advice needed - Is it time to intervene?

[incognito]

Hive 1 seems to be struggling compared to Hive 2.

I now partially appreciate the stress first time parents go through when raising twins. You can't help being disappointed and concerned when one twin falls behind the other. Since each will have successes in different aspects of their lives, the achievement of one must always be bittersweet.

Does Hive one need an intervention or not?


Hive 2 consumed at least double the amount of syrup than Hive 1 since the installation. In the middle of last week I changed the jar lid on Hive 1 and enlarged the vent hole in the inner cover so more of the jar lid is exposed - so it is now the same feeding system as Hive 2. While doing that I think I heard piping coming from the hive. Queen cells were not seen in the hive inspection a few days prior.


During this inspection a queen was observed by herself on a frame on the edge of the brood nest. The queen that came  with the package was unmarked so I can not be certain that this is the same queen.

The packages were installed on 4/20. Both have gone through their first brood rearing cycle. But what a difference.

Hive 2:There are eggs/lavae in the cells where bees had emerged from this week among yet to emerge capped brood - not honey as suggested in the video. So I expect those great brood patterns will begin to look more disorganized as the new brood is capped.

[youtube]jQ2wzCt4NOI[/youtube]

Hive 1:
[youtube]2hh93mRhEjo[/youtube]

[saltybluegrass]

SBB OR SBB?
Screened bottom board or Single Brood Box

[incognito]

Hive 1 has a solid bottom board with the entrance reducer now on the larger setting, 10 frame single brood box.


Hive 2 screened bottom board with no entrance reducer at all,  8 frame started with a single brood box.


In hive 2 a second brood box was added below the original last week so the colony would not feel cramped for space. The frames of brood were left in the original brood box. We decided not to fix what was not broken by rearranging frames between the original and new box as some suggested thinking that the weather here is warming up. There is a minor amount of wax just starting to be built out in the center of the bottom box (not shown in the video) while the bees have not built any wax on the outermost frame of the top box.

[Donovan J]

I think that hive one is just a weaker colony. Some colonies are strong and some weak. That's just how it works

[incognito]

I think that hive one is just a weaker colony. Some colonies are strong and some weak. That's just how it works

I'm okay if that is the answer. Hive 1 did expand slightly from last week.

I just do not have the experience to know if I am not recognizing a problem (mites, brood diseases, etc.) that should be addressed.

[Donovan J]

I think that hive one is just a weaker colony. Some colonies are strong and some weak. That's just how it works

I'm okay if that is the answer. Hive 1 did expand slightly from last week.

I just do not have the experience to know if I am not recognizing a problem (mites, brood diseases, etc.) that should be addressed.

I suggest researching on these diseases and learning how to treat them.

[Oldbeavo]

Were both hives stared from packages?
If so the queens may have been different in maturity, so will start at different pace.
Look at the brood pattern of the slow hive to determine queen quality, patchy, shotty brood poor queen. Look at Vans picture of good quality brood.
Queens will lay at varying pace depending on nectar/ syrup inflow, which is also dependant on number of workers to collect.
So the more developed hive will move ahead quicker.

[incognito]

Were both hives stared from packages?
If so the queens may have been different in maturity, so will start at different pace.
Look at the brood pattern of the slow hive to determine queen quality, patchy, shotty brood poor queen. Look at Vans picture of good quality brood.
Queens will lay at varying pace depending on nectar/ syrup inflow, which is also dependant on number of workers to collect.
So the more developed hive will move ahead quicker.

Both hives were started from packages at the same time from the same supplier on 4/20 and are 8 feet apart.
The brood pattern looked fine to me on both hives last week. Look at the video from hive 2 inspection - it looks awesome to me.
What I do not know if hive 1 is at the lower end of an acceptable range of performance. Or is it average but looks bad when compared to a superstar hive. That is what I need you experienced guys to help me with.


Here is the brood pattern from one week ago before any emerged.

[BeeMaster2]

Looks like both hives are doing pretty well. As mentioned, the queen in hive #2 may bee more developed or the bees in hive #1 were older than the bees in hive #2 and are not as good at covering/feeding the brood. Packages are made by dumping a bunch of bees in a box and adding a mated queen. They are not constant from box to box.
This is why we tell new beekeepers to start with 2 hives.
In any case, let the bees bee bees. Their doing just file.
Jim Altmiller

[incognito]

Thanks for the reassurance Jim.
I'll just keep feeding and observing for now.

[Oldbeavo]

For what ever reason hive 1 just doesn't have the bee population, brood area is lower and so will be behind for some time.
Th only intervention I would consider would be to take a frame of brood from hive 2 that is hatching but has grubs and eggs in the hatched area, and transfer it to hive 1. Make sure you find the queen so you don't transfer her.
The nurse bees will stay in hive 1 and increase numbers plus the hatching brood. Could use some sprinkled icing sugar to increase acceptance.
May help to balance the hives and give hive 1 a boost.

[incognito]

The only intervention I would consider would be to take a frame of brood from hive 2 that is hatching but has grubs and eggs in the hatched area, and transfer it to hive 1.

Thanks for the advice. That is what I was considering if the colony and queen are healthy.

Unless I see swarm cells in hive 2, I am going to hold off for at least two weeks, mainly to continue to observe and learn how the two hives develop on their own for 6-7 weeks. (From when the first egg was laid until the last pupa emerges before the initial brood nest is recycled.)

If my assumptions and math are right, the package population is just before or after its low point before the population explosion occurs. (Assuming approximately half of the package will die off before the first bee emerges.)

[incognito]

Positive signs:
Today's quickie inspection (5 weeks from package installation) of hive one revealed lots of capped brood and the beginning of the bees capping honey/nectar stores on the top edge of a few frames. Observations of the landing board a few days ago revealed a noticeable increase in the amount of pollen coming in. Syrup consumption was minimal from last Saturday through Tuesday evening but then consumption picked up during the second half of the week. These bees seem content on filling out the core frames from edge to edge before working outwards towards the sides of the brood box.
I am no longer concerned about the survival of this colony (for now) and am looking forward to see what the next inspection will reveal.
Hive two continues to progress as well. The 8 original frames have been built out on both sides. The bees have made it to the side walls. Today we put the core 4 brood frames in the middle of the bottom brood box, moved the outside frames of the top box to the middle and put the less worked frames on the outside of both deep brood boxes. No honey supers were added at this point. Since we are going on a family vacation starting late next week, that may need to wait two weeks.

No signs of swarm or supercedure queen cells in either colony.
Tom

[incognito]

Hive 2 is still on a tear.Before leaving for vacation two weeks ago, we added a frame feeder to the bottom brood box and kept the top feeder on. The bees went through more than two gallons of syrup in two weeks. They were building comb on the top of the frames and between the frames. All of the 15 frames had comb built.
So we scraped off the wayward comb, removed the frame feeder and replaced it with a frame of foundation, and replaced the top feeder with the flow hive supers.These bees were cut off cold turkey from syrup.The amount of orientation flights that evening was amazing.

So how likely is it that they will start robbing the nearby weaker hive from being cut off from syrup?
Since the two deep brood boxes are stuffed with bees, would it be a crazy idea to do a split before they get cramped? How often should I monitor for swarm cells on a package installation at 7 weeks?

[incognito]

Hive 1 is doing fine.I discovered 2 near full seams of comb with honey/nectar stores built on the top of the frames.Although the original brood box had room to go, I added a second brood box leaving 4 frames of brood in the original bottom brood box and put three frames of brood and stores in the newly added top brood box. I put the frame feeder from hive 2 into the bottom box of this colony.
It may have been premature, but I acted because of the comb built on top of the frames.
I am prepared to do nothing more to this colony for the remainder of the year (just monitor and feed syrup) and let them just work with the ample space provided.The only other thing I may do is add foundation to the middle of the brood nests every few weeks to encourage them to build more comb and widen the brood nest.
Any thoughts?

[Donovan J]

Hive 2 is still on a tear.Before leaving for vacation two weeks ago, we added a frame feeder to the bottom brood box and kept the top feeder on. The bees went through more than two gallons of syrup in two weeks. They were building comb on the top of the frames and between the frames. All of the 15 frames had comb built.
So we scraped off the wayward comb, removed the frame feeder and replaced it with a frame of foundation, and replaced the top feeder with the flow hive supers.These bees were cut off cold turkey from syrup.The amount of orientation flights that evening was amazing.

So how likely is it that they will start robbing the nearby weaker hive from being cut off from syrup?
Since the two deep brood boxes are stuffed with bees, would it be a crazy idea to do a split before they get cramped? How often should I monitor for swarm cells on a package installation at 7 weeks?

In a first year hive it is very rare for swarming but keep an eye out. I would focus more on surviving the winter than doing splits in the first year. I added a honey super to my hive today so i hope i can get a bit of honey and leave the rest for the winter.

[incognito]

In a first year hive it is very rare for swarming but keep an eye out. I would focus more on surviving the winter than doing splits in the first year. I added a honey super to my hive today so i hope i can get a bit of honey and leave the rest for the winter.

Our original intention was to leave all of the honey to the bees in year one for overwintering. But the growth of this hive is far exceeding all expectations.I would rather take brood from this hive and move it to hive 1 to ensure that both hives will start the winter with strength.My son, who started this adventure, is pondering the split reasoning that we can always unite the split with hive 1 before winter starts.
I am trying to let him do what he wants with "his" colony, even if I disagree.
We just ordered more 8 frame equipment - two deeps, two mediums - and will reassess next weekend.

[cao]

In my area splits made in July have a hard time building up enough for winter.  The lack of pollen and/or nectar in August does not allow for growth.  Usually the smaller hives just maintain size until the fall flow if there is any.  Which hasn't been very good around here the last couple of years.  I may make a few more splits this month,  but they will probably be overwintered in nuc setups.
 

[Donovan J]

In a first year hive it is very rare for swarming but keep an eye out. I would focus more on surviving the winter than doing splits in the first year. I added a honey super to my hive today so i hope i can get a bit of honey and leave the rest for the winter.

Our original intention was to leave all of the honey to the bees in year one for overwintering. But the growth of this hive is far exceeding all expectations.I would rather take brood from this hive and move it to hive 1 to ensure that both hives will start the winter with strength.My son, who started this adventure, is pondering the split reasoning that we can always unite the split with hive 1 before winter starts.
I am trying to let him do what he wants with "his" colony, even if I disagree.
We just ordered more 8 frame equipment - two deeps, two mediums - and will reassess next weekend.

You could probably take one frame of honey and not do much harm.

[ed/La.]

If you have been feeding sugar syrup that is what the honey is made of or partially made of.