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Author Topic: Split queen cells question  (Read 2679 times)

Offline 220

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Split queen cells question
« on: January 03, 2018, 01:16:57 am »
Had a under performing hive, they built queen cells last autumn and then pulled them down, they did the same thing mid spring.
I was happy for them to produce a supercedure queen but for what ever reason despite starting they never went through with replacing the queen.
While my other hives have all expanded to 2x deep brood boxes and some are already filling a second deep super this one is still struggling to get out of a single deep.
Decided enough was enough 6 days ago and split it between 3 5 frame nuc boxes. Located the queen and put her in one box. My eye sight isnt as good as it once was but managed to find a frame with plenty of eggs and another that had a small patch. Gave one of these to each of the other nucs.
Had a look today and 10 cells in one about half already capped while the other has one very small cell capped.
Thinking it might be a good idea to remove a few and transfer them into the other hive as insurance but unsure on how many days to leave it after capping.


« Last Edit: January 03, 2018, 01:37:44 am by 220 »

Offline eltalia

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Re: Split queen cells question
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2018, 03:06:03 am »
@220

Capped cells can be transitioned as soon as they are capped, weather depending.
But I would be looking at that nuc @220..?... and asking why just the single build of
one cell?? Some insight may lay in the age of bees in that nuc
as you did the splits originally - it is something to keep an eye on when
choosing what bees get shook where in doing splits.
To be sure I reckon I would add some fresh eggs with emerging brood
along with the selected capped cells - three of should be plenty enough.

Bill

Offline Acebird

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Re: Split queen cells question
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2018, 09:36:43 am »
Located the queen and put her in one box.

Is she in the box with one queen cell?
On the frame of cells in the picture I do not see any honey.  Are these splits well provisioned?
Brian Cardinal
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Offline 220

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Re: Split queen cells question
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2018, 01:10:26 am »
I think the single cell was as a result of what I gave them to work with, I could only find 2 frames with eggs the best went into the nuc that produced the 10 cells the other only had a small patch of eggs and went into the nuc that only produced the single QC. The queen is in a 3rd nuc box.
I haven't been back into them since taking the photo although I did pop the lid on both a few days after taking the photo. We are in a good flow, both looked to have filled every available space and were building off the inner covers. I put another box of foundation on both, I will have another look at them  Friday.  A little early to be looking for eggs or larvae but interested to see how much comb they have drawn.
I have made enquiries about getting queens at short notice and might be in luck if I don't have queens laying by the end of the month. Combining back with the original queen is always a option if only one of them is successful as is giving them another frame from one of my other hives.

Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: Split queen cells question
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2018, 09:27:47 am »
220, when a larva is capped, immediately it morphs into a bee shape, pupae.  This larva to pupae is a very delicate stage the first 3 days of a capped cell, soo do NOT touch.  Bill used the word ?transitioned? yes ok to move but gently and keep the frame upright.  Just remember I do not like to touch the first 3 days of a capped queen cell.  Just prior to hatching is when the pupae is stable.

Just a note, the larva to pupae only takes 24 hours, however it is delicate for at least 3 days.
Blessings

Offline texanbelchers

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Re: Split queen cells question
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2018, 10:56:01 am »
I agree with Van, keep track and use a queen calendar like grafting.   But, in this case, the responses are way late.  He had capped cells on the 2nd.  It sounds like 220 is on top of it.   Good luck.

Offline beepro

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Re: Split queen cells question
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2018, 07:12:11 pm »
You must move the cell into another nuc so that the first virgin queen that
emerged will not tear down the other cells.   After 7 days post cap they will
come out.  If you are careful to not jar the cell you can move it at day one after capped.

Offline eltalia

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Re: Split queen cells question
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2018, 09:58:20 pm »
(edit)
 Bill used the word ?transitioned? yes ok to move but gently and keep the frame upright.
  Just remember I do not like to touch the first 3 days of a capped queen cell.  Just prior
 to hatching is when the pupae is stable.

Just a note, the larva to pupae only takes 24 hours, however it is delicate for at least 3 days.
Blessings

yep..."word" hey Van :-)))
I read @220 as selecting individual cells to move over so hence the use of that word.
Setting up QC moves is not so simple a task as all queen cells are delicate.. killed off
enough myself to know yer carnt treat 'em as rough as some nipples...heh heh :-)))

Bill

Offline 220

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Re: Split queen cells question
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2018, 03:13:39 am »
Had a look today in the nucs, both have drawn out the second 5 frame deep box I put on and have a heap of honey and pollen stored. Second frame I pulled from the bottom box of the nuc that has the 10 QC had a nice little patch of eggs, I didnt bother looking further.
Couldn't find any sign of a queen in the second nuc, I will give them another week and see what eventuates.
If they dont have one I will try and get hold of a mated queen or combine them back with the original hive.

Offline eltalia

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Re: Split queen cells question
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2018, 04:19:33 pm »
Couldn't find any sign of a queen in the second nuc, I will give them another week and see what eventuates.
If they dont have one I will try and get hold of a mated queen or combine them back with the original hive.

These bees are storing pollen?
Given the time past and queenless it could prove prudent to combine
with the other nuc.

Bill

Offline 220

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Re: Split queen cells question
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2018, 05:22:52 pm »
You dont think they would be receptive to a introduced queen give the lenght of time?

Storms today so wont be doing anything with them, I hope to transfer all three into full size boxes tomorrow.
Had thunder storms roll in yesterday while I was inspecting hives so didnt  get a full inspection done on all my stronger hives. I was half hoping to find some swarm cells to create a few more splits and thinking I would break down the nuc that appears queenless using the resources they have stored to boost along any new splits.

Offline eltalia

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Re: Split queen cells question
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2018, 05:50:45 pm »
@220

Been raining here for three days solid an' looks like breaking today,
so brekky and yard for me.
That nuc...?
I reckon those bees will be getting a bit long in the tooth to be fussing
over a new Maam. May prove to be of more use as foragers/housekeepers
in another colony, numbers wise. Think about it?

Bill

Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: Split queen cells question
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2018, 05:57:17 pm »
220, Bill, you fellas are killing me with envy.  Her I sit in the middle of winter in Arkansas, USA and you fellas are having all the fun: a dandelion in one photo, green grass, pollen, queen cells, capped brood, bees bees bees.  I?ll bet your wearing short sleeves, are ya, well, I will have you to know,  I have to wear a coat to go look at clustered hives.  I just can?t wait for spring.

Thanks for letting me vent.  Just 60 more days and I will be having fun.   Eltalia, Bill, enjoy, have fun with the bees, enjoy the warm gentle winds and sunshine.

Is this a good Honey year in your area?  Looking at lots of honey are ya?  I hope so.
Blessings

Offline 220

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Re: Split queen cells question
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2018, 07:09:24 pm »
Van I dont have enough experience to say with certainty that we are in a great year but it looks that way to me.
I only got started with bees the first week of summer last season and was trying to build numbers and establish hives.
I understand what you are saying about envy, late winter early spring I was reading about other Aussie beekeepers hives building up and working. When others were posting about taking off early crops in mid spring I was still waiting for mine to finishing expanding to fill their brood chambers.
I put the first super on my strongest hive 15th Dec, have extracted 1 deep already from that hive and they 2 more deeps full and nearly capped, I gave then another ideal size box yesterday. Close enough to 60kg in 6 weeks and that is with them having to draw out all the boxes as I didnt have any drawn comb to give them. Similar story with my other hives, once they have filled the brood chamber and I start stacking on supers they are drawing and filling about 10kg per week. How long it will last I cant say, still a bit about for them.

Edit: First picture is a paddock that has been grazed since mid winter, still a bit of dandelion in them. (for some reason it is displaying upside down)
Second pic is a paddock that hasn't had stock in it since early winter, plenty of clover underneath and a bit still flowering along with thistles and other ground cover.
Third is one of the local Eucs that started kicking off a few weeks ago, individual trees only seem to flower for a couple of weeks but there appears to be a month or two spread on them starting.

My placing of supers pretty much coincided with blackberry and the local native dogwood scrub hitting full bloom, as they ended the Eucs were just starting along with the native black thorn.  From my yard everthing to the west is open farm land like the first 2 pictures with small patches of natives and scrub and along creeks. To the west is all forest mostly native but with 25% or more pine plantation. While the pine provides nothing the understory is a inpenetratible tangle of blackberries, dogwood, black thorn and other flowering scrubs.





« Last Edit: January 26, 2018, 08:00:13 pm by 220 »

Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: Split queen cells question
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2018, 08:55:37 pm »
Third pic, local eucs is that eucalyptuses?  What ever, a beautiful tree with lots of flowers.  Thanks 220 for the pics, enlightening it is.  everything I see outside is leafless or brown, that will change soon.
Blessings

Offline 220

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Re: Split queen cells question
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2018, 09:22:51 pm »
Yes Van eucalyptus, in this case narrow leaf peppermint, would currently have a few hundred at least flowering within 1km of my hives. The picture is the lower branches of one that is in the open farmland. They tend to get a lot wider spread when they arent in a stand, that tree would have a 20m+ spread from ground level to it max height of about 30m. In a forest situation they tend to get a single trunk with few lower branches and just a upper canopy. Not a massive nectar and pollen producer but unlike a lot of Eucs will flower annually.

Offline eltalia

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Re: Split queen cells question
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2018, 08:56:00 am »



Thanks for letting me vent.  Just 60 more days and I will be having fun.
 Eltalia, Bill, enjoy, have fun with the bees, enjoy the warm gentle winds and sunshine.
It sure is sunny Van... today This after near a week of patchy rain and the last three
 days - downpour. But today was a "no shirt day". Luckily out here in the boonies
there are no younguns to be traumatised on spotting the shirtless ol' fart workin' bees.
I use a Samsung phone and a Samsung Galaxy tablet to record images.
Today I could get just 3 shots on the tablet before the temperature warning shut it
down. I tried the phone to find it only kept going if I put it in my pocket. It was hot
allright, an' even with a good 10knots of breeze ya still sweat like the beejeebas :-/
Still... it sure beats poloneck sweaters and dodgy furnaces :-)

Quote
Is this a good Honey year in your area?  Looking at lots of honey are ya?  I hope so.
I haven't been to my outyard for a week or so, and with this rain they are bound to
have slowed down some. Here in the home yard I did a full inspection today of all
nursed colonies to find all is good with some features of note worth reporting, one
of which is the advancement of my control skep.  I am playing with three, trying
stuff out. The control is  coming along nicely having started with maybe a thousand
young bees and a newly mated queen back in Nov. 2017, the other two were set in
mid December 2017 and are keeping pace with the control.

...pix of the control skep:
http://tinypic.com/r/9s400m/9
http://tinypic.com/r/msdfrs/9

Bill

Offline 220

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Re: Split queen cells question
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2018, 11:11:01 pm »
Transfered all 3 into 8 Frame boxes today and had a good look at each frame individually.
Nuc with the 10 QC that I spotted eggs in the other day is booming, they had drawn out the extra 5 frames in the second deep nuc box I gave them. The centre 3 frames of the bottom nuc box that I didnt look at the other day were solid with capped brood. Queen obviously got out and mated very quickly. They are looking so strong I gave them a second 8 frame deep.
The other nuc looks like it might have produced a queen as I found a small patch of larvae. Only other possibility would be a laying worker, Im guessing that as a laying worker produces only drones when capped they will look like conventional drone cells? This one wasnt quite as strong so left them as a single 8 frame box.
Original queen went into a 8 frame box as well, when I split I left her with very little. 2 frames of stores and bees with a bit of drawn comb. She is laying in 3 frames and they have 2 frames of stores but her pattern is still patchy.

Offline eltalia

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Re: Split queen cells question
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2018, 12:10:24 am »

@220 wrote in part;
"The other nuc looks like it might have produced a queen as I found a small patch of larvae.
Only other possibility would be a laying worker, Im guessing that as a laying worker produces
 only drones when capped they will look like conventional drone cells? "

Not set in stone it is usual to find laying workers egg/larval to be more or less scattered over a
patch of comb compared to that set pattern of cleaned and freshly laid in cells for a new queen.
Often also eggs are mounted/placed on the cell wall rather that standing at centre of bottom.
To the trained eye the larval stage before capping is also obvious drone larvae. The capping
confirms the observation.
However all of no real consequence at that stage as when some workers choose to don tiaras
- and others pay heed to that pheromone -  the colony is pretty well doomed., the bees
themselves of no use to Man or Beast, as they say.
There are 'fixes', mine own being one that works, however a corporate decision has to be
made around the work versus results.
Rule of thumb for myself is >10K, apply the fix, less than..?.. take 'em for a drive.
.
So, touch wood... you have a newly mated queen who was just a tad shy
 - virgin hystrionics (sp) or paranoid cell aversion ;-)

Bill

Offline 220

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Re: Split queen cells question
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2018, 01:54:24 am »
Yep touch wood I have a laying queen, laying workers seems to pop up fairly often on forums but I have no idea how common it really is.
The odds would be far greater for it to be a mated queen would be my guess considering they did make and cap at least one QC.
Probably wont get a chance to get back into the hive until next weekend, a quick look at the capped cells will tell for sure.