Single brood box? Double brood box? Or no queen excluder at all?

[Lesgold]

I know this will raise the blood pressure of many of you. It seems to be one of the areas of beekeeping that people are passionate about but often having opposing views. Just to give you a bit of background on my situation. I have basically never used queen excluders up until this year. The only time that they have been used in the past was for the production of comb honey on the odd hive. I?ve always allowed the queen to lay wherever she wanted to and have always ended up with big hives that produce a lot of honey. This year, I decided to try queen excluders on all hives to reduce my workload. I still wanted to give the queen plenty of room to move around so I decided to go for a double brood box. I?d be interested to hear comments from you as I will be making a decision at the end of the season as to how I proceed in the future. I?m trying to down size to about 25 hives as I?m getting more than enough honey to keep me going. I accept that one brood box and a QX would be a common choice for people who hold large numbers of hives and move them around to follow the flows but what about the hobby beekeeper who only runs a small number of hives. I?d be interested in your thoughts.

Cheers

Les

[Bill Murray]

Les I have run both singles and doubles at my house, deeps mixed with mediums, and this year doing some all mediums for my granddaughter( she has trouble manipulating deep frames). Personally I like doubles. Just my opinion they seem to be less time consuming, dont have to pay as much attention to them,Reversing in the spring is a good swarm deterrent, and are easy peasy to split. In the fall it makes it easier (again my opinion) to get them equalized out. I also do a lot of fall nucs and the extra resources I find come in handy from the doubles. The deeps mixed with mediums didnt last long. couldnt move the frames where I needed when I needed. Im very interested though on how the all mediums work out. Wont go into some of the reasons in my out-yards. This is why I keeps doubles at my house, for my enjoyment.

[TheHoneyPump]

I run all deep 10 frame equipment.
Queen excluder is a tool in the beekeeper toolbox.  It is used to control where you want her and where you do not want her.  In doing so, the work can be better managed, more efficient = less work.  The QE puts the beekeeper in control of how the hive equipment is organized.  Without it, the hive is out of control and thus so will be the operation of the apiary.  Unmanaged, uncontrolled results are highly variable. 
To the question of doubles vs singles.  The answer is:  both, each at the right time of the season. My hives are doubles through spring for population growth. When target population size are near, she is pushed into and confined to single a week before the heavy nectar flows start. And she is kept down there for the rest of the season. This method maximizes early bee-power population and highest harvestable honey production, with least beekeeper nest work. 
The timing of the move has to be on point.  Push her down too early and she will swarm.  Push her down too late and you will miss out on a sizeable amount of the honey flow. 

Hope that helps!

[NigelP]

I tend to let the fecundity of the queen determine the number of boxes she occupies. Usually about 2/3rds of mine are on double brood boxes each with 11 frames.
The honey collecting supers (about 1/2 the depth of the brood boxes) are added on top of these. There can be up to 5 of these added in a decent flow. I always use queen excluders between the brood box and supers as my experience with the queens I use, is that they will lay a plume of brood through the honey collecting supers if I don't. Something I do not want.
Although Ido  know of keepers who are using non-fecund queens who don't bother and their queens don't seem to bother to stray upwards from the brood box.

[Brian MCquilkin]

I'm running deep boxes for brood chambers and mediums and deeps for supers. The queen excluder is a great way to take control of how the colonies are managed. Use them to put the queen below the honey supers for the honey flow. Separate the boxes with excluders so I can find the queen easier, use them for making splits. there are many great reasons to use a queen excluder. Early on I didn't use excluders but as my colony numbers increased I found them to be a no-brainer as it decreased the workload immensely.

[Lesgold]

All interesting comments and I thank you all. It?s also interesting to see that you focus on different aspects of the QX which is good to see. I?ve always enjoyed not using an excluder but as you have all said, the queen tends to move throughout the hive often resulting in a temporary infestation of brood in the top box. I always found that I had to be more careful when pulling frames as there was a chance that the queen could be anywhere. Contrary to what some people say, I have found the queen on capped frames of honey before.  This may be due to the smoke, I?m not sure but it always meant that I had to be careful when removing frames. The double brood box has allowed a good expansion of the hive and has still given the queen room to move. I do like The method that HP uses as it allows the hive to build freely early in the year but later it confines the queen. I will consider using that technique and see how it goes next year. I could do that now but I don?t want to confine the queen too low in the hive over the cooler months. I will have a good honey flow this winter and will need to consider how I use the QX during that time (if at all) What do you think? This type of flow occurs about once in every 4 years due to the flowering cycle of this particular type of eucalyptus tree. In the past it hasn?t been an issue as the queen has been allowed to find her own comfortable spot in the hive. Over night temperatures occasionally get down to 0 degrees C but most nights are 2 or 3 in the depths of winter.

[NigelP]

My hives are doubles through spring for population growth. When target population size are near, she is pushed into and confined to single a week before the heavy nectar flows start. And she is kept down there for the rest of the season. This method maximizes early bee-power population and highest harvestable honey production, with least beekeeper nest work. 

Spot on....its why I like 2 boxes as when we go to the heather honey harvest the bees and queen get crammed into 1 box and the space made up with supers. It does as you say HP give you an amazing work force when a flow is on.

[Ben Framed]

I run all deep 10 frame equipment.
Queen excluder is a tool in the beekeeper toolbox.  It is used to control where you want her and where you do not want her.  In doing so, the work can be better managed, more efficient = less work.  The QE puts the beekeeper in control of how the hive equipment is organized.  Without it, the hive is out of control and thus so will be the operation of the apiary.  Unmanaged, uncontrolled results are highly variable. 
To the question of doubles vs singles.  The answer is:  both, each at the right time of the season. My hives are doubles through spring for population growth. When target population size are near, she is pushed into and confined to single a week before the heavy nectar flows start. And she is kept down there for the rest of the season. This method maximizes early bee-power population and highest harvestable honey production, with least beekeeper nest work. 
The timing of the move has to be on point.  Push her down too early and she will swarm.  Push her down too late and you will miss out on a sizeable amount of the honey flow. 

Hope that helps!

> When target population size are near, she is pushed into and confined to single a week before the heavy nectar flows start.

Thanks for the good explanation HoneyPump. A couple questions further; When she is pushed down, what is done with the top brood box? I am guessing it is left in place, allowing for all larva and brood to hatch.  What is after that for this box and frames? Are they left still inplace, becoming a honey super right where it sets?
 
When you say 'pushed down' is there a certain method you use to push her down or do you simply go into the brood area, find her, and move her below adding the QE?
(Manually moving her would be my assumption, but just an assumption, I do not want to miss something here, good stuff!)

Phillip

[NigelP]

Can't speak for HP, but what many of us do here is basically rearrange frames so in the box that is going to the moors  (or flow) will contain the queen, 1 frame of stores, 1 frame of pollen and 9 frames of brood. If I have a choice most of this will be newly sealed brood, as they require minimal maintenance  and also help prevent the bees back filling the bottom box when the flow is on. Depending on what is left any excess brood frames will be given to hives needing them. Excess pollen frames frozen to given back in spring, any honey frames may be stored or extracted.
The lost space is made up with empty supers ready for filling.

[Lesgold]

Sounds like a bit of work for you at that time of year. I?m sure that it pays off with good honey yields. How long is the flow in your area?

[NigelP]

Uk has essentially 2 major flows. Spring when colonies are building up and summer when they are fully stretched.
However my preps are for the heather harvest which entails moving bees to the heather moors when they flower in August. The Ling heather only flowers for about 4-5 weeks.  It's a premium crop fetching around ?12/lb vs ?8/lb for any of the other stuff.
It's also a gamble as some years the weather is so bad we get very little heather honey and end up feeding them. Last years was okay and we averaged about 50lbs/hive, more in an exceptional year.

[Lesgold]

Is that 12 and 8 dollars or pounds per lb of honey? Either way it is a very good return. I sell my honey for about 6 Aussie dollars per lb ($13 per kg)

[NigelP]

That's 12 UK pounds per pound in weight translates to $22.88 Australian dollars, or about $16 US dollars.

[Lesgold]

Wow. That is a amazing price. Good luck to you Nigel.

[Acebird]

what about the hobby beekeeper who only runs a small number of hives. I?d be interested in your thoughts.

I did not use QE's  As HP suggests:

Push her down too early and she will swarm.  Push her down too late and you will miss out on a sizeable amount of the honey flow.

Why add another very critical timing to the hive?  It is totally unnecessary to gamble as a hobbyist.

[Lesgold]

If you were only running a few hives I would tend to agree (but not fully). HP?s comments relate to maximising hive honey production which is probably not the initial aim of a beekeeper with a couple of colonies. Running hives without a queen excluder can be extremely simple or quite complex and depends on what you?re after. If you only want to pinch a bit of honey as frames are capped, you can do so without upsetting the hive. If you want to get the most out of a hive as far as honey production is concerned, a lot of frame manipulation is required which is at least as complex as HP?s methods. Brood inspections in a hive without a QX is a pain especially when it is spread throughout the hive. On the other side of the fence (or should I say the excluder) running a hive with a queen excluder can be a simple task as well. A hive can be established in a single box and at the appropriate time, a queen excluder and super can be added. You don?t end up with a huge honey making machine but you do end up with a productive hive. The reason I asked the question initially was to hear about peoples ideas and methods so that I could decide upon a technique that would work well in my situation. Keep the ideas coming in. I?m really enjoying reading about different ways in which people manage their bees.

[Acebird]

I did brood inspections in early spring and late fall.  No frame manipulations just turn the box over and look from the bottom.  My honey harvest was around 150-200 pounds.  Way more than I needed.  With absolute cold winter in the north I found hobby beekeeping way, way, easier then here in the south.  Harvesting honey was a cake walk.

[Lesgold]

Acebird, you just reminded me of my first year in beekeeping. Built 6 hives, caught 5 swarms and bought a nuc. No idea of what I was doing. It turned out to be one of those years where everything flowered. Produced 485kg of honey that year. Averaged almost 180 lbs per hive. It nearly killed me. Ended up with huge hives that turned into honey making machines. Squashed stacks of bees and got stung by heaps of the girls due to my inexperience. I was advised by an older beekeeper not to use a queen excluder so I didn?t.  It was a bit of a nightmare early on with a rapid learning curve.

[Acebird]

It was a bit of a nightmare early on with a rapid learning curve.

QE or no QE it still would have been that way.  LOL

[Lesgold]

Yep. I was throw in at the deep end. I still look back at and smile about it. You are right. Queen excluders would have made very little difference at all due to my inexperience.  The number of stings I received would probably have increased lol.