adding a full super?

[Linda M.]

Hi,
 One of my hives is low on stores - seems to be doing well and a good size hive of bees (going into their 4th winter). I have (2) 8 frame brood boxes and a honey super on top. I don't have scales but tipping it feels top heavy some what and seems like the brood boxes are very light.I was feeding all my hives and the other 10 are heavy enough for winter. This one......too light! I can't feed syrup anymore because of this cold weather and I put the quilt boxes on with sugar cakes Sunday. Last year I had a hive light and they hung out on the sugar all winter clustered, and they made it through the long winter (of course I had to add a lot of sugar too). I just happen to have a couple full supers in my basement and I was thinking of adding one to this hive. Then, I'll have (2) seems to be, empty brood boxes with two supers on top. Might be too much room but they'll have food. What would you do? Friday is going to be warm and I can add it or I can let them eat sugar all winter.
  Thanks!

[iddee]

I would add it, and if ""warm"" is above 55 F., I would remove any "TOTALLY" empty brood boxes and put them back on in early spring.

PS. Remove ALL excluders before winter.

[TheHoneyPump]

I would not add a super. I would open the hive to go in and remove empty frames and replace them with honey frames.  I would also reduce them into two boxes while I was at it.
If I was concerned they are going to starve, it does not matter the weather or what winterizing config of the hive is in place.
Imho

[iddee]

From what I understand from the OP is she has 2 honey supers with bees and honey, 2 deep brood boxes empty, 2 honey supers full in storage.  If you are telling her to leave the 2 honey supers and only replace the empty frames, or telling her to put medium or shallow frames of honey i deep boxes, I think you should rethink your advice.  I also don't think 2 honey supers alone is not sufficient to get a hive through a New York winter. 4 honey supers, 2 totally full and the bees and whatever is in the lower 2 would be enough.

[TheHoneyPump]

For clarity.  End result would be two deeps with 70 lbs of stores.  The whole hive, 2 deeps 8F, board and covers included will weight 140+ lbs.

[iddee]

Only if the frames of honey added were deeps.

[Linda M.]

 Thanks! I think I'll do what Iddee wrote - my two 8 frame boxes are deeps that seems to be very light with a tip test....then I have a med honey super on top of those two full. Sorry I didn't clarify. I'll put one of my full med honey supers I have in the basement I took off a couple weeks ago and put on top -  we should have a nice day before winter to take off one of the deep brood boxes. I didn't think to do that I guess - I was just worried of too much room but taking one of the brood boxes would be a good idea!
 

[BeeMaster2]

Bee sure to freeze the boxes before you store them. Otherwise the wax moths and SHB will destroy them. 
Jim

[beepro]

If the bees move upward toward the top box then you can also add
the sugar bricks on the top bars.   This will serve as an insurance just in case.  Then you
don't have to baby sit them all winter long.

[blackforest beekeeper]

If the bees move upward toward the top box then you can also add
the sugar bricks on the top bars.   This will serve as an insurance just in case.  Then you
don't have to baby sit them all winter long.

why don`t your bees put in enough stores for the winter? either by a flow or by an artificial flow created by you? they should be able to. and if they are not able to, they got a problem.

[beepro]

During the winter I like to collect all the drawn comb to put them in storage.  Because the wax
months can destroy the unattended drawn comb in the hives in our warmer than usual winter months.  Right now it is
supposed to be cooler but it is still in the 80s sometime.   So not much feeding for the extra honey frames in
the hives.   My bees don't cluster during the winter months.   This year it is warmer than usual, again.  Why feed them to
weight when they will use it up for brood build up.  I like a smaller brood nest during the winter months here.  It is better to
give them the patty subs and sugar bricks instead.   Only in our bee environment!

[MikeyN.C.]

My 2 cents , East coast totally different from West coast.

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Beepro{My bees don't cluster during the winter months.}. Sounds like Southern California or close to ocean.   Beepro: How often does it frost or maybe better stated does it frost???  Also just courious how many pounds of honey per average hive, 10 frame Lang, to winter?

[Ben Framed]

@ TheHoneyPump  Mr Claude,  I was looking at the picture that you have on your profile heading. That is amazing!
How many supers of honey do you have stacked on those hives?  Also, the picture is so vastly taking in the surrounding scenery of the area. I love the wide open spaces!! Is that goldenrod? I tried zooming in but couldn't quite make out the details of the  blooms.  Thanks,  Phillip Hall

[TheHoneyPump]

@ TheHoneyPump  Mr Claude,  I was looking at the picture that you have on your profile heading. That is amazing!
How many supers of honey do you have stacked on those hives?  Also, the picture is so vastly taking in the surrounding scenery of the area. I love the wide open spaces!! Is that goldenrod? I tried zooming in but couldn't quite make out the details of the  blooms.  Thanks,  Phillip Hall

10 frame deeps Langstroth. 
Single brood box on bottom (under the foreground foliage), queen excluder, then 5 supers on top.  6 boxes high.   The field is canola.

The hives come out of frozen snowy winter at end of April.  Typically 4 frames of bees and 1 frame of brood at that time.  Properly managed and supported, by 1st week of July they are bursting with bees, have been supered up to 5 or more boxes high, and the foraging force is maturing to peaking 2nd week of July and on from there.  Success is all about the timing.  Supporting them with plenty of resources inside the hive (feed) when the population is low and not foraging much, to giving them the room to expand exponentially and peak right when the flow fully turns on for our 3 weeks of summer.  It is all over by Aug 15, and we drive them back down into single brood box for winter by middle of September.  Snow on the ground before Halloween.

[blackforest beekeeper]

@ TheHoneyPump  Mr Claude,  I was looking at the picture that you have on your profile heading. That is amazing!
How many supers of honey do you have stacked on those hives?  Also, the picture is so vastly taking in the surrounding scenery of the area. I love the wide open spaces!! Is that goldenrod? I tried zooming in but couldn't quite make out the details of the  blooms.  Thanks,  Phillip Hall

10 frame deeps Langstroth. 
Single brood box on bottom (under the foreground foliage), queen excluder, then 5 supers on top.  6 boxes high.   The field is canola.

when does your canola bloom? is it sowed in spring or in fall?

[TheHoneyPump]

@ TheHoneyPump  Mr Claude,  I was looking at the picture that you have on your profile heading. That is amazing!
How many supers of honey do you have stacked on those hives?  Also, the picture is so vastly taking in the surrounding scenery of the area. I love the wide open spaces!! Is that goldenrod? I tried zooming in but couldn't quite make out the details of the  blooms.  Thanks,  Phillip Hall

10 frame deeps Langstroth. 
Single brood box on bottom (under the foreground foliage), queen excluder, then 5 supers on top.  6 boxes high.   The field is canola.

when does your canola bloom? is it sowed in spring or in fall?

Bloom is 2nd week July through 1st week August.
https://www.canolacouncil.org/canola-encyclopedia/
This is a good representation of the typical view around the bee yard at end of July.

[blackforest beekeeper]

@ TheHoneyPump  Mr Claude,  I was looking at the picture that you have on your profile heading. That is amazing!
How many supers of honey do you have stacked on those hives?  Also, the picture is so vastly taking in the surrounding scenery of the area. I love the wide open spaces!! Is that goldenrod? I tried zooming in but couldn't quite make out the details of the  blooms.  Thanks,  Phillip Hall

10 frame deeps Langstroth. 
Single brood box on bottom (under the foreground foliage), queen excluder, then 5 supers on top.  6 boxes high.   The field is canola.

when does your canola bloom? is it sowed in spring or in fall?

Bloom is 2nd week July through 1st week August.
https://www.canolacouncil.org/canola-encyclopedia/
This is a good representation of the typical view around the bee yard at end of July.

As I thought, You guys got summer-canola. Sowed in spring, bloom in summer. So hives are at their peak for Your place.
We have winter-canola, sowed in August or September or so. It bloomed this year beginning of April till beginning of May. So hives are in the middle (starting with the beginning...) of build-up for most of the flow from canola. Usually it might be mid-April till mid-May. On higher grounds it will be later, going till end of June. Peak of the hives I would oracle to be end of May/beginning of June for the early regions (not BlackForest). If you then move em up to the higher fields, you get a lot.
The later flows on higher grounds can yield up to 70 kg per hive on average (but often one only takes selected hives there) as the build-up is pretty much done then. I have never gone there. There are more interesting flows at the same time with a higher pay. Canola is the cheapest of all honeys. Although I very much like it!
Also, there seem to be regions where canola just doesn`t create a flow. Seems to have to do with the soil. We are lucky.

The rather very early flow we usually get will be around 20 to 30 kg on average. Depending on the size of the hives going into winter one can improve on that a bit still (we winter "weak" hives with late splits). With 20 kg (for ALL hives coming out of winter) I am content. We wintered 55 there, maybe 45 were left at the end of canola flow this year. Bit more than 1000kg from Canola (and whatelse flowers in spring).

[beepro]

Mr. Van, I've been doing winter hive manipulation for all 6 years of
beekeeping.  I don't want my bees to go in a cluster mode during the winter. We do, however, have our short 2 weeks of winter frost from late Dec. to early Jan.  I've
added supplement heat for that purpose.  Like BFB, I like to overwinter my hives in small population if possible.  This will save on the feed both patty subs and sugar bricks. I mean what is the point of having a populated hive during the winter months here.  There is no productivity from the bees since nothing major is in bloom during this time. 

With supplement witner feeding, by early Spring time the hive population will be doubled. I learned this feeding trick from the commercial operation going to the almonds in early Spring here.  In as early as Dec. the queens are starting to expand their brood nest.  By late Jan I can have my first batch of Spring mated queens. So the bee environment is warmer already plus the supplement heat with lots of winter feeding, I can get the Spring honey as our flow is short.  This winter I'm experimenting on putting the hives in our new greenhouse, half way completed now. So no need to keep any honey frame in the hives to overwinter.  But I do leave them anything that they can collect during our mini-Autumn flow.  This year our mini flow got extended because of the warmer than usual Autumn-- the El Nino effect.  Lots of loquat trees, which is the major source of the mini flow, have not bloom yet.  So winter will be dragging on and maybe a short one too. We will see. 

Here because of the warm environment, I can plant the late or early canola also.  I have collected both the winter and Spring canola seeds.  If it is weather permitting the winter canola sowed in August through October is the prefer choice for the winter rains. I've learn that the Hubam clovers do very well here too. So mustard, canola, borage, buckwheat, turnip top greens, etc.   There is plenty for the bees!

[blackforest beekeeper]

I don`t winter them "small" cause of the less stores consumed. That is not the case. They need more, two halves, than one whole colony. Also they need a bottom board, a box, frames, foundation or natural comb drawn, medication, an inner lid, an outer cover, transportation, general jumping around them, paying taxes and insurance....

no. Two halves (or something like that) will make more honey next year than one whole colony in late summer/early fall. Also I can make more nucs the following year. By mid-may at the latest one won`t be able to see a difference between a late split and an untouched colony. That is because the curve of build-up is much steeper for a small colony compared to a large one (brood-rearing will start around beginning of march).
And for build-up of the apiary this is a viable way. at least where I am at. and anything warmer. Build-up in fall to a uniform size and a good feed on a small amount of frames and as little space as possible does take some "feeling". I know a guy winters his late nucs on 4 frames. I have done it and it does work. Most beekeepers around here consider this nonsense and I don`t even mention it to my colleagues. The overall thought to winter-size in Germany is: as large as possible. Probably not for all commercial beeks.

As soon as I am up to size, I am gonna winter in larger colonies, maybe just take a frame of brood or two after the flows instead of all the combs. So I can improve on the 20-30 kg of canola a bit. Or I might sell of the surplus nucs, too. Depends on many variables yet. Esp. my future ways of dealing with the mites.

beepro: sounds like bee-heaven you live in. well, for bee-keepers, too.

[beepro]

I can see how this wintering method is more beneficial to the hives.  If one queen is dead then the other one will
take over.   If you want to make an early Spring split then the other over wintered queen is quite useful that early.  I also got the
idea of putting 2 nucs together side-by-side with 2 queens to collect more honey.   It is better than running a single nuc hive like
this season's little bee experiment.    They do survive and removing the mite cap brood frames to another hive is much easier.  Since I have the most
gentle bees now I can use a screen divider between the 2 bottom nuc hives and then super up.   This way I don't have to worry about the
mites that much esp. during early Spring hive expansion time.   I'm simply rearranging the hives for better mite management (IPM) and hive population build
up since I don't treat.   

[blackforest beekeeper]

I don`t see as this having an effect on the mites.
keep on eye on them. treat if they need it.

[beepro]

I have been using the IPM method to remove the cap brood frames with mites in the
cells.  So no need to treat any of my hives. If you see a high mite count on each
new bees hatch cycle then you can remove the cap broods.  This will help with honey collection and hives expansion.  A very simple process to do without needing to chemical treat the bees.   The best part is I can do it at any time of the seasons in a mild winter environment here.

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

BEEPRO,  question?  After you remove a capped frame, what do you do with the capped frame?

Freeze kill and reuse?
Throw away the capped frame?
Freeze frame, decap, clean with compressed air to remove larva and reuse?
Heat kill and reuse?

Main question is do you reuse the capped frame?

ALSO TO HONEYPUMP:

HoneyPump: I hope you see this text: that is a beautiful pic of the canola field.  Yes Sir, wide open field, no weeds; What does the air smell like with a blooming field of Canola?

In Montana a field of sweet clover, 6 feet in height, fills the air with a beautiful sweet aroma that is very pleasant.  Every inhale is incredible and the reason for the name SWEET CLOVER.  Such a pleasing aroma is the clover.  I can only imagine what a field of canola aroma is like.  Explain, Sir.
Blessings

[TheHoneyPump]

Van,  not sure what to compare the smell to as to try to describe it.  It has its own unique smell and when in bloom there is definitely no mistaking it for anything else.

The best I can describe it is .... to me, it looks like and smells like stacks of money.

[beepro]

Van, it is a secret.  The member who PMs me before already know what to do with the
frames of cap broods that are removed.  I don't like killing esp. small insects like the valuable bees. So I will give you full details on what I do with the cap brood frames once they are removed along with the mites inside.  My IPM method has lots of secret within a secret on using the cap broods.  PM me for a detailed version so that all your questions will be answered and some more.  Promise it would be an eye opener on how to combat the mites using such an easy method.  Who ever said that beekeeping cannot be organic will never know.   Other hives will be very clean and happy too!

[blackforest beekeeper]

Van,  not sure what to compare the smell to as to try to describe it.  It has its own unique smell and when in bloom there is definitely no mistaking it for anything else.

The best I can describe it is .... to me, it looks like and smells like stacks of money. Hear that cash register sound each time a super goes on and comes off.  cha-ching ... cha-ching ... cha-ching ...

smells of the nectar, but it does have a tinge of cabbage along.