Unsure What's Going On In This Hive

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Member, I am always impressed when beeks make an answer such as yourself I DONT  WANT TO KILL BEES referring to sugar count verses alcohol.  I am further impressed when a beek carefully places on a lid or hive body and is very conscious of squashing bees, which I would wager is also a concern of yours.

You, Member Lady, are very thoughtful of your bees: Kindness is a good trait.
Blessings

[blackforest beekeeper]

An interesting article I came across this morning while sipping coffee.   Relevant to this discussion.  Have a look.

https://honeybeesuite.com/did-they-abscond-or-die-from-varroa/

Yeah, that about sums it up.
I had a guy here this late winter talked about a "pesticide kill" of an entire apiary of a friend (he himself had some bees). He described what had happened in - I guess September/October - and  this guy must have told him: it was pesticide from rape seed (winter canola) which is sprayed in spring..(this canola blooms April/Mid May). So I told him that the bees that had collected the canola were long dead and that it was unlikely that the leftover pollen had killed the hives in fall. But that the symptoms described a varroa-damage-exitus (as described in the article of Rusty) very well. he was quite taken aback, was my impression.

[The15thMember]

Member, I am always impressed when beeks make an answer such as yourself I DONT  WANT TO KILL BEES referring to sugar count verses alcohol.  I am further impressed when a beek carefully places on a lid or hive body and is very conscious of squashing bees, which I would wager is also a concern of yours.

You, Member Lady, are very thoughtful of your bees: Kindness is a good trait.
Blessings

Thank you so much for your kind words, Van.  I was honestly prepared to be criticized for my way of thinking, and I was very thankful to hear your support.  And yes, you are right, I'm always careful when putting my hives back together, and making sure there are no bees stuck in the top of the hive when I'm feeding syrup.        

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

BlackForest, Canola has an interesting history.  Natural Rape seed oil is bitter, indigestible and used as a lubricant on steel gears.  Canada modified the DNA and produced what we now call canola oil in the 1980{s} circa.  The name rape oil was not pleasing so the name was changed to CAN OL  A from CANadian OiL Assoc.  c a n o l a. The name was more pleasing than rape oil.

Canola oil appeared on the grocery shelves out of the blue, bang, all the sudden there is this beautiful NEW cooking oil on the shelves.  Canada swears they did not alter the DNA of rape seed in a laboratory.  Canada swears the mutation was natural, that they took cuttings from various natural rape plants and walla, presto, bingo:  a digestible oil, all natural.  Thus the statement: Canola oil is not a genetically modified organism or GMO it is sworn to be natural.

Ok, There are Canadian beeks on this board, that post some very good info, very thoughtful detailed info and links.  Just today I complimented a Canadian fella on a link the beek posted.  IN NO WAY AM I DISCREDITING FOLKS ON THIS FORUM THAT ARE FROM CANADA.  These beeks on Beemaster had nothing to do with advent or marketing of canola.  So please do not take offense, just stating some facts about canolas orgin.
Blessings

[The15thMember]

BlackForest, Canola has an interesting history.  Natural Rape seed oil is bitter, indigestible and used as a lubricant on steel gears.  Canada modified the DNA and produced what we now call canola oil in the 1980{s} circa.  The name rape oil was not pleasing so the name was changed to CAN OL  A from CANadian OiL Assoc.  c a n o l a. The name was more pleasing than rape oil.

Canola oil appeared on the grocery shelves out of the blue, bang, all the sudden there is this beautiful NEW cooking oil on the shelves.  Canada swears they did not alter the DNA of rape seed in a laboratory.  Canada swears the mutation was natural, that they took cuttings from various natural rape plants and walla, presto, bingo:  a digestible oil, all natural.  Thus the statement: Canola oil is not a genetically modified organism or GMO it is sworn to be natural.

Ok, There are Canadian beeks on this board, that post some very good info, very thoughtful detailed info and links.  Just today I complimented a Canadian fella on a link the beek posted.  IN NO WAY AM I DISCREDITING FOLKS ON THIS FORUM THAT ARE FROM CANADA.  These beeks on Beemaster had nothing to do with advent or marketing of canola.  So please do not take offense, just stating some facts about canolas orgin.
Blessings

This is absolutely fascinating!      

[blackforest beekeeper]

BlackForest, Canola has an interesting history.  Natural Rape seed oil is bitter, indigestible and used as a lubricant on steel gears.  Canada modified the DNA and produced what we now call canola oil in the 1980{s} circa.  The name rape oil was not pleasing so the name was changed to CAN OL  A from CANadian OiL Assoc.  c a n o l a. The name was more pleasing than rape oil.

Canola oil appeared on the grocery shelves out of the blue, bang, all the sudden there is this beautiful NEW cooking oil on the shelves.  Canada swears they did not alter the DNA of rape seed in a laboratory.  Canada swears the mutation was natural, that they took cuttings from various natural rape plants and walla, presto, bingo:  a digestible oil, all natural.  Thus the statement: Canola oil is not a genetically modified organism or GMO it is sworn to be natural.

Ok, There are Canadian beeks on this board, that post some very good info, very thoughtful detailed info and links.  Just today I complimented a Canadian fella on a link the beek posted.  IN NO WAY AM I DISCREDITING FOLKS ON THIS FORUM THAT ARE FROM CANADA.  These beeks on Beemaster had nothing to do with advent or marketing of canola.  So please do not take offense, just stating some facts about canolas orgin.
Blessings

Hi Van,
I just did some low-value research in the net. I didn`t know that and never thought of that, as I had read in quite a few old beekeeping-literatres about rape-seed as being a very valuable source of flow.
"Canola" I read the first time in this forum. In German it is "Raps" and has no bad connotations whatsoever. The word "Canola" - according to the soucre I tapped - is only used in the northern Americas.
For making honey it doesn`t seem to matter.
New sorts are emerging all the time without GMO. Not just Raps.

As not being a farmer, I understand, there is "winter-canola" and "summer-canola". The winter-canola is the type grown in G. It is sown sometime August or thereabouts and spends the winter as a little plant. Bloom is in spring.
Maybe in northern Canada it is more a summer-canola, which is sown in spring and blooms probably in summer?

[blackforest beekeeper]

This sugar-powdering for treatment: is that a sure thing? I would have put it somewhere along the line of dancing around the hives naked at midnight (which just might have an effect I guess).
As for bee-health, I would go for a proven working way of treating, there are many for the likes of anybody.
When the bees are healthy enouhg for winter, dance!
 

[TheHoneyPump]

No sense diving in or cluttering this thread with discussion of Canola. Plenty of info easily discovered by asking our good friend google.  With all respect to Van's post however, imho is perhaps over-summarized to point of not wholly correct, and I advise folks should only take it very superficially.  If it is of interest that should trigger one to do some research.  Here I will only say that with of upwards of 480,000 colonies surrounded by over 22 million of acres of Canola - bee health is NOT a concern. They thrive symbiotically.  The only challenges are due to it being a crop that is very intensively managed; requiring open and clear and frequent communications between the beekeeper and the farmer to ensure that pest controls (insecticides etc) are applied in ways that will not impact the bees.
If there is any interest in the industry in general in Canada, and canola and bees, you are welcome to peruse the publicly available resources at the Canadian Honey Council and the Canola Council of Canada.
http://honeycouncil.ca/honey-industry/statistic/   
https://www.canolacouncil.org/crop-production/canola-loves-bees-bees-love-canola/


OK .....Back on track with the thread,
Anxiously awaiting to see/hear back from 15thmember on the results of the next hive inspection.  A few pictures of combs included perhaps, may help us help with the assessment of what's going on in that hive.

[The15thMember]

OK .....Back on track with the thread,
Anxiously awaiting to see/hear back from 15thmember on the results of the next hive inspection.  A few pictures of combs included perhaps, may help us help with the assessment of what's going on in that hive.

Oh, thanks for thinking of that. I will definitely get some pictures for you guys.

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Mr HoneyPump, yes, thank you for the kind words.
Blessings

[The15thMember]

Hey, I want to ask you guys something about condensing the hive that's confusing me a little bit.  FYI, I'm in all 8 frame mediums.  So I've got essentially one box worth of bees, and the phrase I usually hear is that for winter you should have the hive been the same size as the bees can fill, so they can keep warm more efficiently.  My question is, this hive has more stores than bees, they have 4 frames of brood, about 5 frames of pollen, and almost a full honey super.  How do I condense them without taking their stores from them? 

[paus]

Be thankful I think you and the bees are exactly where you need to be.

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Member, Paus said correctly, agreed 100%.

Your hive appears in good shape according to your description.  Member: Maybe you should be answering, providing advice, guiding us, instead of asking us questions.  I wish all my hives were as you described, except I use 10 frame.
Blessings

[The15thMember]

Thanks Van, I'm glad to hear my management sounds good, but you may want to withhold your praise for now, because I just had an interesting development.  I may have just witnessed the hive absconding.  I went up to the hives about a hour ago to see if either one needed any more food.  This hive did not need any, and there were a lot of bees hanging out on the screened inner cover.  There looked to be some fighting going on, maybe 4-5 dead bees.  Maybe having the openings on the side with the screened inner cover for ventilation was a rookie mistake on my part.  I assumed that if robbers got in there it wouldn't matter because they can't actually get to the food, but maybe I'm wrong about that?  Anyway, because of the little bit of fighting going on, I was standing in front of the hive and hoping that a worker with pollen would go in so I'd know that at least some of the bees coming and going were not robbers.  And suddenly the robbing screen began to fill up with bees.  Like the whole robbing screen was just packed with them.  I have the entrance on this hive reduced to slightly more than 1 bee space, so their exit was slow but they were all leaving and flying away.  It wasn't very organized, they just all flew off in different directions.  I didn't see a queen leave, but I did go around the back of the hive at one point so I could have missed her.  My other hive was also visibly agitated while this was going on, with a lot of bees milling around in their robbing screen.  After about 5-10 minutes the absconding hive's robbing screen was clear again and it looked like it did when I first got up there.  I checked in the top of the hive again and there was still fighting going on so to be safe I put a wet towel over the hive to try to deter robbing.  I took a stroll around my property to see if by any chance they landed in a tree somewhere, but no sign of them.  So am I right?  Was this an absconding event?  I will go in the hive tomorrow morning and report what it looks like in there.     

[TheHoneyPump]

Hey, I want to ask you guys something about condensing the hive that's confusing me a little bit.  FYI, I'm in all 8 frame mediums.  So I've got essentially one box worth of bees, and the phrase I usually hear is that for winter you should have the hive been the same size as the bees can fill, so they can keep warm more efficiently.  My question is, this hive has more stores than bees, they have 4 frames of brood, about 5 frames of pollen, and almost a full honey super.  How do I condense them without taking their stores from them?

Recommendation:  This may be too descriptive, my nature so there it is. 

Your goal is to basically completely tear the hive apart and push the reset button placing the colony into one box as follows:
1.  Find the queen, the old good one that you are keeping, cage her, and put her in your pocket for safety while you do everything else.
2.  Kill the other queen uncerimoniously and toss her in the grass.
3.  Take the hive apart, setting boxes aside.  Select a box that is empty of bees and take all of the frames out of it.  Scrape it clean of bur comb and propolis.
4.  Clean off the bottom board thoroughly.
5.  Put that emptied box onto the bottom board.  Reduce the entrance to between 4 to 5 bees wide at the most.
Hereon:  Frame positions left to right starting at left edge:  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8. As you are selecting and placing frames in next steps, get your hive tool out and scrap all the bars of the frames of bur comb and such.  Really clean things up. As you are selecting frames for next steps, pretty much disregard the brood.  You have no choice but to be sacrificing some, and btw you do not want it anyway as it is likely infested. Do not keep any scrapings, toss all in the trash.
6.  Select the 5 heaviest fullest honey frames from all of the boxes. Place those into the new cleaned empty box on the bottom board in positions 1 2 3 7 8.
7.  Select the 2 frames that have the most pollen and also as much honey on them as possible. These are the next fullest frames you can find. These may also have small patch of brood on them but you are first and foremost want them full of resources. Have complete disregard for any brood in this step. Do not be tempted to select a brood frame over the pollen/honey frames. Place those two frames in position 5 and 6
8.  Take the ONE frame that has the most HEALTHY brood on it. This may not be the frame that has the most brood, you are looking for the one that is the most healthy and well organized. It may be the frame that has the smallest brood patch on it. It may be mostly empty with only eggs or it may also have some pollen/honey stores on it. This is your -new nest- frame.  Place that frame in position 4.
9.  Now shake all the bees and scramblers into the centre of the fine new home you just built for them. Target the top bar of the brood frame in position 4.  Shake all bees in from the rest of the frames of all the other boxes into the new hive body.  Once they've settled down a bit, make a note of how many frames of bees there are in the box, colony size.  You will use this as a gauge later as to if things getting better or getting worse.
10.  Place an ApiVar strip between frames 3 and 4.  Place another one between frames 5 and 6.
11.  Take the queen in cage out of your pocket. Isn't she pretty, having been safely kept warm and cozy away from all the ruckus you just made. Quietly release her into the gap between top bars of frames 4 and 5. Watch her sniff around a bit then she walks down, big wide waddling, all-in safe and sound.
12.  Put the lid on, clean up the area, haul away the equipment.  Walk away.
13.  Bag and freeze overnight all the frames that were removed.  If freezer is small, just do a few frames at a time, no biggie.  As you take them out, scrape the bars clean.  Scrape clean the boxes.  Do not keep any of the scrapings.  Toss in the trash. Put the equipment into storage ready for spring.
14.  Go drink some hot chocolate or binge on a bag of chips.
15.  Do not open the hive again for at least 1 week.  After 1 week check in for bee health and active queen and not queen cells.  Are they all still in there?  Are they looking good, bunch of happy, buzzy, fuzzy bees?  Or, are they totally done for now.
16. You have accomplished a healthy hive that is treated and has enough resources to make the winter.  Wrap them up, or whatever your wintering configuration is.  Done.  Go eat some more chips.
17.  Remove the ApiVar strips at 6+ weeks.
 

[paus]

Could it be that you had too many bees and had an October swarm,  it does happen.  Have you looked for queen cells that look recently opened?

[The15thMember]

Recommendation:  This may be too descriptive, my nature so there it is. 

Your goal is to basically completely tear the hive apart and push the reset button placing the colony into one box as follows:
1.  Find the queen, the old good one that you are keeping, cage her, and put her in your pocket for safety while you do everything else.
2.  Kill the other queen uncerimoniously and toss her in the grass.
3.  Take the hive apart, setting boxes aside.  Select a box that is empty of bees and take all of the frames out of it.  Scrape it clean of bur comb and propolis.
4.  Clean off the bottom board thoroughly.
5.  Put that emptied box onto the bottom board.  Reduce the entrance to between 4 to 5 bees wide at the most.
Hereon:  Frame positions left to right starting at left edge:  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8. As you are selecting and placing frames in next steps, get your hive tool out and scrap all the bars of the frames of bur comb and such.  Really clean things up. As you are selecting frames for next steps, pretty much disregard the brood.  You have no choice but to be sacrificing some, and btw you do not want it anyway as it is likely infested. Do not keep any scrapings, toss all in the trash.
6.  Select the 5 heaviest fullest honey frames from all of the boxes. Place those into the new cleaned empty box on the bottom board in positions 1 2 3 7 8.
7.  Select the 2 frames that have the most pollen and also as much honey on them as possible. These are the next fullest frames you can find. These may also have small patch of brood on them but you are first and foremost want them full of resources. Have complete disregard for any brood in this step. Do not be tempted to select a brood frame over the pollen/honey frames. Place those two frames in position 5 and 6
8.  Take the ONE frame that has the most HEALTHY brood on it. This may not be the frame that has the most brood, you are looking for the one that is the most healthy and well organized. It may be the frame that has the smallest brood patch on it. It may be mostly empty with only eggs or it may also have some pollen/honey stores on it. This is your -new nest- frame.  Place that frame in position 4.
9.  Now shake all the bees and scramblers into the centre of the fine new home you just built for them. Target the top bar of the brood frame in position 4.  Shake all bees in from the rest of the frames of all the other boxes into the new hive body.  Once they've settled down a bit, make a note of how many frames of bees there are in the box, colony size.  You will use this as a gauge later as to if things getting better or getting worse.
10.  Place an ApiVar strip between frames 3 and 4.  Place another one between frames 5 and 6.
11.  Take the queen in cage out of your pocket. Isn't she pretty, having been safely kept warm and cozy away from all the ruckus you just made. Quietly release her into the gap between top bars of frames 4 and 5. Watch her sniff around a bit then she walks down, big wide waddling, all-in safe and sound.
12.  Put the lid on, clean up the area, haul away the equipment.  Walk away.
13.  Bag and freeze overnight all the frames that were removed.  If freezer is small, just do a few frames at a time, no biggie.  As you take them out, scrape the bars clean.  Scrape clean the boxes.  Do not keep any of the scrapings.  Toss in the trash. Put the equipment into storage ready for spring.
14.  Go drink some hot chocolate or binge on a bag of chips.
15.  Do not open the hive again for at least 1 week.  After 1 week check in for bee health and active queen and not queen cells.  Are they all still in there?  Are they looking good, bunch of happy, buzzy, fuzzy bees?  Or, are they totally done for now.
16. You have accomplished a healthy hive that is treated and has enough resources to make the winter.  Wrap them up, or whatever your wintering configuration is.  Done.  Go eat some more chips.
17.  Remove the ApiVar strips at 6+ weeks.
 

Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you!!  My nature is to be overly descriptive as well and this is right up my alley!  The only part of this process that I will not follow is step 2, since I have an insect collection, as well as a sister who can make jewelry, and a queen would be a great addition to my collection and could also be resined and made into a lovely necklace, so into the freezer it will be for her.  My only other question is this.  If I'm going to spend the money on the ApiVar, would it be better to spend the money on a queen, since the girls did supersede the old queen, and I can't be 100% sure which queen is which or that the one queen isn't a daughter?  Also, is there a particular reason you are recommending ApiVar?  With my desire to be chemical free ideally, I'd naturally gravitate to formic acid if I'm doing a "hard treatment".     
   

[TheHoneyPump]

Which queen to keep is a decision you will have to make.  You will know her when you see her. Trust your gut sense. She'll be the plumpest one walking about with authority, in fitness and comfort.  The smaller faster one is the one you don't want.  If fate is on your side, you will not have to choose, there will be only one left when you look in.  If there are none, well then it is all done.
For reasons previously stated, late queens really suck, therefore no I would not recommend purchasing a new queen at this point in the season. What lays before you is a decision of trying to help them as described or terminating the hive altogether and restock it in the spring.  It you do give them a chance, as to which queen to keep ... you will know her when you see her ;)

Apivar is suggested because it is proven, it is easy to use with no need for any extra equipment (vaporizer), it is reasonable price wise, there are no aftereffects no residuals.  ( In essence we are ALL treatment free.  Which means no treatment until absolutely necessary. No one likes to or wants to ever put chemicals into a beehive.  However, once a life or death situation for the bees is laid at their feet, do you treat them so they continue to thrive or do you choose death for them.  And if you choose death do you leave them to suffer through it and dwindle to the last agonized bee or do you have compassion and end it all abruptly by terminating the whole hive at once.  The responsible choice is to end the suffering by treating or end the suffering by terminating. )

Kool idea on encasing the other queen in resin.  You'd best do that as soon as possible so her body does not dry and shrink, losing the appeal.

You may have some tough decisions immediately in front of you on this one.  Whichever you do keep to the path of -whats best for the bees- which sometimes is not the one that allows a problem to linger.  Whatever you do, and whichever way you go, always have fun with it and enjoy the experience!

[The15thMember]

Which queen to keep is a decision you will have to make.  You will know her when you see her.  She'll be the plumpest one walking about with authority, in fitness and comfort.  The smaller faster one is the one you don't want.
For reasons previously stated, late queens really suck, therefore no I would not recommend purchasing a new queen at this point in the season. What lays before you is a decision of trying to help them as described or terminating the hive altogether and restock it in the spring.  It you do give them a chance, as to which queen to keep ... you will know her when you see her ;)

Kool idea on encasing the other queen in resin.  You'd best do that as soon as possible so her body does not dry and shrink, losing the appeal.

You may have some tough decisions immediately in front of you on this one.  Whichever you do keep to the path of -whats best for the bees- which sometimes is not the one that allows a problem to linger.  Whatever you do, and whichever way you go, always have fun with it and enjoy the experience!

Oh right, late queens are bad.  Sorry, getting excited and not thinking.  And don't worry, the learning experience is the fun part for me.  And thank you so much again.  Anytime a step-by-step list of instructions is applicable I prefer it, and will follow your advice to the letter. 

I don't want to seem pushy, but I edited my previous post kind of late with another question I forgot to add.  I probably should have just waited until you responded, because maybe you were typing when I made the change?  I was wondering if you were recommending ApiVar specifically over other brands, as my chemical free desire would lead me to FormicPro instead.  Just curious.   

[TheHoneyPump]

Answered in my edit above.  Have a quick look.
Good luck with them!