is a darker honey. ?
Phillip
EDIT:
Most of the stronger honey that I have experienced has been darker honey. I am assuming Oak honeydew makes a darker honey. ?
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Honeydew is NOT honey. It is honeydew. It is made from the excretions of aphids, not the nectar of flowers. It is sweet, but it doesn't taste like honey, because it's not. But yes, honeydew is darker.
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My mistake Mr Bush. One word can change the whole meaning of intent. Thanks for pointing this out. My intent was:
Thanks Mr Bush, Most of the stronger honey that I have experienced has been darker honey. I am assuming Oak honeydew makes a darker honey. ?
Phillip
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Mr. Bush, in your second post you spelled "HONEYDEW" correctly, it is one word. This is FOI for our informati0on.
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Thank you Mr Binnie.
https://youtu.be/np8YTj4mhCE
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>Mr. Bush, in your second post you spelled "HONEYDEW" correctly, it is one word. This is FOI for our informati0on.
The spell checker probably outsmarted me on the first post... sorry. Yes, it's one word. The general rule in English is that it is one word or a compound word (with a hyphen) when it describes something other than the words used to describe it, e.g. butterfly which is not a fly and not butter. Honey bee still seems to be up for discussion, but it seems to me that it is a bee, and the kind of bee is the one that makes honey. So Honey bee seems correct where honeybee would be something that is neither honey nor a bee. So honeydew is neither honey nor dew, therefore honeydew is the appropriate term rather than honey dew which would indicate that it is either honey or dew and the other word describes what kind of honey. But since it ends up in a bee hive I suppose an argument could be made that it is a kind of honey. But the general definition of honey is something made by the bees from nectar which honeydew is not.
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I assumed the bees were using the honeydew as a nectar source, and converting it into honey. Is that not true?
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I assumed the bees were using the honeydew as a nectar source, and converting it into honey. Is that not true?
Bob I was totally under the 'very same' assumption and understanding as you about honeydew (honey). I also think it is safe to assume bees must have the very same assumption as well! lol :grin: :wink:
However, Mr Binnie and Mr Bush both broke the subject down to the foundation. If I understand each of these folks correctly, Honeydew can not 'officially' be considered true Honey though called such when collected, converted, and stored by bees, just as done with 'true nectar' honey.
See 2:24 to 3:12 in Mr Binnnies video....
I suppose the same can be said of bee collected and converted 'sugar water' not being real honey, just as said of honeydew not being real honey for example, though two totally different sources neither being 'real honey' collected from real nectar, and rightfully so when we consider. Mr Binnies displayed written text in the video really helps explain Honeydew.
This has turned out to be an interesting topic!
Phillip
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>I suppose the same can be said of bee collected and converted 'sugar water' not being real honey...
Correct. Because it is not made from nectar.
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Hmmm.
1. Mr. Binnie said that honeydew (by which I assume he means "honeydew honey", as opposed to "clover honey" or "sourwood honey") is bad for digestion for bees, as are some dark honeys.
2. It just seems reasonable to me that ANY honey which bees make from ANY sugar source is still honey. The QUALITY of that honey is a vastly different matter, such as honeydew honey or sugar water honey. In other words, it is not the source that determines whether it is honey, but what the bees do with the sugar source that make it honey.
...or I could be wrong.
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Bob Wilson
Hmmm.
1. Mr. Binnie said that honeydew (by which I assume he means "honeydew honey", as opposed to "clover honey" or "sourwood honey") is bad for digestion for bees, as are some dark honeys.
2. It just seems reasonable to me that ANY honey which bees make from ANY sugar source is still honey. The QUALITY of that honey is a vastly different matter, such as honeydew honey or sugar water honey. In other words, it is not the source that determines whether it is honey, but what the bees do with the sugar source that make it honey.
...or I could be wrong.
Ben Framed
Reply 11
Bob I was totally under the 'very same' assumption and understanding as you about honeydew (honey). I also think it is safe to assume bees must have the very same assumption as well! lol :grin: :wink
I agree with you reasoning Bob, although it is my understanding that sugar water honey is considered adulterated honey since it is not from a true nectar source.. (Not recognized an official real honey if you will).... Apparently honeydew is in the same class?
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2. It just seems reasonable to me that ANY honey which bees make from ANY sugar source is still honey. The QUALITY of that honey is a vastly different matter, such as honeydew honey or sugar water honey. In other words, it is not the source that determines whether it is honey, but what the bees do with the sugar source that make it honey.
...or I could be wrong.
It's reasonable, but it's neither useful for marketing or legal. And while the FDA's definition of honey being from a plant secretion makes honeydew honey technically illegal, it's an outlier in the conversation. Here's an explanation from Rusty Burlew of HoneyBeeSuite.com.
I firmly believe that syrup made from refined sugar cannot be changed into honey, but not everyone agrees. Bees do indeed break down sugar (sucrose) into its component parts (fructose and glucose). But that enzymatic process does not make honey, just as adding invertase to sugar syrup does not make honey.
Although honey is mostly fructose and glucose, it is all the other stuff that gives honey its flavor, aroma, color and nutritional benefits. Honey bees thrive on honey in part because of the nutrients, antioxidants, amino acids, protein, flavonoids, minerals, and pollen that it contains. Yes, these are small in quantity, but they are vital, just as the vitamins and minerals in human food is vital to us.
The thing that makes honey amazing, that makes it honey, is contained in the nectar of the plants, all the flavor and variety and uniqueness about honey is destroyed if inverted sugar syrup is allowed to be considered honey. I don't mind honeydew honey being labeled as such because honeydew is naturally occurring, but it would bother me if someone markets snow cone honey, or some such honey made from anything not available in the wild or at least in agriculture. The nectar is half of the equation, and the bees are the other. Without one of those two pieces, it's not honey. That's my opinion anyway.
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Lets consider Cotton Honey... It blooms for a short time but is considered to be a honey producing crop for a long amount of time because of honeydew. I once had a chart of my states plants which produce honey. Cotton was in the charts for producing honey for an extended amount of time in my State.
Phillip
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Lets consider Cotton Honey... It blooms for a short time but is considered to be a honey producing crop for a long amount of time because of honeydew. I once had a chart of my states plants which produce honey. Cotton was in the charts for producing honey for an extended amount of time in my State.
Phillip
I guess I just view honeydew honey as a loophole in the regulations. But if it was me, I wouldn't label such a product "Cotton Honey", I'd label it "Cotton Honeydew Honey", because to call it honey is somewhat misleading.
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Lets consider Cotton Honey... It blooms for a short time but is considered to be a honey producing crop for a long amount of time because of honeydew. I once had a chart of my states plants which produce honey. Cotton was in the charts for producing honey for an extended amount of time in my State.
Phillip
I guess I just view honeydew honey as a loophole in the regulations. But if it was me, I wouldn't label such a product "Cotton Honey", I'd label it "Cotton Honeydew Honey", because to call it honey is somewhat misleading.
I agree. So far I have stayed away from cotton honey simply for the fear of pesticides..
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Honeydew may bring a premium price?
Here are even more bizarre twist concerning honeydew and honey. There are several articles similar....
Oak Honeydew honey vs floral honey - Nuraxi Life Shophttps://nuraxilife.com ? blogs ? news ? what-is-honeyde...
Apr 29, 2020 ? Honeydew honey contains health promoting antioxidants ; Honeydew honey is higher in the ; antioxidant, ; polyphenol, than traditional honey. The ...
What is Honeydew Honey? - Carolina Honeybeeshttps://carolinahoneybees.com ? ... ? Beekeeping
Health Benefits of Honeydew Honey ? Is honeydew honey better for you? Perhaps. It is generally higher in minerals and amino acids that floral honey. And ...
Health Benefits of Honeydew - WebMDhttps://www.webmd.com ? ... ? Reference
Sep 17, 2020 ? Eating honeydew may help strengthen your bones and prevent the development of certain conditions, including osteoporosis. That's because ...
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Just to clarify,
I personally do not consider "sugar syrup honey" desirable. Neither "honeydew honey". This is the first time my thoughts have traveled down this line of thinking. It is an existential beekeeping moment for me. What actually is the nature, the definition, of honey?
The average Joe has no concept that this issue is, well, an issue.
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Not in the trees but a comparison of Honeydew from trees to cotton. A little more on HONEYDEW from cotton. Not dark as the description of other honeydew such as Oak honeydew. In fact according to the following source it is light amber in color.
SOURCE: https://healthywithhoney.com/how-is-cotton-honey/
"The flavor of honey collected from the leaf (extra-floral) nectaries of the cotton-plant in no way differs from honey collected from flowers.
A hectare of cotton plants in bloom yields from 100 to 300 kilograms of honey. Cross-pollination by bees increases the cotton crop by 40 to 56 per cent.
Characteristics of cotton honey:
Color: light amber
Taste and flavor: pleasant, buttery, yet with a definite tang. Some people say the flavor makes you think more of a hard lemonade than a fluffy cloud!
The taste changes depending on the soil type and cotton variety, which influenced a lot the nectar yield"
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Just to clarify,
I personally do not consider "sugar syrup honey" desirable. Neither "honeydew honey". This is the first time my thoughts have traveled down this line of thinking. It is an existential beekeeping moment for me. What actually is the nature, the definition, of honey?
The average Joe has no concept that this issue is, well, an issue.
I realize that Bob, and it's a valid question, and one that is actually open to some interpretation, for all the reasons we've discussed. Honey is, by my definition at least, a substance made by bees in which a sugar-rich liquid gathered from plants is mixed with the bees' gut secretions and then reduced down to approx. 18% water content (say 25% or less, or something, as a cut off, many honey varieties vary in their moisture content). That's the definition I'd submit. Anything which doesn't meet all those criteria is at very least suspect to being called "honey".
"The flavor of honey collected from the leaf (extra-floral) nectaries of the cotton-plant in no way differs from honey collected from flowers.
Wait! Hold the phone! There's a situation here. If you are telling me that the honey made from cotton is produce from a substance excreted by the plant from a NECTARY, then that is genuine honey, and not honeydew honey. Honeydew is a secretion, or excretion, of insects which are feeding on a plant, which is why it's questionable to call it honey. In laymen's terms, bug poop is not nectar. :wink: Nectar is nectar, no matter where it is on the plant. No one ever said the nectar had to come from a flower.
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Reagan Im not exactly sure! lol This one has me dazzled! When you have the opportunity, check out the link. Maybe the girls will help... If so thanks Sisters.
Phillip
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Ok, I think the confusion here is stemming from the fact that no where on this thread have we actually defined "honeydew". Honeydew is the waste excretion of certain insects that feed on plant sap (think aphids, scale bugs, etc.) These insects have piercing mouthparts which they stab into a plant and then suck out its internal juices. Because these bugs eat only plant sap though, they need to eat copious amounts of it to get enough protein in their diet, way more than their tiny stomachs can hold, and they end up ingesting way more sugars than they need for their own carbohydrate intake, just to get the other nutrients they require. As a result their digestive tracts move really quickly, and a lot of the sugars survive out the back end. :wink: :cheesy: Their waste is therefore attractive to other insects who are searching for sugary liquids, like bees, and also ants, some of whom even farm aphids for their honeydew. This is why honeydew honey is only questionably honey, because the source for the honey is not a plant, it's an insect.
Now, cotton. Cotton flowers, which should have been obvious to me if I was thinking about it. There are obviously seeds in cotton bolls, hence the invention of the cotton gin, and where there are seeds, there are flowers (or cones, but obviously cotton plants don't make pine cones). Cotton is self-pollinating, so it doesn't require bees, but, as you mentioned Phillip, cotton will increase its yield when cross-pollinated by insects. So cotton does produce nectar, both in its short-lived flowers and in extra-floral nectaries outside of flowers, in this case on the leaves. Which means cotton honey is honey, because it's made from plant nectar.
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Now, cotton. Cotton flowers, which should have been obvious to me if I was thinking about it. There are obviously seeds in cotton bolls, hence the invention of the cotton gin, and where there are seeds, there are flowers (or cones, but obviously cotton plants don't make pine cones). Cotton is self-pollinating, so it doesn't require bees, but, as you mentioned Phillip, cotton will increase its yield when cross-pollinated by insects. So cotton does produce nectar, both in its short-lived flowers and in extra-floral nectaries outside of flowers, in this case on the leaves. Which means cotton honey is honey, because it's made from plant nectar.
Thank you for digging into this deeper Reagan. 😁😁
Adding: A few years ago I posted here an article about a honey taste contest which was held in Texas. Cotton honey was the winner.
Phillip
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The following is the Beemaster location of the Honey Judging Contest in Texas in case someone might be interested. If I understand the article correctly, it supports your conclusion Reagan.
Topic: Cotton Honey, Taste Of Texas