Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: David McLeod on November 17, 2010, 06:53:54 pm
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My head has been on a swivel as I go down the road trying to determine my nectar sources for next year. There is one that I have a question on. Bradford Pear (Pryus calleryi), is it a significant source of nectar or mainly pollen? Just 400 yards down the road is a half acre lot totally infested with the stuff. It is an invasive species around here and is common along the roadsides and old fields. I probably have ten or more acres of the stuff within flight distance of the yard. Another question is how dependable a source is soybean? Right at a mile away is a field of aproximately 15 acres by my guess.
My main spring flow is going to be the tulip poplar as it and sweet gum are the dominant trees in the area. Third most common seems to be a mix of florida and red maple so the early pollen is there. No hackberry, black locust or sorrel (sourwood) :(. Also within flight distance are several dozen acres of old fields so the goldenrod/aster should be reliable. The fruit tree bloom will consist of a scattering of apple and pear in the neighborhood, no orchards. Hollies (ornamental) are common in the yards throughout the area. Between myself and a couple neighbors will be at least an acres worth of garden veggies including melons and cukes plus corn, beans, peas and okra.
Well what have y'all got and if there any georgia folks around or to the south of Atlanta add whatever I may have missed.
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a David snip..
Another question is how dependable a source is soybean?
tecumseh:
I have never had bees on soybeans. The long term story seems to suggest that nectar production by soybeans can either be good or zip. Soil type often seems to be the largest variable.
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I have my bees in the middle of 60 acres of soybeans and 15 tulip poplar trees next to the hives and never seen bees in either of them!!
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a local farmer had 100 hives in his soy fields. He told me bees can give him 3 - 4 extra bushels per acre. So they are at least a pollen source.
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A few people get upset about bees over GM crops. I don't (at this point in my life). But that is something to consider. Ask about the soybeans to see if they are GM (odds are). Just wanted to throw that out there.
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I don't know enough to determine if I should be concerned over GM crops but I am concerned over pesticides and wonder if I should be concerned about a site that my bees would be on if and when pesticides are applied.
How does one approach these landowners to ask? I would think one would get some resistance if someone came around asking about what chemicals are used on their property. In the local area we do still have some agriculture (soybean and cotton) though I suspect most of it is as much for retaining agriculture tax benefits as it is about growing a crop since most of these fields abut and are probobly slated for sub division development.
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i am fortunate that there are lots of berry fields around and bees are used. people are pretty good about not spraying when the bees are on. i did have to talk to the church on the road and some of my neighbors about spraying. when i went to the church, i just explained that i kept bees and that spraying the blackberries when they were in bloom not only was bad for my bees, but not the best way to keep the blackberries in check. they didn't know any better and were great about it. i gave them some honey this year.
if you go to the farmers and explain that you are a beekeeper and are trying to find out what is sprayed and when, i think most will understand your concern and cooperate. nothing lost by trying.
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David,
I think you're right about showing up cold at his front door telling him not to spray is crops. A shotgun may be involved.
Try going to the local extension office. Talk to the agents in there. They should know who is using what chemicals around your location & when those chemicals are in use. If they don't they will know when the next meeting will be. All these AG types (farmers) go to a few meeting each year to certify for this, or update their license on that. Maybe you can find your farmer at the meeting and easily strike up a conversation about your concerns. Adding a bribe of free honey, like Kathy suggested, will help your case. Plus you will learn much about what is going on around you & your bees. Who's using GMO and who's not. It would help your conversation with farmers if you knew what they know about the current state of the art of their crops. Help them and you will make friends.
Or do a presentation about bees for them. 10 or 15 minutes of yield models & forecasted revenue benefits per acre might spur a healthy interest in yours and everyone elses bees.
It might sound like a lot of work but hey!, you're a beekeeper. That comes with the territory. And there are bonuses. One cattle guy down the road from me wants me to put hives on his property just for his garden.
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Crops such as soybeans can present some danger to bees. But as already presented, bees sometimes won't touch the stuff anyways. But....
* About 95% of the soybean seed (and field corn) are pretreated with neonicotinoid systemic pesticides. And we know that many times it's not one spray that does the damage but the added effect of many.
* Many state agriculture departments are promoting "no-till" farming practices. This involves the spraying of a field to kill weeds instead of traditional deep tilling. One day you have lush greed fields of soil amending plants like clover, then the next, you have barren wastelands after spraying. I wrote about this a couple months back. Link on this and scroll down to the no till farming writeup.
http://www.bjornapiaries.com/beekeeperramblings.html (http://www.bjornapiaries.com/beekeeperramblings.html)
Myself, I try to stay as far away as possible to field corn and soybeans. If in doubt, just ask the farmer to see a few seeds from the bag of corn or soybean seed they are planting. If they are coated with pink or blue, or about any other color, they are systemic treated.
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Well, y'all have given me even more reason to bug the ag agent. I'm already in there once or twice a month with my marketing. Maybe getting in touch with the farmers directly can be helpful to me in other ways as well. LOL
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I still wonder about the bradford pear though. The thing is a weed around here and if I can expect a flow off of it I'm good if not I guess the bees need the pollen.
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I have a few Bradford Pears down the street. Never seen a bee on the flowers.
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Here is a good article on 'Pesticides Applied to Crops and Honey Bee Toxicity'. Published May of 2010
(http://www.extension.org/pages/Pesticides_Applied_to_Crops_and_Honey_Bee_Toxicity (http://www.extension.org/pages/Pesticides_Applied_to_Crops_and_Honey_Bee_Toxicity))
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Pear is an important source of pollen,but not nectar.The pear nectar averages under 3%,so I would assume that the pear gets pollinated by by the pollen gathering workers and not the girls looking for nectar.
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latebee,
Are you talking about Pear (Pyrus communis) or Bradford Pear (pyrus calleryana). The bees love common wild Pear (P. communis). Whether they're on it for the pollen or nectar i don't yet know. The wild pears in the back woods are loaded down the the ground with bee pollinated fruit each year. So best guess but the bees are all over it at bloom.
I've not seen the bees on Bradford Pear (P. calleryana) though. Bradfords do self pollinate. Plus there are many horticultural varieties. Pears species of a type we get fruit from should be attractive to bees. One way or another.
If someone has seen bees on a Bradford please speak up
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a local farmer had 100 hives in his soy fields. He told me bees can give him 3 - 4 extra bushels per acre. So they are at least a pollen source.
in my knowledge soya is self pollinating.
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I have trained nectar source evaluation last 10 years when I noticed that yied may be 3-fold between sites and even 5 fold.
Rape is good but it needs something else mass blooming if rape yield is unsuccesfull. Rape does not like hot weather. When rape has bloomed 2 weeks wha tbees do then during 8 weeks?
The distance. .....efficient surplus distance is under one kilometre. If the rape fiels is 1,5 far away, 50% of yield will be losed.
Dry sandy and cliffy soils are worst. Bees need warm and dry soils suffer easily lack of water.
We have tens of hectars fireweed in dry forest areas but it is better stay out of there.
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a local farmer had 100 hives in his soy fields. He told me bees can give him 3 - 4 extra bushels per acre. So they are at least a pollen source.
in my knowledge soya is self pollinating.
Many crops and fruits are self -pollinating.
But is has been shown that additional pollination for these crops does increase yields many times up to 10% as compared to no pollination.
For some crops like self-pollinating fruits trees, where they will be thinned anyways, no farmer is going to pay for an extra 10%. I'm sure the soybean farmer will not pay either for a few bushels more, but he will see an increase with pollination.
Self-pollinating fruit crops may also see a better uniformed and developed fruit with honey bee pollination.
So lets not discount pollination even on crops that could, if need be, go without pollination. Honey bees give in many ways even when we are not paying attention.
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In my country no one pay for pollination. Should I take honey 50 or 100 kg per hive?
I try maximize my nectar sources. I do not count on others pollination needs. In my part of country beehives are few and most crops depend on natural insect pollination.
I have here 50 hectares rape fields inside a mile and 2-4 hives per hectare is recomded. It is madness to put 100 hives or 50 on same field. If rape does not give yield, I get nothing. It is said that don't put eggs in same basket.
On variable pastures I get maximum yield when I put 2-4 hives in one point. Hives give easily about 100 kg per hive but all sites or hives are not so succesfull. Things hapens.
Best yield pastures are here farm orchards, dandelion, raspberry, rape, fireweed, thistles
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Finski,
I was speaking in general. The farmer had 2 yards with 50 hives each. the 'Fields' are actually several hundred acres in size. These fields are surrounded by Yellow Poplar/Oak/Laural Woodlands. Plus all his neighbors grow soy or pasture as well. There is More than enough forage for his bees.
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But 50 hives in one place is surely too much. Out of mind.
There are researches that bees go to nearest flowers.. They do not know that 200 m away there are flowers full of nectar.
When it has been researched rape fields, bees pollination is not even in whole field. It maybe some direction and only some area.
High hive density is used when the farmer is making F1 seeds.
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Ha David,
I'm on the east side of Fayetteville and have several sourwood trees around plus the bees were all over the sumac when it bloomed. To help I planted several strips of buckwheat in mid-summer at about 3 week intervals.
tg
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But 50 hives in one place is surely too much. Out of mind.
There are researches that bees go to nearest flowers.. They do not know that 200 m away there are flowers full of nectar.
Bees go to what is the best pay day--nectar source with highest sugar content --they pass up some floral sources in order to reach the source they seak--personally i believe 1 mile is where bees concentrate for the SURPLUS to be made--but i know you already know this is true-- :lol: RDY-B
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you are just wrong.
You personally believe ... I can't help then...
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Bees do pass up some flowers to concentrate on other higher quality nectar sources. In fact, there is a certain amount of competition among foragers within the hive, and different small variations of the waggle dance when it comes to quality and the amount of "selling" one bee performs when it comes to what nectar is better than the others. And when a higher quality nectar source is found, a higher number of forages will be gathered to this location.
You may always have scouts bringing back and discovering new nectar sources. Then they come back and go through the process again. Studies have shown that most of any one colony will be recruited to one particular flower source, especially when is comes to higher sugar content of certain flower sources. Bees do not work anywhere they just happen upon. They are recruited by scout forages who come back and bees know which are better choices.
Sorry finski...I think...no make that...I know you have it wrong. ;)
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you are just wrong.
You personally believe ... I can't help then...
HA HA :lol: everybody knows -flying over one mile -starts to burn as much energy (nectar)
as they are bringing back- 8-) no SURPLUS honey that trip-espcialy big hives they eat A LOT - ;) RDY-B
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Hah hah. I have read new researches what bees do on wide rape field.
Bees cannot optimize their foraging if hives has been migrated in wrong places.
But they are your hives and your yields. Do what you want. Just explain your self the 3-fold difference bee yards.
Everyone knows! Sounds real knowledge from father to son.
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Bees are not so clever as many believe.
When you look foraging, it may be 5 bees per square metre. In these cases flowers are not fast enough to excrecete nectar.
Rasberry is so atractive that near hives a bee comes into flower every 10 seconds to suck nectar. Do you think that they get stomach full.
When rasberry blooms 8 kg add daily are not rare in the hive on balance. Top incomes were 15 kg daily last summer per hive. It means that flowers are full of nectar, vast bloomming areas and very short flyinf distance. Bees fly from flower to flower and it is the biggest job.
Then I can follow returning bees. Do they fly abdomen hanging or abdomen slim. Slim means that they are obliged to fly over dry forest and nursed fields and they get a load very far away.
If you get 100 kg capped yield in 3 weeks, then you may say to me hah hah. I will stand it.
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On variable pastures I get maximum yield when I put 2-4 hives in one point. Hives give easily about 100 kg per hive but all sites or hives are not so succesfull. Things hapens.
The distance. .....efficient surplus distance is under one kilometre. If the rape fiels is 1,5 far away, 50% of yield will be losed.
Dry sandy and cliffy soils are worst. Bees need warm and dry soils suffer easily lack of water.
We have tens of hectars fireweed in dry forest areas but it is better stay out of there.
sometimes it is beter to NOT go for VARIABLE PASTURES-select prmium nectar locations- 8-) RDY-B
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sometimes it is beter to NOT go for VARIABLE PASTURES-select prmium nectar locations- 8-) RDY-B
Like in stocks, invest only in best stocks.
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David,
I think you're right about showing up cold at his front door telling him not to spray is crops. a shotgun may be involved.
The days of ignorance are passing. There is strict rules regarding the application of pestisides. Being a good neighbor and discussing concerns is healthy for our community. Fear has no place.
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http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/2000/2168.html (http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/2000/2168.html)
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http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/2000/2168.html (http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/2000/2168.html)
Very interesting list. Some interesting details.
At least here bees are higly interested to forage clover pollen.
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I think you're right about showing up cold at his front door telling him not to spray is crops. a shotgun may be involved.
The days of ignorance are passing. There is strict rules regarding the application of pestisides. Being a good neighbor and discussing concerns is healthy for our community. Fear has no place.
Ignorance!?...
Listen junior
All I'm saying is it's probably not a great idea to walk up to a farmer you've never met before and start telling him his business because you have a couple of hives your worried about!
Try reading the whole comment before your knee jerks you out of your chair next time. You missed the part where i suggest he involves himself with the farming community. He could learn about their cultural practices while promoting Beekeeping.
Strict Pesticide rules? - I've carried a State Pesticide License in 5 states now. That's why I recommend working with the Extension Service & the Farmers. They all mostly do the same thing from year to year. Why bring only one guy on board when you could make lots of friends instead.
Fear!? - What are you talking about?...
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Pollination management for canola in Australia
http://www.rirdc.gov.au/programs/established-rural-industries/pollination/canola.cfm (http://www.rirdc.gov.au/programs/established-rural-industries/pollination/canola.cfm)
There are a number of factors within the field which have a direct bearing on the pollination efficiency of honey bees:
Crop layout
•Pasture layout and blossom density: Canola is a broadacre crop planted generally in large open paddocks.
•Access: From a beekeeper's point of view, all-weather truck access is highly desirable. Limited access may lead to an increased workload for the beekeeper, uneven placement of hives and thus inefficient pollination.
Density of bees
Results showed an improvement in seed yield of 46% in the presence of three honey bee hives per hectare, compared with the absence of hives(Sabbahi et al. 2005). Further information from Canada indicates the need for larger numbers of bees hives for the pollination of hybrid canola seed, where stocking rates of six hives per hectare have been reported (Somerville 2002). These higher stocking rates may reduce honey produced by as much as 75% as the main aim is to maximise seed production (Somerville 2002). a normal stocking rate for honey production was stated as 0.5 hives/hectare for non- hybrid canola varieties (Somerville 2002).
Arrangement of hives
Manning and Wallis (2005) found that the beneficial effects of honey bee foraging declined after a distance of 200m from an apiary site consisting of 100 hives. While Somerville (2002) suggests that honey bees will travel several kilometres to forage on canola.
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Foraging distances
Average distance is about one mile.
Pollen is foraged too from vast area
http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/270/1515/569.full.pdf (http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/270/1515/569.full.pdf)
How to use it?
Our farming landscape is changing all the time. Now we use wide safe belt around small rivers that soil and nutrients does not go into water. Former these has been cattle pastures. Now they grow only hay.
I am going to plant to those zones bee plants. It is not my land but however. The most productive is raspberry. It speads with its roots and gives nectar nex year. Farmers hate willows. I am going to plant "low profile willows" too into safe belts. Low profile means that it is not easy to notice.
There are some good plants which survive inside hay areas: Centaurea jacea, Epilobium angustifolium, Trifolium medium, Stellaria holostea
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finiski writes:
But 50 hives in one place is surely too much. Out of mind.
tecumseh:
I am not certain about the bloom in Finland but there are place here where 60 hives to a yard is pretty much standard operating procedure. those places I was personally familar with could produce 60 to 80 kg of surplus in a season... in the very best of years perhaps 100 kg of surplus.
There are other places where I have kept bees that would not support (ie 0 surplus) 2 hives at a location.
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I am not certain about the bloom in Finland but there are place here where 60 hives to a yard is pretty much standard operating procedure. .
That research was from Australia.
But if it standard, you keep your hives in 50 hives punch.
We have a standard 10 hives in one place. That same figure was 80 years ago and still valid figure.
Problem is that pastures have changed totally and hives are 4 times bigger than 80 years ago.
It is same with rape. 50 years ago standard was 4 hives per hectar and it is still the same and hives are 3 times bigge now.
Australian have critical attitude against those "standards". I just told my opinion and you keep those 50 hives in one punch and get 100 kg per hive. I wonder how you get 5000 kg honey from one point.
But your average yields are far from 100 kg or even 100 pounds
http://outdoorplace.org/beekeeping/honey1.htm (http://outdoorplace.org/beekeeping/honey1.htm)
Honey production in 2004 from producers with five or more colonies
totaled 184 million pounds, up 1 percent from 2003. There were 2.56
million colonies producing honey in 2004, down 2 percent from 2003.
Yield per colony averaged 71.8 pounds, up 3 percent from the 69.9 pounds
in 2003.
But do beekeepers tell the truth about their yields. Not at least in my country. The truth for tax collectors is something. No one can earn his living with such figures.
How many hives ... I have not calculated.
In eastern Europe hives have vanished but they have not been calculated ever.
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if you have 700 hives, the kilo price is 2$ and the yield 35 kilos, who runs business with that and drive a truck?
700 x 35 x 2 = 49 000 $
Pollinating service is often the main money source.
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latebee,
Are you talking about Pear (Pyrus communis) or Bradford Pear (pyrus calleryana). The bees love common wild Pear (P. communis). Whether they're on it for the pollen or nectar i don't yet know.
I am referring to pears other than the ornamental Bradford(which by the way bears no fruit) pear.
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tecumseh:I am not certain about the bloom in Finland but there are place here where 60 hives to a yard is pretty much standard operating procedure. those places I was personally familar with could produce 60 to 80 kg of surplus in a season... in the very best of years perhaps 100 kg of surplus.
Sounds interesting , what kinds of nectar source are in the area ?
edward :-P
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edward ask:
what kinds of nectar source are in the area ?
tecumseh:
almost solid alfalfa with a just a bit of sunflowers and buckwheat here and there. north dakota was the area and no one I knew sat down there all winter. nectar yields were highly dependent on rainfall during critical periods of time in the summer months. bee yards were registered with the state so you had to maintain a minimum of 1 mile between yards which encouraged you to crowd individual hives into a yard.
here the migratory folks (winter location) often have yards of 40 plus but they are being maintained till spring primarily via a syrup bucket.