Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: FatherMichael on June 20, 2020, 08:14:08 pm
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Tough spring for my backyard hive. Thought I'd let nature take its course but it did not turn out so well. A very strong hive swarmed. I intentionally let that happen rather than do a split. I assumed a good daughter would take up where her mother left off. The hive was very strong when the death of my own mom occured and I was distracted by grief, dealing with family issues, and executing the will.
Went on a much-needed vacation. Came home to find the hive severely depleted, no brood or stores, and we're in drought conditions now.
Started to feed them and BAM! the robbers came in wild, crazy, and overwhelming like a BLM/Antifa mob!
Shut down the entrance severely and fought the robbers with water spray for two days.
Went to the farm and borrowed two frames of brood with young larvae and eggs so that they could make a new queen, though I found one supersedure cell.
A member of the Lubbock club posted laying queens that he had replaced but had not pinched. He wanted $10 each. So, I got one and released her today after an overnight protective custody inside the hive.
The need for so much intervention now reveals the weakness of a previously held hippie philosophy, for which I repent!
Scripture says we have dominion over the earth, to fill the earth and subdue it. We are stewards and these magnificent creatures deserve better from me.
What else can I do now to help them recover from my foolishness?
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One thing may be to allow 3 plus days for a hive to accept a new queen. With only overnight, they most likely killed her. If not, you were looked after by a higher power.
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Condolences on the loss of your mother. I think the real lesson here is having more than one hive. There is nothing wrong with taking a "limited" approach to beekeeping and letting the bees swarm and provide growth to the local feral population, burt you must be prepared for situations like you have found yourself in. Swarming is not a perfect process and mother nature can be cruel at times. With multiple hives, you can better respond to such issues.
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Condolences on your Moms passing.
Just a footnote to what the others have said
This year is the hardest year I have seen my bees have in requeening themselves.
Absolute nitemare. Normal odds are 3 out of 4, not this year.
Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
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Thanks, guys.
Last spring I could do nothing wrong and the hive was a great success.
This spring is a disaster.
We've had little rain and the bees are crazy at the hummingbird feeder. There must not be much honey flow at all, even though I see flowers around.
However, the two nucs installed at the Bostick place are doing well -- feeding them, of course.
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They are successfully defending the reduced entrance, only 1" wide by 3/8 inch.
There is normal forging activity, coming and going, though not a lot.
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Father Michael, I was wondering where you been? Sorry about your loss of a loved one. There are not words in this language that appropriately describe feelings so I use the word sorry for lack of accurate true indescribable feelings.
Bees can be merciless when it comes to robbing. I have to be so careful during a dearth, not to spill a drop of anything sweet. Reduce the entrance as you did, very good.
ROBBING, how I deal with: In the evening, I have had to remove all frames, bees everything except the hive body as some robbers will not give up... so I leave an empty hive body with empty frames just as if the bees absconded and there is no more food. The frames of bees are then relocated to a new spot maybe only 50 feet away with reduced entrance. I have even tried to hid robbed hives at night, camouflaged, but the robbers always find the targeted hive. The best method for me is to take everything and move it but leave an empty original hive body in original location with empty frames.
Glad to see your back Father Michael. Keep us informed. May we be guided to a clear path to I AM.
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I'm sorry to here about your grief. Best wishes to you and your family.
As for the bees - I went thru pretty much the same thing in my 2nd year (2016). I wanted to let them "be natural". Long story short - it didn't work, and all 4 hives died. Now I monitor, study, and treat as needed (oav). Things are much better now. Hopefully things will turn around quickly for you!
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I intentionally let that happen rather than do a split. I assumed a good daughter would take up where her mother left off.
Sorry for you loss. I lost my mother many years ago.
Had you split then (it is like a forced swarm) you could have kept up the hippy care of the hives and it would have helped you with your grieving. Part of the reason why you don't let hives swarm is because it is out of your control. Bees are not human. They do not make their homes next to their parents. The only way that happens is if you force it. Success is very limited when you are fighting mother nature.
"non" intervention does not mean "no" intervention.
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Thanks, Brian and Van,
Got a nice rain last night and normal activity at the hive holds.
I've seen two things for the first time, a swarm and a disturbing robbing frenzy.
Glad to have seen it but will seek to avoid both in the future with better management!
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You will do just fine, we are learning as we go.
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Glad to have seen it but will seek to avoid both in the future with better management!
You have seen three things. The difference between a first year queen and a second year queen. The impulse to swarm is much greater.
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I think my strategy might work. The two frames of young brood and eggs produced three queen cells.
I'm feeding and they seem to be defending themselves okay.
Now just wait, I guess?
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I think my strategy might work. The two frames of young brood and eggs produced three queen cells.
I'm feeding and they seem to be defending themselves okay.
Now just wait, I guess?
I guess; and hope the new prevailing virgin mates and finds her way back home after her mating. Rooting for you! And praying for you in your bee situation as well as your life situation.
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I think my strategy might work. The two frames of young brood and eggs produced three queen cells.
I'm feeding and they seem to be defending themselves okay.
Now just wait, I guess?
3 queen cells!!!! Yes.
The thrill of bees is taking losses and making a better come back.
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Had to order a queen today because my previous efforts failed.
What could have happened to three queen cells?
My two new hives in the country are doing well.
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I'm very sorry for the passing of your Mother. My condolences.
On the 26th you posted that you saw queen cells. If they were capped it could be that you have a mated queen that hasn't started laying yet but will shortly. That could be why the other cells are gone. I would do quickie checks for eggs and larva everyday.
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It could also mean that the queen didn't make it back.
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Tough spring for my backyard hive. Thought I'd let nature take its course but it did not turn out so well. A very strong hive swarmed. I intentionally let that happen rather than do a split.
First of all my condolences, losing a loved one is never easy regardless of who you are or what you do.
I have noticed in some of your past posts your intentions to allow the colony to swarm and was a bit disappointed others did not advise against this. It is poor practice for many reasons.
Well nature has taken it's course and sounds like the lesson is learned. Perhaps the queen cells you saw have hatched and cast more swarms.
Condensing the weak colony back to a nuc box would help the colony move forward.
That the bees have swarmed in summer is also a good reminder that swarming isn't just a spring thing.
Is there much of a flow on in your area?
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Thanks, guys, yes, a hard lesson learned.
We are given dominion over the earth and all living things -- a responsibility that I failed with this hive so far.
I know of guys that will not leave the bees alone for one minute. One lost all his 12 hives due to pushing them too hard. I overcompensated the other way, I guess.
There's time left this season to get this hive built up.
The Mesquites are only at 50% of last year, cotton is several weeks away, but sunflowers are blooming now. It's been terribly hot, 111 two days ago!
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Skeggley, just to be fair, there are others that did urge our brother to split when he first expressed his desire to let the hives swarm, in another topic, I being one. He stressed his romantic desires to let nature take its course, seeking the joy of capturing a swarm in his traps. Though expressing our concerns he was intent on the venture. Therefore looking at things from his romantic point of view I did not try and discourage him any further, seeing his mind was made. I was then hoping he would succeed in his joyous adventure.
Had his swarm plan worked, and the swarm settled in one of his traps, the tide would have been turned and there would be an entirely different ball game and outlook. Happy Bee Times! He had a fair shot at achieving his adventurous goal of capturing a swarm which was his end goal. I was rooting for him when I could clearly see the adventure in his joyful post. He tried. I am confident he will continue to move forward and succeed! It will all work out. Hang in there Brother Michale, You will bounce back!
As you know, I lost my daddy last year. It will get better. Cherish the good memories. We shall meet them again when The Lord reunites us!! We as believers have this blessed hope and assurance!!
Blessings!
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About to start a new adventure. Ordered the queen from Wildflower Meadows, who claim they have "survivor" stock.
Here is what they say: https://wildflowermeadows.com/why-wildflower-meadows/vsh-survivor-queens/
Hope I have enough bees in there to greet their new queen when she arrives.
Might have to boost again from one of my hives in the country.
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I think it's perfectly ok to move a frame of capped brood in there so you have fresh emerging bees as your queen is released. You could also move them into a nuc if you think a regular hive body is too big at this time.
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I think it's perfectly ok to move a frame of capped brood in there so you have fresh emerging bees as your queen is released. You could also move them into a nuc if you think a regular hive body is too big at this time.
I was just about to suggest using Skeggleys advise "Condensing the weak colony back to a nuc box would help the colony move forward.' I agree with you both Amy about the nuc.
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Might have to boost against from one of my hives in the country.
If you do pick a frame of brood try and pick one that has emerging brood. Put the new queen under a push in cage over the emerging brood and it greatly increases your chance for acceptance. As the bees emerge they accept the queen and the rest of the hive does as well.
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As long as the hive has not went into laying worker mode, the new queen should do fine?
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Great comments! Thank you all so much!
Lied awake last night wondering if the bees left were merely robbers.
But observed this morning that they were storing the syrup, guarding the entrance, and foragers were coming and going.
No sign of anything laying -- just a small bunch of bees valiantly hanging on for a miracle.
I've been there before!
Would reduce this hive except it has the slatted rack where most of them are congregated because of the heat.
Yes, a frame of fully capped or emerging brood would really help when the new queen arrives.
It's nice to have healthy hives to draw upon. Makes me want to expand greatly next spring.
New concept forming in my mind: aggregation -- success of the operation is distributed among and between the individual units of the same.
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Makes me want to expand greatly next spring.
That is what I said about 6 years ago. Now around 80 hives later..... :wink:
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Wow Cao! That is great.. you have really been busy! Maybe busier, or at least as busy as the bees 🐝!
👍🏻 I am impressed, especially since you do not treat for mites.
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Makes me want to expand greatly next spring.
That is what I said about 6 years ago. Now around 80 hives later..... :wink:
Awesome!
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Michael. I know how you feel. I lost my dad in December. At least my bees were low maintenance then.
I also experienced swarming and robbing this spring. They are hard lessons for us new beeks. My problem was just simple ignorance of how to keep a brood nest open during spring build up.
But, hey. That's what new beeks do. Make mistakes.
After all... what would all these old timers in the forum have to do all day, if not to straighten us out? 😉
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Inspected the troubled hive to see if enough bees were left to receive the high powered queen arriving tomorrow. I think they can do it; so, gave them some pollen patty and a gallon of syrup.
Will stop by the other apiary on the way home to pick a couple of combs of capped brood and stores to stick in with her.
Cotton has started to bloom here as well as sunflowers.
This hive may survive!
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Wishing you the best. Keep us updated. Thanks.
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The UPS Customer Center office was closed when I got there so trespassed beyond the "Employees Only" sign to find one guy working a huge facility. Told him I was expecting a package and, lo, it was on a cart right in front of him! LOL
Together we verified that the queen and her cohort were alive.
I came home and followed the plan. She is now in the hive in her cage along with two frames of brood in various stages of development (mostly capped), and some stores.
I'm thinking 48 hours before releasing her, though they have been without a queen for a long time.
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Can I ask, are you sure there is not laying workers by this time? The reason I am asking, would it be better to make this up as a nuc. Give her time to get settled in and shake the old ones away from their present spot at that time? Taking care of any L/W? Wouldn?t this give her a better chance in the case the old hive has went rogue? I am walking on thin ice asking this but it would be my concern if it was my situation.
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Can I ask, are you sure there is not laying workers by this time? The reason I am asking, would it be better to make this up as a nuc. Give her time to get settled in and shake the old ones away from their present spot at that time? Taking care of any L/W? Wouldn?t this give her a better chance in the case the old hive has went rogue? I am walking on thin ice asking this but it would be my concern if it was my situation.
There is no sign of any laying of anything.
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Okey-dokey. As far as I know that sounds good! Wishing you the best.
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Released the new queen. She looks healthy and happy.
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This is tough. It's like having a kid in the hospital!
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This is tough. It's like having a kid in the hospital!
Did the bees seem to be acceptable as you picked up the cage to release her? Was they easy to move around with you finger or was they aggressively hanging on the the screen and cage?
You should know something soon. Let us know.
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They were swarmed over the cage and didn't want to let go but were not aggressive toward me and I was able gently to get them out of the way for a good hold. She came out with her blue mark and went right down into the combs with brood.
How long should I wait to look? I'm thinking two weeks but don't know why! LOL
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They were swarmed over the cage and didn't want to let go but were not aggressive toward me and I was able gently to get them out of the way for a good hold. She came out with her blue mark and went right down into the combs with brood.
How long should I wait to look? I'm thinking two weeks but don't know why! LOL
I do not know! lol But there are fellow beekeepers here that do, Mr Van, iddee, HP, AR, and Oldbeavo along with others are a few which come to mind.
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My personal experience is after I release I come back in a few days to check an see if she has began laying ✔️. No set amount of time. The following I looked up for you.
Answer:
After she has been released from her cage, she may begin to lay right away as she is likely already mated, but it can take her up to another 7 days after release to get established enough in her to home to begin laying eggs.
I got that from the following
https://beehour.com/how-long-does-it-take-for-a-queen-bee-to-start-laying-eggs/
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How soon to go back to look really depends what you are looking for. Are you looking to see if she has been killed or looking to see how the colony is doing at rebuilding?
If you are worried about acceptance, check in 2 days from release.
If you are checking for brood progress, and to avert early supercedure, 10 days.
Inspect on 7 to 10 day interval going forward, checking health and managing space. Never more than 10 days. Lest you shall lose another queen to more queen cells, battle royales, and/or swarm(s).
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Thanks, guys.
The foragers are bringing in a lot of light colored pollen, nearly every bee loaded with it.
If it is sunny and warm today I might take a peek.
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> If you are checking for brood progress, and to avert early supercedure, 10 days
Mr HP. If supercedure cells are present, and are taken down at the time you reccomend, will this usually ward off Supersedure? Can it take more than one round of removing supercedure cells to stop supercedure? Thanks
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Mr. Ben, why try to avoid supersedure? If I see supersedure cells, I let the bees do their will. Last Spring, a package hive was created. In two weeks, supersedure cells appeared although the queen looked fine to me and was laying well. I did not interfere. A new queen hatched, mated and was laying alone side her mother. The two queens remained in the hive for four weeks. I do not know which queen prevailed as I did not mark either queen. For 4 weeks, I checked this package hive weekly and two queens appeared casual. The fifth week, only one queen remained.
Kinda unusual behavior to have 2 queens, but I have seen before, always in Spring.
I could understand tearing down supersedure cells for a highly rated, proven queen introduced into a new hive. Is this your thought Mr. Ben?
Blessings
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Mr. Van, that was exactly my thoughts. I was thinking of your beloved Alpha and how you held on to her for 4 1/2 years. Also your Thelma Lou or any other queen we may not want superceded for whatever a specific reason. I was not thinking so much of actually tearing the supersedure cells down as junk, but doing so with the idea of starting new nucleus colonies. From what I understand supersedure cells make good queens. Is this correct Mr. Van? Thanks!
Let me add, I have more than one person say that package bees are known to be a supersedure type situation. Is this correct?
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> If you are checking for brood progress, and to avert early supercedure, 10 days
Mr HP. If supercedure cells are present, and are taken down at the time you reccomend, will this usually ward off Supersedure? Can it take more than one round of removing supercedure cells to stop supercedure? Thanks
Yes, it will stop the SS. If the queen is any good. Newly introduced queens (including package queens) are at risk until they get into full lay and exuding pheromones galore. Until that happens the bees may react to low brood and low queen essence by building cells off of the earliest eggs laid. Help that new queen get established by destroying those early cells. Usually takes only one intervention. Sometimes two. If there is a third intervention, then Something is inherently wrong with her.
I am talking about newly introduced queens and packages here. When an already well established queen starts having supersedure cells, that is a totally different case. Keep the cases separate please so as to avoid confusion and mixed messaging about cells.
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It worked!
She was accepted and is hard at work.
Praise the Lord!
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It worked!
She was accepted and is hard at work.
Praise the Lord!
That is great news and I am happy for you as you have shared your struggles here with us with this hive. I will confess, I was concerned for your chances at this point! :happy: And I agree as you said Praise The Lord! As Jeff Horchoff says in every video, Praise Jesus!
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Thanks, Ben.
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Thanks, Ben.
Your welcome my friend. Keep up the good work! Whether it be bees or life!
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I don't know. This backyard hive is breaking my heart.
Went in today. Saw no queen, eggs, or young larva. Just a few capped brood yet to emerge and older larva. There are two supersedure cells. These were probably from two frames of brood introduced from my two strong hives in the country.
I think that the high powered queen from California failed. Who knows if she was even mated as advertised?
Will check again in a few days but am not inclined to invest much more in this operation.
Never lost a hive before. :(
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Thanks for your report. Sorry it is not going as was hoped. I am learning as are you. Thanks for folks like the Honey Pump, Mr Van, Oldbeavo, and all the others with their patience and guidance. We will do better next season! Hang in there!
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What a surprise, I found the queen still alive!
Where there's life, there's hope.
I wonder if I can get them built up to overwinter in a nuc.
Don't have a clue how to do that! LOL
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Feed them... a lot
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Feed them... a lot
I've got them in an 8 frame single wall deep body and have fed them for several weeks to the point that I worry about the queen having space to lay her eggs. There is plenty of food in cells now and the cotton is blooming not far away.
What worries me is the lack of fresh brood. The queen actually looked bigger and healthier this time but why no fresh brood?
???
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Is there pollen, may want to give them some pollen to feed some brood
Good luck
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> If you are checking for brood progress, and to avert early supercedure, 10 days
Mr HP. If supercedure cells are present, and are taken down at the time you reccomend, will this usually ward off Supersedure? Can it take more than one round of removing supercedure cells to stop supercedure? Thanks
Yes, it will stop the SS. If the queen is any good. Newly introduced queens (including package queens) are at risk until they get into full lay and exuding pheromones galore. Until that happens the bees may react to low brood and low queen essence by building cells off of the earliest eggs laid. Help that new queen get established by destroying those early cells. Usually takes only one intervention. Sometimes two. If there is a third intervention, then Something is inherently wrong with her.
I am talking about newly introduced queens and packages here. When an already well established queen starts having supersedure cells, that is a totally different case. Keep the cases separate please so as to avoid confusion and mixed messaging about cells.
Thanks
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What a surprise, I found the queen still alive!
Where there's life, there's hope.
I wonder if I can get them built up to overwinter in a nuc.
Don't have a clue how to do that! LOL
How many frames of bees do you have? How much brood does she now have in this hive?
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I do not see any brood that might be hers.
When she was released she looked small, barely as big as a worker bee.
When I saw her this time she was larger, like a regular queen.
This situation has me stumped.
I wonder if the heat is a factor. We've had terribly hot temps here, days at a time over 100, and a couple 111 and 113.
But they are not bearding and not visiting the bird bath. I think the syrup and/or flow is satisfying their water needs.
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The reason I ask about the approximate amount of bees is because you had ask about consolidating to a nuke. The queen should be laying if nectar and pollen are both coming in at a good amount. (As dictated by the amount of bees capable of tending to this brood.) If you do not have a robust amount of bees then the nuke may be a good tool as an aid for a faster buildup before winter. In my opinion, I would do just that, consolidate into a nuke. Open feed pollen substitute Ultra Bee, (because of SHB, you certainly can't afford that problem with an already weak hive), and sugar syrup to help as both pollen and nectar (or sugar syrup) is a must for building much needed brood.
In your case the sooner the better, fall is fast approaching. A nuke will make it easier for the bees to keep the box warm in raising brood if you do not have many frames of bees in this hive. A smaller space in your case will also make it easier for bees to fight off SHB and wax moths. A good way to feed this nuke in your case, (again in my opinion), is an in box frame feeder, (at least a gallon size with the built in ladder system to avoid drowning bees), or a hole cut in the top, the correct size (70mm) for an added quart or larger feed jar. I would also treat with OAV, (just in case and in due time), as this hive will need all the help it can get. Wishing you the best.
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I sure wouldn't pour OAV on them unless you had a bad mite problem.
Be careful with the feed quality.
I'm getting late two-frame splits, and teeny tiny late swarms to go BOOM with this formula:
4 lb bag of white CANE sugar
1/4 c brewer's yeast
3000 mg vitamin c powdered capsule contents
50-75mg cal-mag-d3 powdered capsule
120 mg zinc powdered capsule
pinch of salt
Mix dry ingredients. Add warm -not hot water- to stop HMF forming.
Science shows bee larvae needs nutrients. It's the diff between living on orange juice vs pepsi. Neither are as good as vegetable juice, but at least you won't get scurvy.
If it's really hot, are you insulating/shading your hive? I mean, why stress them out if you've put all this work into saving them?
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> I sure wouldn't pour OAV on them unless you had a bad mite problem.
I would not pour an Oxlic on them either. OA(V) V standing for vapor, and would do that "in due time". I have not tried it, but the OAST method is supposed to work well also. As far as a bad mite problem, this hive is already in trouble. An alcohol wash would be out of the question in my opinion as this hive is (probably) short of bees as it is. I suppose a sugar shake would be ok? If....
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There was no brood for quite a while so no way for mites to produce. A brood break is one of the reasons I wanted them to swarm.
As it is now there are probably two frame's worth of bees inside. There are a couple dozen capped brood and a few larva. But it does not seem like the larva are being fed -- no jelly around them -- they are loose in the cells. ???
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There was no brood for quite a while so no way for mites to produce. A brood break is one of the reasons I wanted them to swarm.
As it is now there are probably two frame's worth of bees inside. There are a couple dozen capped brood and a few larva. But it does not seem like the larva are being fed -- no jelly around them -- they are loose in the cells. ???
I normally would probably just let this hive go. But per your title, this is a Rescue Operation;
It is good that you have larvae. Not good that they are not getting fed. This hive needs immediate attention of at least three things maybe four. I recommend all four. There may be others needs that I am not aware of.
Nurse bees. Do you have another hive nearby that you can collect resources of nurse bees and their larvae along with capped brood to donate to this hive? The second thing is pollen or pollen substitute. I refer to post 62 in the way provided and why. I highly suggested ultra-bee. Randy Oliver did and extensive research program on 6 different pollen substitutes and guess which one was at the top of the charts in most cases. Though he explained all were good. As FG noted with her homemade yeast product, any supplement is better than nothing. Randy included a (Homebrew of yeast) in his research which was a help also.
The third thing that you for sure will need to Rescue these bees in a food source, Nectar or Sugar syrup. In my opinion, this desperate hive needs a steady and readily available food source exclusive to themselves. I again recommend you using a frame feeder of at least one gallon volume, or hive top feeder as described in reply 62, and I will say whether you are receiving nectar or not, because this hive is weak.
The fourth thing is a consolidation of space. as described in reply 62. Again wishing you the very best in this rescue operation and hoping for your and your hives success!
Blessings
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Started to feed them and BAM! the robbers came in wild, crazy, and overwhelming like a BLM/Antifa mob!
Sincere condolences, Father Michael. Might I suggest you edit this sentence from your original post. Some might take offense and unless my understanding is incorrect, any sort of political commentary on this forum or any other is not permitted.
No.
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A beautiful queen bee. One of my queens of 2020. She is so golden, just beautiful. Eye candy.
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:happy: :wink:
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A beautiful queen bee. One of my queens of 2020. She is so golden, just beautiful. Eye candy.
You're a bee artist!
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To the Moderators:
I?m disappointed that you removed my posts and Amy?s. She was right. I?m also done. Please forward information on how I can withdraw from this forum completely. Thank you.
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This morning I saw the attacks for the first time. I was not following this thread closely because it did not look like the type of thread that causes problems.
This is the General beekeeping, main forum not the coffee house. The attacks here were out of line and I went through and removed the offending ones that I could find.
If you take offense with what Someone says, do not retaliate, contact us to deal with it. I do not ever remember any alerts for this thread.
I?m locking down this thread.
Please bee cordial to each other.
This is an educational site, let?s keep it that way.
Jim Altmiller