Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: Bush_84 on September 29, 2013, 11:29:26 pm
-
So I have two nucs that I want to heat over the winter. I made this floor and wanted a little input. I'll try to get a picture up to give you a better idea. It's made out of 2x4s. It's insulated with about 2 inches of hard board insulation on the bottom. Over that is some plywood to keep the bulbs off of the insulation. Over that is mesh so the bees can't get down into it. It has small screws holding it down.
My nucs currently have plywood floors that are screwed on. So my first question is, should I find a way to remove the floor? I assume that I'd want to remove the floor but it'd be much easier if I could leave it alone. I could move the bees into the super that I made, which obviously doesn't have a floor. But that also means I have to transfer the bees, which will be a pain lol. If I can simply use the boxes with the floor I can also remove the screen that's on my floor, which will make it easier to change the bulbs. Thought?
-
We may need to wait on Finland for the definitive winter expert :laugh:….. but I’ll take a stab at it in the mean time. :)
First off, what are these “bulbs” you’re talking about? Incandescent light bulbs? We do know incandescents will generate a lot of heat since they’re so inefficient (but this is another story). They will work, but I can see some issues with them.
Maybe a mini DFMEA is in order?
If anything drips on a hot incandescent bulb, poof and the bees freeze.
Light does stimulate the bees. There is a risk you will get them too active.
How are you going to regulate the hive temp? Power cycling bulbs is hard on them. You could put them on a dimmer (TRIAC), but you would still need some way of controlling the TRIAC as a function of temp.
How are you going to avoid electrocution? An exposed broken 120VAC bulb in a wet location is a quick way to go.
I’m not trying to be negative; just pointing out some issues to consider. What I have done over two separate winters is heat some nucs and hives with 12VDC and 24VAC power sources. Those are low voltage circuits and are considered safer than 120VAC because your skin is an insulator at low voltages; provided you’re not dripping wet. If you do use 120VAC, at least have it on a GFCI circuit breaker!
Personally I think there are probably better heat sources than a light bulb. Finski has used aquarium heaters and I have used heaters I built from power resistors (2W resistors in series). I think another relatively safe option would be the use of plumbing heat tape which are probably hitting the shelves in MN about now. Lots of people use those outside in the winter, they are low cost, they have a temperature regulator around 40F, and they are pretty well insulated/safe. I bought some to keep some CU pipes warm last winter for about $25.
You’ll have to provide more detail about your hive design before I can visualize what it looks like. I think a simple pancake shaped heater (potted in cement) would work fine to just slip into the hives bottom entrance. No special bottom system needed. Slip it in, plug it in, and you’re good to go.
My experience would suggest not to overheat the bees in the winter, but the right amount of heat really does wonders!
-
Another couple thoughts safety wise
Pig mats or maybe seed starting mats. Both are made for damp conditions and are gentle sources of warmth.
-
you already have a heater in there you just need to insulate enough so that it can overcome the losses
-
7 watt night lights are a cheap and effective way to add heat.
http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,11721.0.html (http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,11721.0.html)
-
7 watt night lights are a cheap and effective way to add heat.
http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,11721.0.html (http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,11721.0.html)
(http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/4459/c5rf.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/833/c5rf.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
That's why I figured a single 15 watt bulb per hive would work. I'm no good at electrical stuff at all. So if I can't plug it in...it won't work out. Maybe instead of two 15 watt bulbs for two nucs I should use one between the two. Let's see if I can add a picture.
As you can see I will have tin foil over the lights to block out the light.
-
The problem with using one bulb is if (when) it blows there is nothing. That is why I went with two 7 watt bulbs.
-
Resistors don’t blow. :)
Derekm is right about the insulation, but sometimes it’s just simpler and more effective to add electric heat when the colony is small.
I think 10 to 15 watts of heat is the correct ball park for winter. You don’t want it too warm in the winter (IMO) or the pests can keep multiplying and too many bees will fly out to explore the frozen wasteland. I do go with more watts in the spring though. That’s when the bees are really expending a lot of heat (watts) to keep all those frames of brood from freezing. Maintaining a delta T of 50F+ takes a descent amount of bee watts, or electrical watts in the spring.
-
Last winter I experimented with heat cord made for reducing ice dam prevention. It comes in several lengths and is made to be used in wet conditions. I just ran the tape under my hives between the screen board and the base board. On my hive set up all of my hives sit on a screen board on top of a solid base board. I strung the tape along and then shoved a loop of it under each hive. Any time the temp got really low I just went out and plugged it in. Worked great.
-
Well maybe it'd just be easier to just go buy a heat tape then. Less chance of failure as a bulb burning out. I can easily slip that in there.
So back to one of my other questions....remove the floor?
-
bee hive heaters are for sale on ebay I have not used them and a thermostat to soot them and are 12 volt could be powered by a battery charger or car battery only draw 22w see if these will do http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/New-12V-Heater-for-bee-hives-Beekeeping-savings-alot-of-honey-per-season-/380727425835?pt=AU_Business_Industrial_Farming_Agriculture_Farming_Agriculture_Equipment&hash=item58a51f7b2b (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/New-12V-Heater-for-bee-hives-Beekeeping-savings-alot-of-honey-per-season-/380727425835?pt=AU_Business_Industrial_Farming_Agriculture_Farming_Agriculture_Equipment&hash=item58a51f7b2b)
-
I think Finski had successfully used terrarium heaters that sat flat on the bottom board.
-
Yes, Finski used reptile heaters (15W). For one hive this is definitely the easiest way, right on the bottom board. They are not as economical as 7watt night lights if you have many hives you are trying to heat. There are many useful methods, it all comes down to the $$$ you want to spend.
-
My problem is that these are nucs with bottom boards that are nailed on. So I can't just slip those suckers in. I think I may just use that base with bottomless hive bodies and a heat source in that floor I made, unless somebody has a better idea.
-
Yes, Finski used reptile heaters (15W).
I use them in spring build up. Never in wintering.
And not heating on bottom in wintering.
A cluster must have winter rest. Added heat by electric is like a bigger cluster in the hive. Heat comes from side or it is up.
But other sides are cold and bees do not wander around during winter.
I have wintered 2 frame nucs with electric, but problem is that that nuc is not able to start brooding during winter. It is only curiosity and not real wintering. I know the case now and do not mind work with those trouble makers any more. It is easier when you give couple on brood frames to the nuc and the colony is big enough for winter.
If you have for example 3 frames bees, you must first reduce the wintering room to 3 frames.
Then use 3 W heater and put it on the top of frames.
If heating is under the cluster, it breaks the cluster.
During winter I can see that on +C weather bees are spread
quite largely inside the hive, but during -20C they are around the heater like a heater is part of cluster.
In Robo's picture a mesh floor and bottom heating is a strange combination.
When I have solid ply bottom, 15 W heater keeps the whole bottom warm and the ply is very warm on opposite side too.
-
.
Bulbs on bottom
bulbs have certain burning time. Our winter rest period is 7 months long. All bulbs will be dead in that time.
Terrarium heaters are expencive but they all works after 10 years usage.
But actually I do not use them during winter. They are used in spring after cleasing flight.
Furthermore winter rest of cluster should continue a month after cleansing flight and heating the cluster too early is not good idea.
7 months is 5000 hours.
Piece of heating cable
You may do DIY heating caples from piece heating caples. It depends how much cable makes / 4 inches or something.
And guys here have all kinds of MacGyvering.
(http://michaelcavacini.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/macgyver.jpeg)
.
.
-
Oh no, he's BACK :-D
Any snow over there yet Finski?
-
.
I am not back. I am banned.
I came to correct some misunderstandings.
The best way to waste my only life is to discuss about wintering with such guy like you Bluebee. Awful.
You learn nothing with your honey balls.
You America, you no mites
force may be with you
Good blesses only wise guys
.
-
.
Terrarium heaters
http://www.thefind.com/pets/info-heat-mats-reptiles (http://www.thefind.com/pets/info-heat-mats-reptiles)
In lowest line there is a
Mini Heat Mat 4watt 4x7'
$16 Sale
This is proper for winter.
-
When I heated hives/nucs in the winter, my bottom assembly was very similar to the one in Bush_84s photos. However one end was removable so I could repair anything that happened to fail. My heaters were made from 2 watt power resistors (in series) and potted in cement. Failure rate on power resistors is typically over 1,000,000 hours so they are very unlikely to fail. However I kind of hacked together a micro controller to regulate the temps and its MFTB is probably a little lower :); hence a way to access the guts in 0F weather is a good idea.
By potting the resistors in cement, the surface of the whole assembly was relatively cool compared to light bulbs, reptile heaters, Terrarium heaters, etc. This meant the air temp below the bees was never HOT. Just a soothing warmth for the bees to enjoy while consuming honey balls on the holidays.
Putting a heat source ABOVE the bees is a bit crazy, since heat rises…right out of the hive. But if you have a heater with a high surface temp, that might be the most useful way to use them; albeit inefficient.
-
,
There are in catalogue 10$ heating radiator 4 W
Ultratherm Reptile Heat Mat (4) Our Price Only: £9.49 RRP: £13.95 Ultratherm Reptile Heat Mat (4) Product Description : Habistat Ultratherm heat mat, for reptiles that do not require a very high air temperature, eg leopard geckos, corn snakes, king snakes, etc. the heat mat must be no more than half the size of the vivarium base. 4 inch x 5 inch / 4W
I have bent a pocket from offset aluminium cheat. Aluminium sheet spreads the heath to wider area in the hive and protects from burr etc
.
.
-
But I’m not keeping reptiles (or mice), I’m wintering BEES!
(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Electronics/Bee%20Heater%20Construction%202011/beeheater8.jpg)
(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Electronics/Bee%20Heater%20Construction%202011/beeheater9.jpg)
MacGyver Bee Heat Controller
(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Electronics/Nuccontroller1.jpg)
-
Putting a heat source ABOVE the bees is a bit crazy, since heat rises…right out of the hive.
You know, there is an inner cover in the hive and 3 inches insulation in the cover.
Yeah, only 10 years experiences about that. It is very easy to see, how bees react on solutions when you install apparatus and next day you look inside.
Couple years ago I had a 3 frame nuc in my fire wood shelter. It was -20C and I looked inside the hive. Water was drilling out of hive; what a heck is happening.
The nuc had a cluster and half of hive was filled with snowlike ice crystals. Heat of the cluster melted the ice.
I put 3 W heater on top bars. Next time when I looked inside, hive was dry a and not a sign about ice.
I have forgotten a pencil size upper ventilation hole and respiration fumes condensated inside the hive.
.
-
But I’m not keeping reptiles (or mice), I’m wintering BEES!
OH DEAR!
.
-
I kind of miss your humor Finski. :laugh: I'm glad you're not banned for life. X:X
I think we would agree that a top vent is very important. One thing is for sure, my electrically heated hives have been dry. Sometimes I feared they were too dry.
-
I kind of miss your humor Finski. :laugh: I'm glad you're not banned for life. X:X
I hope too. I got blood poisoning into my leg 2 months ago and practically I was out of work the whole August.
I think we would agree that a top vent is very important. One thing is for sure, my electrically heated hives have been dry. Sometimes I feared they were too dry.
I learned via hard way the upper entrance 45 y ago.
Yes but only in solid floor. With mesh floor do not use upper ventilation.
Under snow bees suffer for moisture more than over snow surface.
Bees stand quite much moisture in the hive. Beeks are mad with their condensation talkings.
But upper entrance is essential. No problems if snow stucks the lower entrance.
Mesh floor guys say that they are modern when they use mesh floor.
But I would say that 70 y old beek will not be modern even if theu uses 2 mesh floors.
Floor does not bring honey.
I got on average 100 kg honey/hive this summer. That I say modern.
I bought yesterday a new phone. It has orange cover. Now I am a modern beekeeper. - So easy.
.
.
.
-
Hey BlueBee do you have a circuit diagram for your temperature controller? It looks pretty compact. What are you using for temperature feedback? RTD or thermocouple? The whole setup is intriguing.
Finski, sorry to hear about the blood poisoning. Glad to hear that you recovered well. Glad your back.
I know compared to you guys I don't have any winter but, using a 7W reptile heater I was able to get a baseball sized cluster to thrive. You never know when this information could come in handy.
-
.
Winterfeeding
Just now I use heating to get winter feeding finished.
We got cold weathers, and day temps dropped under 10C. Bees are not able to cap the syrup and they cannot suck it in that temp.
I added 6W heating, but I must add it up to 15W. Couple of guys tried the same and they got the same results . Good good temp, about 15W is enough. Days are about 6C - 10C and nights near zero.
It is too late to feed here but we got very late honey dew yield from aphids. Hives have still brood and empty store combs.
.
-
In Robo's picture a mesh floor and bottom heating is a strange combination.
Yes, that was an attempt to adapt heat to a SBB. I no longer use it (or SBBs). I have now gone to polystyrene nucs with no heat.
-
I have now gone to polystyrene nucs with no heat.
My opinion is that it is absolutely the best solution to winter nucs. Nucs will build up so well that they do not need heating.
I use 3-frame mating nucs. I have splitted them from normal polyboxes. They are so full brood in late summer that in autumn I have difficulties to situate bees somewhere.
But in Spring I use heaters when I feed pollen patty to colonies.
In big colonies early build up is huge, and I can give brood frames to smallest colonies.
- Big colonies in spring patty+heating
- weak colonies under 5 frames, add emerging brood frames.
- Winter- no cold problems.
- Varroa and nosema makes problems.
- I cover winter losses with spare hives (20%).
20% has been a god figure during 40 years.
.
-
I would also concur that a regular foam hive/nuc is all that is necessary for a good sized, and prepared colony. If however you have a small colony (as indicated in the original post) and you live in Minnesota, a normal foam nuc is probably not going to cut it.
I haven’t seen the case where electric heat in the fall is beneficial yet. In the fall the bees are near maximum in numbers and still keeping brood at 95F. If they’re in a foam hive, that combination of population and brooding keeps the hives on the warm side into December.
-
Hey BlueBee do you have a circuit diagram for your temperature controller? It looks pretty compact. What are you using for temperature feedback? RTD or thermocouple? The whole setup is intriguing.
I was just using a 10cent thermistor, 10K nominal resistance at room temp if I recall. Just set up as a voltage divider with a fixed 10K resistor and fed into the ADC port of that microcontroller. That’s just a low cost 8 bit micro. They only cost about $2 in low volumes. I layed out that board for another project and just hacked the bee heater onto the board at the last minute (lol COLD temps). Actually you could make the thing even smaller if designed that way from the start. I would use SMD LEDs and probably replace the electrolytic cap with a Tantalum if doing it again for a bee heater.
The Mega48 has a single ended 8 bit ADC (Analog to Digital Converter) on board. That can divide your temperature range by 256 ideally, but in reality with a voltage divider and thermistor your temperature granularity is pretty large (about 3F) with this setup. If I were going to make more (probably some day) I would try to go with a 12 bit single ended ADC or a 10bit differential ADC. Either way you should then be able to regulate down to 1F granularity, or better. Set that hive temp to about 50F and let those bees bee happy. X:X
The 8/16 bit micros typically are designed for these smallish kind of applications and have port pins that can directly drive LEDs whereas the 32 bit micro often have ports limited to about 2mA of current. May need to add a FET to drive LEDs on such micros, but not a big deal. Either way, there are lots of ways to be creative and low cost with todays microcontrollers.
As Finski says, it’s fun to be a MODERN bee keeper. :)
-
I would also concur that a regular foam hive/nuc is all that is necessary for a good sized, and prepared colony. If however you have a small colony (as indicated in the original post) and you live in Minnesota, a normal foam nuc is probably not going to cut it.
I haven’t seen the case where electric heat in the fall is beneficial yet. In the fall the bees are near maximum in numbers and still keeping brood at 95F. If they’re in a foam hive, that combination of population and brooding keeps the hives on the warm side into December.
just add more insulation
-
I would also concur that a regular foam hive/nuc is all that is necessary for a good sized, and prepared colony. If however you have a small colony (as indicated in the original post) and you live in Minnesota, a normal foam nuc is probably not going to cut it.
I haven’t seen the case where electric heat in the fall is beneficial yet. In the fall the bees are near maximum in numbers and still keeping brood at 95F. If they’re in a foam hive, that combination of population and brooding keeps the hives on the warm side into December.
just add more insulation
Your boath guys are so far from practical
"I haven’t seen the case where electric heat in the fall is beneficial yet"
I just told that it is. You need not to se. Propably you have not tried even.
" In the fall the bees are near maximum in numbers"
Of course it is evebn if has one frane of bees.
If I joind 2 one frame of bees, then they have again maximum.
"brooding keeps the hives on the warm side into December. "
Our brooding should stop in September.
If brooding continues in Finland to December, that hive is dead.
Bluebee, your bees genepool is not suitable to Michigan climate or your accelerate brooding with your thanks giving honey balls.
"Add insulation"
I have insulated hives. If it is not enough, the colony is better to die.
.
Something to learn from you guys, no!
You are willing to learn something, - NO
So I quite from here before I am kicked to my as
-
If however you have a small colony
What is a small colony. Practical minimum size sluster is 5 frames of bees. It means that the colony has had 5 frames of brood before stopping brooding
You may get them over winter alive, but it will have difficulties in spring build up.
If you get 3-frame nuc over winter, it cannot rear brood in spring.
Even if you have one box full of bees in autumn, in spring they may have only handfull. Such is beekeeping and wintering.
But, it is however interesting to try many kind of things and the ,imits of bees.
Part of cluster will die more or less during winter and early spring. If the colony has nosema, feeder bees' gut is not condition and they are very slow to produce new workers. If yiou giuve a frame of emerging bees from strong healthy hive, nosema sick colony will be healed to normal (mostly). Often the queen gets nosema and it stops laying gradually.
It is much more easy to rear a 5 frame cluster for winter than stugle with 2 frame cluster.
But to beginners it seems very often impossible.
I have read from British forum this kind of stories "I have a strong colony. It fills the whole box. Do I split it?"
When I ask, how many brood frames..... Four...
To me strong colony is 7 boxes in summer. And to get that it need to be 15 frames of brood in early summer.
-
.
But now I quit. I have teached heating here for years, but it is totally misunderstood.
So hasta la vista!
.
-
Professor, I listen to my bees and observe. The bees are my teacher. X:X
No I haven’t added heat in the fall because my hives have been PLENTY warm due to the insulation, population, and brooding in the fall. My foam nucs brood up until about November which I think is good for creating winter bees. I haven’t pulled frames in the big hives to see how late they brood because there are MASSIVE amounts of bees in those hives well into the new year. Based on the temperature inside those hives, I would suspect they brood into early December. But since they don’t starve out, it would be logical to assume they are not raising frames and frames of brood. I never feed the big hives honey balls; just the nucs.
Despite my mods, the bees know winter is coming! I can’t fool them that much. How the bees know winter is coming, I don’t know. I would suspect light plays an important role. That would be another reason I would use something other than a light bulb for a heat source. Bees might even bee able to see the shorter wave IR in some of your heaters, I don't know. My heaters are long wave IR.
As for being “far from practical”, it depends on the problem at hand doesn't it? For good sized colonies, foam alone work wells. For small colonies in cold climates, foam + electric works better IMO. I think having the ability to add some electric heat in the event of a really cold spell (predicted for this winter) might be a good insurance plan too.
-
That would be another reason I would use something other than a light bulb for a heat source.
I saw no issues with the light. In fact, I found many cases where the queen would come down to the bottom of the frame (right above the light) to lay. They must of preferred the benefit of the heat over any dislike for the light. I never saw any indication of trying to block the light with propolis as they do with other things they are not happy with.
-
Hey BlueBee do you have a circuit diagram for your temperature controller? It looks pretty compact. What are you using for temperature feedback? RTD or thermocouple? The whole setup is intriguing.
I was just using a 10cent thermistor, 10K nominal resistance at room temp if I recall. Just set up as a voltage divider with a fixed 10K resistor and fed into the ADC port of that microcontroller. That’s just a low cost 8 bit micro. They only cost about $2 in low volumes. I layed out that board for another project and just hacked the bee heater onto the board at the last minute (lol COLD temps). Actually you could make the thing even smaller if designed that way from the start. I would use SMD LEDs and probably replace the electrolytic cap with a Tantalum if doing it again for a bee heater.
The Mega48 has a single ended 8 bit ADC (Analog to Digital Converter) on board. That can divide your temperature range by 256 ideally, but in reality with a voltage divider and thermistor your temperature granularity is pretty large (about 3F) with this setup. If I were going to make more (probably some day) I would try to go with a 12 bit single ended ADC or a 10bit differential ADC. Either way you should then be able to regulate down to 1F granularity, or better. Set that hive temp to about 50F and let those bees bee happy. X:X
The 8/16 bit micros typically are designed for these smallish kind of applications and have port pins that can directly drive LEDs whereas the 32 bit micro often have ports limited to about 2mA of current. May need to add a FET to drive LEDs on such micros, but not a big deal. Either way, there are lots of ways to be creative and low cost with todays microcontrollers.
As Finski says, it’s fun to be a MODERN bee keeper. :)
If you burnt that interface board, good job. That's an impressive little chip. Nice instruction set, looks like Basic. Serial interface. I never considered making my own controller. With the relative low cost of some PLC's like the Seimens LOGO. I now see that I can go way lower on cost. You got me thinking about the possibility's. SCR Control of low voltage AC. Thanks.
-
Professor, I listen to my bees and observe. The bees are my teacher. X:X
Now I must say, it is time to buy couple of beekeeping books.
You hear voices...öh
.
-
.
Despite my mods, the bees know winter is coming! .
And you just said that they make brood in December...Clear your head man.
This discussion ...God Lord, I cannot say it...
.
-
.
Despite my mods, the bees know winter is coming! .
And you just said that they make brood in Decembed...Clear your head man.
This discussion ...God Lord, I cannot say it...
.
Just having fun Finski. Might not be practical but fun. :-D
-
I never considered making my own controller. With the relative low cost of some PLC's like the Seimens LOGO. I now see that I can go way lower on cost. You got me thinking about the possibility's. SCR Control of low voltage AC. Thanks.
I haven’t used the Siemans LOGO, but it looks pretty capable too. Quite often the best solution for a problem comes down to time (time = money). If one solution is going to be much faster to implement than another, then a higher upfront cost may be the better solution. The LOGO already comes with buttons and a display unit which is nice.
On the other hand, with a little time and a little skill you can make your own custom controller for a much lower cost. In volumes of 50 to 100, a person could probably make their own system for under $5 a unit. That’s without a display, buttons, or fancy case. Buttons and cases are quite often more than the electronics! I would forget a LCD display in the north. They freeze up (L= Liquid!) in the winter and are useless outside. Go with RS485 to a PC, or USB, or hard coded with no display other than some status LEDs which cost pennies.
A single one of these low cost microcontroller chips typically have 20 to 30 I/O pins that can turn on/off 20 heaters if you want. If your heat source is being powered by DC (say 12VDC), the best switch is a low cost couple amp nFET. If your heat source is a being powered by AC, then you could either use a relay or a TRIAC (back to back SCRs).
Finally paint it orange to look MODERN. :)
-
Finally paint it orange to look MODERN. :)
;D Just can't help yourself can you.
Anyway, BlueBee did you make or buy the interface card the chip was mounted on?
-
Professor, I listen to my bees and observe. The bees are my teacher. X:X
Now I must say, it is time to buy couple of beekeeping books.
I did enjoy Brother Adam’s bee keeping book and base many of my bee keeping habits on his methods. However I seem to recall you’re not too fond of British bee keeping either :? Maybe I need a bee keeping book from Finland. :) Are you going to write one? My guess is you could write a very entertaining book.
Ray, I lay out my own boards for these little projects. They’re just two layer boards. You don’t really need separate power and ground planes for such a basic system. There are sites on the web where you can layout a board and they’ll machine it for you and ship you the board(s) at a pretty low cost.
I’m not planning on heating any hives this winter. However if I ramp up nuc production next year, I will probably build a number of heaters just for an insurance policy against bitter cold spells and to boost spring buildup. I was pretty impressed with the result of a little spring heating last year.
-
I did enjoy Brother Adam’s bee keeping book and base many of my bee keeping habits on his methods.
.
Brother Adam was a German, and he moved to south England. On that area bees can forage pollen in January.
Mr Adam tells about "severe winter, where temps go even near freezing point".
To me electrict heating teached how really important the heat is for bees.
None of books handle heat economy of beehive in spring build up.
The most amazing thing is that heating gives the biggest advantage to the biggest hives. But it happens after that when the hive have new nurser bees in spring and it does not limit brood rearing.
The cause to that is the formula of ball volume.
When by the help of heat radius grows, how much grows the brood ball volume
(http://www.instructables.com/files/deriv/FCL/Z80O/FQR1WT87/FCLZ80OFQR1WT87.LARGE.jpg)
An advantage to small colonies is that you may give a frame of emerging brood from bigger hive and heating keeps brood alive. Otherwise big part of brood will die when you give it to a small colony. When I started the heating 10 years ago in April, the nights were often -6C even if days were +10C.
The best way to build up small colonies is to give brood frames.
They do not react much on patty or heating because their ability to make brood area is almost zero. And the cycle of brood is long = 3 weeks.
In my climate brood amount in May rules in honey yield. Eggs are foragers 6-7 weeks later. It is 1,5 month.
If you have 15 frames brood in the middle of May, I have 5-6 boxes bees at the beginning of July.
If I have 2 brood frames, after 1,5 months the colony has so much foragers that it can feed enlargening brood area.
All is consumed to rearing of brood.
.
But if the bees makes to you only fun, it is same what you do with them. Then it is better to search Welsh jokes. They have much funny stories about sheeps.
.
.
During winter bees must have winter rest and they are better be in cluster. If they are active during winter, bees will be short life.
.
-
Who these things often explode quite quickly. So I plop down heat ape in there instead of light bulbs. Great. I get a 30 watt heat tape. Great. So what about the bottom? I am not sure that I have seen a response to that. There's already a bee proof screen on there. So do I put a bottomless nuc on there or do I just keep them in the nuc with the solid bottom? I am leaning towards just leaving them in the solid bottom board nuc they are in.
-
I think Finski said he heats from the top! When I heat, I heat from the bottom and I have used a box very similar to your photo. However there is a potential problem with that design. If the hive is warm enough for wax moth larvae to move around (chased by the bees), they will find their way through the screen and multiply down below if you keep it too warm. The wax moth larvae really enjoy a nice heat source too and the easy food (debris) down there. If anything gets into the heater box, they are free from harassment by the bees.
IF you can fit the heat tape on a solid bottom board (and I think you should be able to) that is probably a superior approach. As long as the surface temp of the heater isn’t so hot it starts cooking bees or starts a hydrocarbon fire! Might be an ordinance against that. ;)
-
Finski, my bees use this equation
E = m*c*c
to keep warm :)
-
I get a 30 watt heat tape.
Unless you're using a temp controller, 30W is too much.
Solid bottom and just put the heat tape on top of the bottom (below the frames)
-
Again this bottom is sealed to the box. The entrance is a 7/8 inch hole. I would almost have to jam it down the side to get it in. It's a tight fit.
Also I thought most said to use 15 watts per hive? There are two hives that go on that stand. So that's 15 watts per stand.
I also plan on putting a shim over the nucs and filling it with sugar for the bees to munch on. So heat above the sugar will likely do them very little good.
-
Again this bottom is sealed to the box. The entrance is a 7/8 inch hole. I would almost have to jam it down the side to get it in. It's a tight fit.
Also I thought most said to use 15 watts per hive? There are two hives that go on that stand. So that's 15 watts per stand.
I also plan on putting a shim over the nucs and filling it with sugar for the bees to munch on. So heat above the sugar will likely do them very little good.
Now Bush, be carefull what you read. It seems that you are not enough experinenced to understand what others are telling.
Natural heat production of winter cluster is 3-6W in autumn. In spring when bees have brood, the food consumptiong is really something else.
Important is that bee cluster stay in peace during winter rest. YOu cannot tamper resting hives like Bluebees seems to do.
15 W is too much to wintering. I use 6-15 W in spring when I feed pollen patty to hives to get early build up.
- in winter 3W is good heat aid to nucs in winter
- first, use insulated hive; after that use electrict. And restrict the bee room to minimum.
- in winter, do not heat cluster. Heath the upper part or side of the cluster like it were a bigger part of cluster.
If you heat cluster, winter reast is not any more in natural control.
Like in winter shelters, air must be under +7C the room.
When you put a heater to the wintering hive, it is easy to chek, do heater brake the cluster or not. You just lift the cover next day.
.
-
.
I have heated hives 10 years and I have told many times what I do.
I know very well how it work in my cold climate. In warmer climate it is a danger, that heating makes harm when it disturbes winter rest.
I have seen how bees walk along the hive in over heated hive. It is easy to see. They should all be in solid cluster and very quiet.
But my climate is not so exceptional. I have only 3 months when temps are almost all the time under 0C. Most of winter has bare ground and temps -5C to +5C. If I cover hives with snow, it is possible only 2 months period.
BUT, many in this forum has twisted my sayings on purpose so that I have never did what they write.
Only purpose has been tease me on forum. But at same time to give wrong information to guys.
Thanks to all tontos for that.
And funny thing is that guys cannot make difference with "winter" and "spring".
I use heaters in spring build up 2 months, and that is very different than wintering. .
My bee wintering rest time is from October to May. It makes 7 months. And bees live with normal sugar 8-9 months. At the beginning of May they start to get willow pollen.
.
-
Finski, my bees use this equation
E = m*c*c
to keep warm :)
Blue,
I don't know much about physics, but I have managed to master basic math, order of operations. :-D
"E = M *C*C" is NOT the same as "E = MC^2" or "E = M*(C*C)"
Thank God Albert Einstein didn't use your formula....no telling what the repercussions would have been. :lau:
-
Again this bottom is sealed to the box. The entrance is a 7/8 inch hole. I would almost have to jam it down the side to get it in. It's a tight fit.
Also I thought most said to use 15 watts per hive? There are two hives that go on that stand. So that's 15 watts per stand.
I also plan on putting a shim over the nucs and filling it with sugar for the bees to munch on. So heat above the sugar will likely do them very little good.
I agree with Finski, 15 watts is too much for a nuc. I used two 7 watt bulbs on two 10 frame deeps. As for your nuc design goes, it sounds like it is not very accomodation for heat. I would suggest moving them to a 10 frame deep with normal bottom board and reducing the space to just 5 frames by using rigid insulation. search on some of Finski's posts, he has shown pictures of reducing a colony down with insulation board. That way you can but the heat on the bottom board.
-
Congratulations Moots, you just failed 2nd grade multiplication.
It’s called the associative property of multiplication. http://www.aaamath.com/pro74bx2.htm (http://www.aaamath.com/pro74bx2.htm)
Do you really want to debate me on Math and Science?
-
IMO, the real goal of electric heat for wintering is to maintain the temperature in the hive around 45 to 50F (or Finski’s +7C). How many watts that requires is completely dependent upon the temperature outside and the insulation you have. A well insulated box might get by with 6 watts on an average winter day whereas a wood box might need 30 watts.
The wattage needed to maintain +7C, varies with temperature (heat loss = function of delta T). So you can’t just say 6Watts, or 9 watts, or 15watts will work in all cases. It is best to include a thermostat in your design and have the capacity of extra watts if the thermostat needs them. Kind of like having a V8 under the hood just in case.
IMO, the 30 watt heat tape should be fine if it is the stuff used to keep pipes from freezing. I believe they have a thermostat set at about 42F. So you don’t get 30 watts ALL the time. I've used that stuff to keep copper pipes from freezing before.
-
IMO, the real goal of electric heat for wintering is to maintain the temperature in the hive around 45 to 50F (or Finski’s +7C).
Good heavens. I have not said anything like that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
.
-
IMO, the real goal of electric heat for wintering is to maintain the temperature in the hive around 45 to 50F (or Finski’s +7C). How many watts that requires is completely dependent upon the temperature outside and the insulation you have. A well insulated box might get by with 6 watts on an average winter day whereas a wood box might need 30 watts.
The wattage needed to maintain +7C, varies with temperature (heat loss = function of delta T). So you can’t just say 6Watts, or 9 watts, or 15watts will work in all cases. It is best to include a thermostat in your design and have the capacity of extra watts if the thermostat needs them. Kind of like having a V8 under the hood just in case.
IMO, the 30 watt heat tape should be fine if it is the stuff used to keep pipes from freezing. I believe they have a thermostat set at about 42F. So you don’t get 30 watts ALL the time. I've used that stuff to keep copper pipes from freezing before.
Good heavens what dangerous rubbish!!!
You really want to kill anothers' colonies.
You really have a bad dyslexia. You are not able to understand what I write.
And you do not understand that if control mechanism fails, system kills the hives.
.
I have written all the time about spring build up and you write about wintering with same heating values.
Bluebee, what is your experience about the issue. It seems that you have not at all
You are really dangerous Master of Beekeeping.
-
Finski, my bees use this equation
E = m*c*c
to keep warm :)
YOur head is runing with speed of light. Your bees use flying muscles to produce heat.
.
-
Congratulations Moots, you just failed 2nd grade multiplication.
It’s called the associative property of multiplication. http://www.aaamath.com/pro74bx2.htm (http://www.aaamath.com/pro74bx2.htm)
Do you really want to debate me on Math and Science?
Blue,
Touché...You are correct, Congratulations! :)
After all this time on the forum, it's nice to finally see you right about something! :-D
So.....Since you on a roll...How are you coming with that list you promised me detailing ALL the things your buddy Obama has done to cause the rise in the stock market?
-
Do you really want to debate me on Math and Science?
Remember, you cannot win stupid persons in debating.
.
-
.
But if you guys are not able to learn via others' experiences, life teaches.
.
-
.
I have this kind of cables (15W)
Cable is 10 feet. If you put 2 feet into hive, it gives 3W heat.
cable is water tight and very durable. My all cables are in condition after 10 years.
You may even warm up water with this. I use it in uncapping container.
(http://www.thermopads.com/images/silicone2.jpg)
-
I have written all the time about spring build up and you write about wintering with same heating values.
Bluebee, what is your experience about the issue. It seems that you have not at all
I’ve only applied electric heat to SOME of my bees over 3 different winters. As I’ve tried to report many times, my primary wintering method is insulation; not electric. However it sounds like I have seen more in my 3 years with electric heat than some have seen in 10 years. :laugh:
My goal is not to winter my bees with electric heat. As I’ve said, I’m not even experimenting with electric heat this winter at all (kinda busy with other things). In the future, if I expand my nuc operations my plans would be to add some insurance to such a business. Most good business guys/gals like to maximize yields, right? It’s the bitter cold spells that take out nuc sized colonies of bees. If those spells can be moderated with electric heat, I think your yields go up with very little cost. I would probably program my controllers to turn on when the outside temp dips down below 10F, or -12C.
15watts of electrical heat is VERY economical. Say my winter insurance plan consists of 15watts x maybe 10 hours a day x maybe 6 weeks of bitter cold = 6300 watt-hours for winter insurance. Electric sells for 12 cents per kilowatt-hour here. So my winter insurance plan for nucs would cost me about 75 cents. A live spring nuc is worth how much? About $100. A dead spring nuc is worth about how much? I think even Moots would agree that is a good insurance plan!
Let’s not lose sight of the original poster! He was looking for advice on how to winter some bees with electric; not heating them in the spring.
-
Let’s not lose sight of the original poster! He was looking for advice on how to winter some bees with electric; not heating them in the spring.
God Bless American beekeeping.
I came here to correct those wat figures which were all the time wrong in this thread.
But I di not come here to waste my only life with the guys like you Blubee.
-
I just want to thank all the posters in this thread. It has been informative and entertaining. Such passion over a concept that appears to really quite simple. Cutting through all the fluff, which is the entertainment portion, I walk away with this data:
1. Winter heating of a robust colony, with ample stores, is not needed. Even in the coldest parts of the beekeeping world.
2. If you live in such areas the best way to reduce winter stress is to use well insulated hives.
3. Air flow, ventilation, through the winter is critical to colony survival because it prevents/reduces condensation and keeps the cluster dry.
4. If you want experiment with or nurture a very small colony through the coldest parts of an extreme northern winter with temps running consistently below 0 degF you need only to add enough power, watts, to maintain the air temperature around the cluster at 45 to 50 degF. However, this is just an experiment. The best practice is to have the conditions stated in the first three points.
5. Heating a hive, in a far northern climate, serves it's greatest purpose to stimulate brood rearing in the spring. This basically jump starts the colony in preparation for the short northern nectar flow season. Timing this manipulation is important and weather changes can get you in trouble.
6. Looks like the best option for additional heat would be the heat strips used to prevent pipes from freezing because they have a built in regulator. Without some control device the other methods are an all or nothing system.
Was I understanding this right? Did I miss something? Oh yeah, BlueBee is a democrat. :-D Moots doesn't like democrats. :-D Finski feels like he is waisting his time. :-x
Go ahead and beat me up if I missed something. Where I live most of it doesn't really apply but it still makes for a good read. Thanks again.
Ray
-
Lets keep the political stuff in the coffee house. This is a good time appropriate thread with good information. lets not taint it with taunting and jabbing.
-
6. Looks like the best option for additional heat would be the heat strips used to prevent pipes from freezing because they have a built in regulator. Without some control device the other methods are an all or nothing system.
OH MY GOODNESSSSSSSS
So say a guy who has not a smallest experience about heating.
Why guys try to be smarter than they are?
Self made electrict control system in moist environment! ...They really are not needed.
- 15W
- winter
- under cluster
- all are totally wrong
Where hell you need control system, when whole system has wrong setup?
I do not know what to say. Hopeless.
S:O:S
.
.
-
Thanks for the correction Finski. As I stated in my post I was trying to recount what I took away from all the other previous information.
Your correct, I don't have any experience but I wasn't posting as if I did.
At least I got some of it right. ;)
-
Lets keep the political stuff in the coffee house. This is a good time appropriate thread with good information. lets not taint it with taunting and jabbing.
buzzbee- I wasn't trying to misdirect the thread. I was just poking fun. But, if my post is what your talking about, sorry Ken. Understood.
-
.
I have this kind of cables (15W)
Cable is 10 feet. If you put 2 feet into hive, it gives 3W heat.
cable is water tight and very durable. My all cables are in condition after 10 years.
You may even warm up water with this. I use it in uncapping container.
(http://www.thermopads.com/images/silicone2.jpg)
Would something like this work?
http://www.heaterzone.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=5W%2F120V%2FC%2FCR&CartID=1 (http://www.heaterzone.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=5W%2F120V%2FC%2FCR&CartID=1)
-
RH, I was referring to a previous post, but it is a good time appropriate thread for those interested. :)
-
http://www.menards.com/main/plumbing/rough-plumbing/pipe-tubing-fittings/pipe-insulation-heat-cables/heat-cables/9-pipe-heating-cable-for-use-on-metal-or-rigid-plastic-pipe/p-192096-c-8588.htm (http://www.menards.com/main/plumbing/rough-plumbing/pipe-tubing-fittings/pipe-insulation-heat-cables/heat-cables/9-pipe-heating-cable-for-use-on-metal-or-rigid-plastic-pipe/p-192096-c-8588.htm)
Something like that is what I plan on buying. Turns on at 38 degrees. I'm all for "winter rest" but I don't believe temps down to -30 are good for bees. They can still still keep their cluster but they won't get the stress of frigid temps.
-
Yep, that’s the stuff. There is a bulge in the cord near the power connection; that is where the thermostat electronics are located. You want to make sure the bulge is inside the hive and not outside. I would probably try to stuff the entire thing inside your bottom board (or heater box) if you could for electrical safety. The connection between your extension cord and the heater cable would likely remain drier inside the hive as long as you have a top vent; but that is another topic!
At least power the thing from a GFCI protected circuit as required by code in wet locations or garages. There's virtually no inductance or capacitance in those heater cords so they're not going to falsely trip GFCIs.
-
.
When I started spring heating in the half April 2003, I saw quite quickly how it works.
Later I could see that in big hives' heating + pollen patty feeding gov 3-fold amount of brood compared to natural build up.
The basic is the sphere volume formula, why it happens. Heating teaches the meaning of heat to the hive build up.
With heat I may keep alive 1 or 2 frame nucs over winter, but they are not able to make brood in spring. So I must take new bees from big hives and that is not good at all.
Heating does not help small colonies, and neither patty feeding. Only good method is to take emerging brood from bigger hives and kick up the nuc this way.
These are my results from issue in a nut shell.
I do not comment any more this issue. I am really tired to stupid wheel inventing and spamming in this forum.
I got 200 lbs honey per hive this summer. I hope Bluebee that you got 600 lbs because you are so quickly to learn everything.
.
-
The connection between your extension cord and the heater cable would likely remain drier inside the hive as long as you have a top vent; but that is another topic!
Even if you have top vent, condensation water and expanded syrup drills quite much onto bottom during winter. Hive is far from dry place.
When I look inside the hive during frost, ice sticks are hanging from lower parts of frames and often floor is covered with thick ice.
.
-
Ice Sticks? LOL, are you kidding me? Clearly you need more wattage!
One other thing to be wary of with electric power cords is rodents and rabbits love to chew on them; especially the orange colored ones. Make sure the mice can't get into your nucs around the cables. Keep an eye out for rabbits and bee keepers ;)
But I did not come here to waste my only life with the guys like you .
Ever consider becoming a Buddhist :laugh:
-
Ice Sticks? LOL, are you kidding me? Clearly you need more wattage!
I have said 15 times that I do not over winter hive with electrict. I use heaters in April and May.
What you need is
1) more experience in basic beekeeping
2) skill to read, and especially understand what others write.
3) get some beekeeping books and learn basics of beekeeping.
4) check medication
5) learn to make difference with SPRING and WINTER
One other thing to be wary of with electric power cords is rodents and rabbits love to chew on them; especially the orange colored ones. Make sure the mice can't get into your nucs around the cables. Keep an eye out for rabbits and bee keepers ;)
Rabit advice is really good. Problem is that we have not rabbits.
.To mice I feed poison, not heating cables.
.Yes, I keep eye on beekeepers if they are woman. One is and she is 68 y old.
.
Your desire to spam everything has enormous dimensions.
What you can do is go to USA Got Talent TV program to show your stand up comics skills
.
-
Wow! This was an impressive thread to read. I have to say that I have learned something, adding heat to the cluster in the spring to help with the build up. Now I have to share what I know from my father.
My father read an article written by a researcher during the communist regime, when beekeeping was strongly encouraged in my country (Romania), about the benefits of heating the hives during winter. The researcher used regular foundation wire zigzagged on a bottom board, totaling 10W at 12V, painted (because he used galvanized wire, and it still rusts). He also used a microcontroller with a temperature sensor placed in the middle of the hive towards the back, outside of the cluster (middle on the vertical and lateral, towards the back longitudinal). The microcontroller will turn on the heater by a relay, only when the temperature was below +6C. This prevented too much activity from the bees and less food used to keep warm in too cold days or nights. Basically, he tried to emulate the conditions of an indoor wintering, when the bees stay at a constant temperature. The researcher weighed the hives before and after, he set up different temperatures in different hives, no heater in others, did all sorts of variations to see what works best. So it wasn't just guess work, it was research, and he published the results. So, my father built similar heaters, used a thermostat, and he wintered hives that would have died otherwise. He had no winter mortality for many years until the varroa became a big problem (got resistant to the treatments). He also reduces the space inside the hive to the frames the bees completely cover, so they have less space to heat up, he uses only one entrance, situated at 2/3 from the bottom (a bit higher than the Hoffman line) and he heavily insulates the inner cover to eliminate condensation.
So I have decided this winter to experiment a bit with his setup and add a little more to it, since technology has advanced since that research was done. I have ordered parts for 5 bottom heaters: 5 temperature sensors, 5 relay boards (unfortunately the relay boards were returned to sender by customs - stupid bleep happens in Canada). I have plenty of Arduino compatible microcontrollers, since my other hobby is robotics. I have also bought 4 humidity/temperature sensors and another one that works to lower temperatures (to keep track of the outside values). I want to use these last sensors placed on top of the hive, in the hole I have in the inner cover, below the insulation, to measure the amount of the humidity and temperature variance in the hives with different entrances. All the data will be logged by date and hour into a micro SD card by the microcontroller so I can read it later and plot a graph and see what setup works best for my location. I don't have all the parts yet to actually place the setup in the hives yet, but I will probably start with the humidity sensors and add the heaters later when the temp sensors and the relay modules will come in. I will take pictures and post the data collected, so there is no guess involved. I will also weigh the hives at the time I will start the experiment and weigh them again at the end, to see the food consumption. If you have suggestions of what I should also record, or other things I should try, please let me know. I may be able to add them to the experiment. Thanks.
-
OK, as someone who deals with electronics daily (safety first), and as someone whose job it is to anticipate worst-case failure modes (broadcast station reliability and the ability of the hired help employed there to destroy absolutely anything with nothing), and as a beekeeper last:
Forget light bulbs
Forget running whatever you use on 120 (240 in Europe) volts; my preference would be a 12-volt system.
Here's my thoughts
Make up a bottom board that is about an inch deeper than normal
Place 4 25-ohm, 10 watt resistors in a square pattern, 1/3 and 2/3 of the distance lengthwise and widthwise from the edges
Wire them in parallel and bring wires out the rear, then pour the board full of epoxy resin to cover resistors and wires.
Set a 2-pole male connector in a recess in the rear of the bottom board (NOT a 'standard' plug !!!) and you can then run a master power cord, with mating receptacles, across behind a row of hives.
A 'metering cable' could be made up that can be inserted between the master cord and each individual bottom board periodically, to make sure current is being drawn and thus heat produced.
I calculate the heating power of the proposed bottom board to be as follows:
12V / 25 ohms = 0.48 amps per resistor
0.48 x 0.48 x 25 = 5.76 watts per resistor. Times 4 = 23 watts approximately
Further refinement would be a master controller that adjusts voltage to the common power cord as outdoor temperatures change.
Just my $ 0.02..................
-
We may need to wait on Finland for the definitive winter expert :laugh:….. but I’ll take a stab at it in the mean time. :)
First off, what are these “bulbs” you’re talking about? Incandescent light bulbs? We do know incandescents will generate a lot of heat since they’re so inefficient (but this is another story). They will work, but I can see some issues with them.
Maybe a mini DFMEA is in order?
If anything drips on a hot incandescent bulb, poof and the bees freeze.
Light does stimulate the bees. There is a risk you will get them too active.
How are you going to regulate the hive temp? Power cycling bulbs is hard on them. You could put them on a dimmer (TRIAC), but you would still need some way of controlling the TRIAC as a function of temp.
How are you going to avoid electrocution? An exposed broken 120VAC bulb in a wet location is a quick way to go.
I’m not trying to be negative; just pointing out some issues to consider. What I have done over two separate winters is heat some nucs and hives with 12VDC and 24VAC power sources. Those are low voltage circuits and are considered safer than 120VAC because your skin is an insulator at low voltages; provided you’re not dripping wet. If you do use 120VAC, at least have it on a GFCI circuit breaker!
Personally I think there are probably better heat sources than a light bulb. Finski has used aquarium heaters and I have used heaters I built from power resistors (2W resistors in series). I think another relatively safe option would be the use of plumbing heat tape which are probably hitting the shelves in MN about now. Lots of people use those outside in the winter, they are low cost,
they have a temperature regulator around 40F, and they are pretty well insulated/safe. I bought some to keep some CU pipes warm last winter for about $25.
You’ll have to provide more detail about your hive design before I can visualize what it looks like. I think a simple pancake shaped heater (potted in cement) would work fine to just slip into the hives bottom entrance. No special bottom system needed. Slip it in, plug it in, and you’re good to go.
My experience would suggest not to overheat the bees in the winter, but the right amount of heat really does wonders!
hi I just bought 1/4 watt resistors to make a 15 watt heat mat for bees.60 resistors per mat and size like 10x15 inches.
I was thinking to wire them in parallel not in series as you .did. Can you pls tell me if series would be
and how did you cover the resistors?
better?