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Offline little john

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Some lady got lucky ...
« on: August 04, 2017, 11:38:38 am »
I've always taken this 'Apiary Vicinity Mating' idea with a huge pinch of salt  - 'cause how would you ever know about such things ?  Well - today I found a drone lying on the car bonnet (hood) with it's 'bits' extended, and blow me - there was another one in the same condition lying on the pathway. So some young lady got lucky without having to fly too far earlier today - although I wouldn't fancy relying on this (AVM) happening every single time ...
LJ
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Some lady got lucky ...
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2017, 09:16:55 am »
How would you conclude such a thing?  The drones could have been from colonies 5 miles away.
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Offline eltalia

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Re: Some lady got lucky ...
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2017, 10:11:33 am »
"I've always taken this 'Apiary Vicinity Mating' idea with a huge pinch of salt - 'cause how would you ever know about such things ? "

What would you make of this then, reportedly found adjacent the hive body.

https://ibb.co/dkN9nF


Cheers.

Bill

Offline little john

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Re: Some lady got lucky ...
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2017, 10:13:04 am »
Of course I don't know which drones were involved (as they all look pretty-much the same) - but I do know where the queen was mated - directly overhead of my vehicle.  So it's not so much Mating in the Vicinity of my Apiary - but right smack bang in the middle of it.  There can be no other explanation for that drone's presence, and in that condition.
LJ


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Offline little john

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Re: Some lady got lucky ...
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2017, 10:16:34 am »
"I've always taken this 'Apiary Vicinity Mating' idea with a huge pinch of salt - 'cause how would you ever know about such things ? "

What would you make of this then, reportedly found adjacent the hive body.
https://ibb.co/dkN9nF
Cheers.
Bill

Yes - another example.  Much the same as mine.  The drones I found were the very first for me, ever.  Never had any evidence for AVM, before now.
LJ
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Offline little john

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Re: Some lady got lucky ...
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2017, 10:27:55 am »
I suppose in both of these cases there might be the outside possibility of there being a Drone Congregation Area directly overhead of the apiary concerned.  Should more examples of this kind of event be reported, it would certainly add support to the proposition that AVM is taking place, either that or there is one helluva coincidence involved.
LJ
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Some lady got lucky ...
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2017, 04:59:02 pm »
Nature always has exceptions to the rules.
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Offline eltalia

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Re: Some lady got lucky ...
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2017, 09:50:20 pm »

"Never had any evidence for AVM, before now.
LJ"

Having had all the "book learnin'" under an accredited curriculum , I did for many years simply accept what was delivered as "Fact" . Only forming truely full education as I found different to those teachings in actual onsite discovery.
Much the same goes for "religous instruction" at that same Alma Mater.. but that is another story.
We were told - no doubt reaped from ancient accounts - "the queen leaves the hive to fly with her drones, mates with the superior drone and returns to the colony. The drone dies" - no explanation then as I gather (now) that information was witheld as it may 'corrupt' the ethos of that Boys College, religously so ;-)
For many years I simply accepted the teaching, having no real interest in exploring that area of beekeeping, until I did mix with some queen breeders of repute who rabbled on about "genetic diversity" and "line breeding queens". I took notes accquiring such terms as "drone congregations" (DCA today) and "apiary mating" (AVM today)... each of which are contradictory, if you take in the hypothesis (pl) of various studies.

I remain largely disinterested in the micromanagement of bee coitus,  believing as it something wholly out of Man's control why bother oneself with such puzzles.
What will bee will bee.

Yet the eyes do roll a tad when I read/hear accounts (not on BMA, so far) of some who repeat the HunniAid frothings in some tacit fork of gaining or maintaining credibilty amongst BKs... such has got me into trouble at BK meets for vocalising the scepticism. Lucky for me I present an imposing figure ;-))))
What I do know, seen myself, is exactly that which is pictured in the earlier post. And usually in close proximity of the apiray if not immediately adjacent the colony being monitored for mating. I have never seen an eviscerated drone or heard any "popping" despite being there whilst mating flights are happening, on a number of occassions to date.

So... my question is, is anyone able to give account of true witness to the popular (?) DCA mantra, inclusive of these multiple matings of multiple queens. Or indeed something else?

Doing some Net legwork myself, I disappoint myself in finding only more of the same I read today in other forums... from whence those drone images came. I confess (mea culpa) I did some "fotoshopin'" to put both bees on one slide, yet due diligence was in place so as to not corrupt the facts. Facts quite evident, to myself :-)

[loose biblography]
..enough words in this account to indicate the 'account'  is loose romantic analogy, to be taken "with a pinch of salt"
http://www.ravishly.com/2014/09/23/drone-male-honey-bee-sex-ejaculation-audible-mating-rituals

..this fella has supped the HunniAde, touting evisceration.
He wears gloves, so again "with a pinch of salt" applies.
https://m.yout  ube.com/watch?v=qO37yoTi9es

..one of many biblical repeats;
https://savannahbee.com/blog/the-drone-bee/

... a compilation of modern theorys, this author, as does yours truly, ends in
questioning how genetic purity remains with a colony;
http://blogs.plos.org/retort/2011/04/29/royal-weddings-and-bee-mixers/

[/loose biblography]

Cheers.

Bill

Offline Acebird

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Re: Some lady got lucky ...
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2017, 10:04:01 am »

So... my question is, is anyone able to give account of true witness to the popular (?) DCA mantra, inclusive of these multiple matings of multiple queens. Or indeed something else?

I have seen a youtube video of a guy that raise some queen pheromone by balloon in a known DCA area and you could see a large population of drones coming from everywhere.  If I remember right he trapped them some how in a net.  There were no apiaries in sight.  I am sure much of what is written has been observed in the past.  I think that in nature you can predict what normally happens but you can't guarantee what doesn't happen especially when there are religions beliefs.
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Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Some lady got lucky ...
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2017, 08:10:40 pm »
LJ,
What makes you think the queens were from your apiary? Unless you are on an island and know for a fact that there are no other apiaries or feral hives within 7 miles of you you really cannot tell for sure.
Jim
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Online Michael Bush

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Re: Some lady got lucky ...
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2017, 04:43:30 pm »
> So some young lady got lucky without having to fly too far earlier today - although I wouldn't fancy relying on this (AVM) happening every single time ...

How do you know she isn't from six miles away?
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Offline little john

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Re: Some lady got lucky ...
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2017, 03:46:08 am »
I think some of you are confused about what the term Apiary Vicinity Mating means ...

It refers to where mating occurs - in or near an apiary, as opposed to a Drone Congregation Area. 

AVM has nothing whatsoever to do with who's drones or even who's queens are involved - that's a completely separate issue.  Anyone claiming that their own drones or queens are involved in such an event are doing so on the basis of an assumption - that is, in the absence of some kind of DNA marker check.

I think the chances are quite high that 'my own' queen and drones were involved - but it's only a number's game - that's all it can ever be.

Which is why I say that I (as a small-time breeder) wouldn't rely on this happening every time - even if it could be proven without doubt that 'my own' queens and drones were involved in a singular AV Mating.

LJ

Perhaps I should also add that my comment that "a lady got lucky without having to fly too far", was intended as a light-hearted remark, and not as some kind of claim as proof of anything in particular.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2017, 04:30:46 am by little john »
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Some lady got lucky ...
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2017, 09:30:11 am »
Which is why I say that I (as a small-time breeder) wouldn't rely on this happening every time - even if it could be proven without doubt that 'my own' queens and drones were involved in a singular AV Mating.

As a small-time breeder would you want it to happen?
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Offline eltalia

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Re: Some lady got lucky ...
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2017, 10:46:55 am »
LJ wrote:
"It refers to where mating occurs - in or near an apiary, as opposed to a Drone Congregation Area.
AVM has nothing whatsoever to do with who's drones or even who's queens are involved - that's a completely separate issue. Anyone claiming that their own drones or queens are involved in such an event are doing so on the basis of an assumption - that is, in the absence of some kind of DNA marker check."

I am pretty much at the point of ramping up the Cynic tabs over the whole
DCA versus AVM dogma (?) LJ... being both are likely inventions of a
creative body in wishfill thinking.
What do we know... we know a queen leaves a hive only with a swarm or to be mated. We know drones leave a hive with a swarm or to do mating.
We know drones are not into selfhelp in getting a feed.
We know queens are not into selfhelp in getting a feed.
We know drones congregate on the hive exterior, often, and usually for a good part of any day. The human equivalent of swanning around the sundeck in togs and Raybans (tm) waiting for that femme fatale to drop the bikini!

So... IF drones are forming some variation of a Lodge meet 'n greet then;
a.) who does the catering?
b.) how do these guys get back home, accepting they "gather from miles around"?
c.) how does this hormone driven meandering (now) content queen find her way home, having supposedly travelled miles to the Lodge?

Not being the foraging type why or how would drones (all in flight) develop any global directions beyond following a hormonal virgin queen, a condition of male mind we know has strict boundries of focused attention. And all that on an empty stomach?
No wonder we get to see them in the vacinty of the hive body, deceased/catatonic, with wedding tackle well exposed! Or at least such has been my observation when witness to mating rutuals.. be it animal or human activity ;-)
IF one sups the HunniAde then one also accepts that all drones in a DCA go there to die... either with a smile on their dial, or from starvation.

In short, the lady does indeed get "lucky", lucky there are enough drones within her close by proximity to fill her gene bag with an evolutionary line.

Yeah, the topic chosen gave me a chuckle, LJ, hence my input in kind.

Cheers.

Bill

Offline little john

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Re: Some lady got lucky ...
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2017, 12:14:33 pm »
Which is why I say that I (as a small-time breeder) wouldn't rely on this happening every time - even if it could be proven without doubt that 'my own' queens and drones were involved in a singular AV Mating.

As a small-time breeder would you want it to happen?

On balance, yes - I think so ...

As some of you know, my area is a non-starter for honey-farming, hence there are precious few beekeepers (that are known about) within range.  Those that are known about run foundation and buy-in their queens.  So - I'm now giving them queens free of charge. And, as my apiary is on the large side, and run 100% foundationless, I think it's fair to assume that my drones are currently dominating the area.  That's why I think my queen and drones were probably involved in the recent AVM I posted about - but I'm not making any claim of this - that would be somewhat foolish.

Even with my amount of colonies, I still wouldn't rely on enough genetic variation existing here, and so I regularly buy-in breeder-quality Carniolan queens from proven sources to provide this.  Two years ago I bought queens from both Hungary and Slovenia, and this year I've purchased queens from two different Slovenian suppliers.

It would be useful to know that some form of natural breeding control (such as AVM) is taking place, but as things stand I just have to accept that whatever happens, happens, and live with it.  I don't see any other possibility, as there's no way I want to be involved with AI.  I have the necessary skills and background, but there's just something about conducting AI that I find distasteful.  That's why I still have ambitions of producing a Captive Mating Chamber - to achieve breeding control, but with bees making the selection, rather than a human being.
LJ
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Offline little john

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Re: Some lady got lucky ...
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2017, 12:29:45 pm »
We know drones are not into selfhelp in getting a feed.
So we're told - but is it true ?

Quote
We know queens are not into selfhelp in getting a feed.
That definitely isn't true - a virgin queen will scoff honey on emergence, and I've seen mated queens eating candy inside mailing cages.

Quote
So... IF drones are forming some variation of a Lodge meet 'n greet then;
a.) who does the catering?
This is precisely why I crossed swords with MB over the size of drones. He claims that small drones (say, from a Laying Worker) are equal or better than large-sized drones.  I say cobblers to that idea - the larger the drone, the more 'fuel' can be carried, with more time then spent 'on patrol'.

Quote
b.) how do these guys get back home, accepting they "gather from miles around"?
c.) how does this hormone driven meandering (now) content queen find her way home, having supposedly travelled miles to the Lodge?
Bill, have you been peeking inside my computer ?  Some days ago I wrote a reply, then never got around to posting it. This happens fairly regularly, as I tend to drift off-topic.  This is what I wrote:
Quote
"A while back there was a video made (for popular consumption) about the life of the honey-bee.  Maybe "More Than Honey" or a similar film - in which the camera team were interviewing a couple of older Austrian(?) women who make their living from producing mated queen bees.
Whilst they were filming, in the distant sky looking out across the valley in which those women kept their hives a shadowy 'comet' could be seen zig-zagging right across the sky, footage of which was duly captured and included in the finished documentary.

That event (together with 'drone-fishing') appears to give support for the DCA theory, and finding expended dead drones within our apiaries lends support for the AVM theory - but maybe it's not a case of 'either/or', but both, or even neither (!). It could well be that we haven't begun to understand even the basics of how the honey-bee operates.

Somewhere in my collection of video clips is one of a British professor announcing to his impressionable young wide-eyed students that 'we' understand how the honey-bee navigates - as he showed them examples of the waggle-dance and how that correlates to both foraging direction and distance.  I laughed out loud when I heard him say that - for there's a world of difference between a no doubt useful but nevertheless tiny insight into honey-bee communication, and a full understanding of how the honey-bee navigates - that is, for anyone who understands the fundamentals of navigation.  Not only do you need references as to both one's current position and that of destination in order to plot a course between them - but you also need some means of identifying and calculating drift, and some means of compensating for it.
All it takes is a couple of knots of wind (the lightest of breezes) across the intended track to cause a side-drift which will take the honey-bee many yards downwind during a typical foraging flight and, with the same occurring on the return trip, that bee will then be way-off target, and thus hopelessly lost.  That this doesn't happen, and that the honey-bee can navigate with the most extraordinary accuracy (an inch or two over several miles) even under windy conditions, implies that their method of navigation involves some mechanism of which we have absolutely no understanding whatsoever.  All we have seen in the waggle-dance is the tiniest snippet of insight into a most extraordinary phenomenon."
LJ
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Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Some lady got lucky ...
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2017, 12:53:03 pm »
LJ,
As to bee navigation:
Almost 40 years ago I repaired and maintained an Omega Navigation system that was based on transmitters stationed around the world that created 2 grid networks. They used 2 different frequencies, one with a large grid and another smaller set in each of the large grids. If you knew where you are when you started tracking you could navigate to any location. It worked pretty well until they started shutting down the transmitters.
From what I have read, bees see a solar grid as long as they can see blue skies.
This would allow the bees to navigate in strong winds from a known location to a point of known distance and direction. 
Jim
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Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Some lady got lucky ...
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2017, 12:57:54 pm »
Here is a basic description of the system.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omega_(navigation_system)
Jim
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Online Michael Bush

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Re: Some lady got lucky ...
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2017, 02:28:23 pm »
>It refers to where mating occurs - in or near an apiary, as opposed to a Drone Congregation Area. 

Why can't an apiary be a drone congregation area?
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Offline eltalia

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Re: Some lady got lucky ...
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2017, 06:29:21 pm »
>It refers to where mating occurs - in or near an apiary, as opposed to a Drone Congregation Area. 

Why can't an apiary be a drone congregation area?

Now that's 'cheatin'', Michael ;-)))))
When a Lodge is set for "miles away" as the mantra claims, then location location location has to be the evolutionary "thing", no?
So in having it both ways - like "at home" and "miles away"  - you are saying bees have choice, or at least drones do, and yet in all other things we rely on evolved traits to predict animal behavior.
Lions eat meat, not potatoes, so don't go patting a lion even if you are offering it chips/pratties/fries :-)
We don't have isolated apiaries as John decribes as there exists a very vibrant "bush" population pretty much anywhere you go in Australia so
happenchance for diversity is very high, even when you place a single hive of your own remotely. But the downside is you can end up with any line of bee and maybe even contribute to further degradation of our "bush bee" lineage. And so for both reasons we - or those of us who care - always buy in queens from a well remote breeder only breeding "inhouse" as a stop-gap measure for those tricky situations bees hand us, as housekeepers.

On the navigational thing?
Being also taught long ago bees rely on solar azsmith(sp?) and colony "odour" for
navigation I have grown to lean more towards the theory bees own an abilty to count longitude and latitude ftom a baseline, the colony.
It certainly explains the accuracy of foragers John accounts, and also how even after rains of weeks on end what has to be new foragers simply do a short orientation flight around the entrance and then ping off to find a source, shortly returning to gather some mates who don't even bother with any orientation flight. Go figure ;-)))

Cheers.

Bill

 

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