Latest science of Royal Jelly in plain English.

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

{How Honeybees Defy Gravity with Royal Jelly to Raise Queens}
Title of subject article.

I came across this article while searching PubMed for new discoveries in Honey bees.  The article contains interesting facts pertaining to Royal Jelly.  I want you to Focus on the verticle position of a queen cell.  I never gave much thought to this unique position.  I will summarize:

Queen cells are uniquely constructed verticle whereas all other cells are constructed in horizontal position.  This verticle position of the queen cell poses particular problems with gravity due to the fact the developing queen is attached to the top of the cell, not the bottom.  Therefore the thickness of Royal Jelly is critical as a means of holding the developing queen larva upside down.  That is the developing queen must be suspended to float on the surface of the Royal Jelly without falling to the bottom of the cell.  The nurse bees solve this suspension/gravity problem by creating a network of fibers within the Royal Jelly.  Miniature ropes (fibers) if you will, hold the queen to the surface of the Royal Jelly.  The article goes into great detail on how the miniature ropes are chemical constructed.

OK, here is the punch line, the authors of the above subject article purpose the quantity NOT quality of Royal Jelly is a critical factor.  I would have guessed the opposite,,,,, that is quality is the critical factor.  In more detail, in other words,  the queen cell is made verticle to allow for the excess of food needed to rear a queen whereas the typical horizontal cell would not allow the space needed for extra food as required by a developing queen.  However the verticle position poses gravity problems that are overcome as discussed.

I never gave much thought to the verticle position of a queen cell,  that is until now.  The more I learn about honey bees the less I know.
Blessings

[Bush_84]

Interesting. So could one come to the conclusion that since quantity instead of quality of royal is what matters then feeding pollen sub isn?t much worse off than actual pollen?

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Bush, yes Sir, if you look at the ingredients of substitute pollen with every possible trace element and vitamins then one could conclude that sub pollen is actually better for the bees.  However the bees prefer real pollen,,,,, which I for one,,,, have to give the benefit of doubt to the bees....  a bee knows best.

In the Fall when a dearth occurs, my bees appear to enjoy the sub pollen, rolling in the powder with what appears to me as shear delight of the bees.
Blessings

[eltalia]

"I never gave much thought to the verticle position of a queen cell,  that is until now. 
The more I learn about honey bees the less I know."

Never dwelled on it much myself Van until a late post in 2017 that talked
around horizontal queen cell manipulation. I tried one effort with a half
dozen QC(s) to get 100% mortality, probably just me.
So yes, this is interesting knowing many do use horizontal pupation
 successfully.

Bill

[Hops Brewster]

I think that as this investigation continues and more facts become known they will discover that quality matters, too.

[Bush_84]

I think that as this investigation continues and more facts become known they will discover that quality matters, too.

I?m sure quality also matters but I think this is saying that quantity is more important that quality. It?s like saying you?d get a better queen with a lot of mediocre royal jelly than a queen made with a little high quality royal jelly. As the recipe of pollen subs nears the quality of pollen this becomes even more important. Randy Oliver did a study comparing pollen subs and from what I recall ultra bee built up pretty close to how pollen reared colonies did.

It raises the question of what would a colony do with a comb of dry ultra bee rubbed into it do?  Would it utilize it as it would pollen?  If so does that mean you could simply take a comb full of dry sub and stick it next to your queen cells and call it good?

[little john]

Fascinating ...  thanks for that, Van

For anyone who wants the link:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982218302070

And - there's a downloadable .pdf link in the top left-hand corner of that webpage if you prefer that format.
LJ

[Bush_84]

So this is what drives me nuts about scientific studies...it?s impossible to find them without paying. After reading through the study they do not seem to focus at all on the quantity vs quality aspect of our discussion. They make one little comment about it and link their citations. Now let?s see if I can find their citations. Nope. Of course their references do not provide links.

Anyways I would like to point out that this particular study did not study any aspect of quality vs quantity. They primarily studied what kept the queen in the vertical cell. Apparently two separate ingredients at a specific ph is the answer.

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

I think that as this investigation continues and more facts become known they will discover that quality matters, too.

Yes Sir, Hops, certainly quality of Royal Jelly is important.  Thanks for pointing that out, 100% agreed.  I should have made that clear, I did not so thanks for your advice or correction.

The authors demonstrated that quantity is more important though.  Understand rancid royal jelly would not yield queens, no questions there.

Consider the following and apply this logic:  A well fed average queen will outperform a high pedigree underfed queen.

Quality is certainly important, the author{s} wish to demonstrate that quantity is more critical, assuming all royal jelly is made equally which we realize there exists variables.
Blessings

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

{Anyways I would like to point out that this particular study did not study any aspect of quality vs quantity.} Agreed Mr. Bush.  WOW, you actually read the science article, CHEERS, I thought I was the only nerd on Beemaster.

The authors made no attempt to determine quality.  I thought that odd also.  However the subject matter is:  all cells in the bee hive are horizontal except for the Queen cell which is verticle.  Verticle due to requirements of large amount of Royal Jelly, and subsequent problems with solutions to a verticle cell.
Blessings

[Bush_84]

As part of my training I took statistics and classes on scientific studies. I am also forced to read studies now and again due to my job. I will however admit that I generally just read abstract and discussion. Results can be fun if the article is worth it.

[minz]

I think that as this investigation continues and more facts become known they will discover that quality matters, too.

at the Oregon state BK this year one of the talks was on the protein and the acids. It was suggested that the reason the bees come out strong initially is that the bees have that in their system but run out since it is not in the substitute.

[little john]

After reading through the study they do not seem to focus at all on the quantity vs quality aspect of our discussion. They make one little comment about it and link their citations. Now let?s see if I can find their citations. Nope. Of course their references do not provide links.

The title of the paper is: How Honeybees Defy Gravity with Royal Jelly to Raise Queens - that particular mechanism was the primary focus of their enquiry.  Any comments regarding quality vs quantity are 'asides': just tid-bits they thought were maybe worthy of making a passing comment about.  Their references do provide links (at least, when running Foxit Reader) - although you may need to pay for access, as the majority of scientific journals are run as subscription-based profit-making businesses.  I also wish that info was freely available.  Yes - it's frustrating ...

Van: all cells in the bee hive are horizontal except for the Queen cell which is verticle.  Verticle due to requirements of large amount of Royal Jelly, and subsequent problems with solutions to a verticle cell.

That's not how I read it.  Q/C's are verticle (the reason for this is not given - but how else would such a long cell fit within a pre-existing comb structure having such tight spacing ?) - and the mechanism for "Defying Gravity with Royal Jelly" was 'developed' (in an evolutionary sense) to compensate for that necessary orientation, rather than acting as the precursor for it.  i.e. it's a mechanism of adaption.  And a very clever one too ...
LJ

[Bamboo]

Which begs the question are QC's horizontal or vertical in the wild?

[little john]

Why does it "beg the question" ?  The comb spacing in the natural environment is no different than in a man-made bee-hive - or should be.  Queen cells are always vertical - how could they possibly be built horizontally within a comb structure ?
LJ

[Bamboo]

Why does it "beg the question" ?  The comb spacing in the natural environment is no different than in a man-made bee-hive - or should be.  Queen cells are always vertical - how could they possibly be built horizontally within a comb structure ?
LJ

I thought it was a reasonable question. Can you point me to the research that shows that QC's are always built vertically in the wild? The man made hive is just that, man made, and was designed for producing honey and the collection of it. We all know that bees are very adaptable. I see no reason why they couldn't "adapt" different queen rearing methods in different situations. Just because we raise QC's vertically on bars and hives only permit vertical raising because of space doesn't mean that that is the way they raise their own queens in the wild. I look forward to your proof.

[little john]

I suspect your post is an attempt at a wind-up ... but I won't play that game.

To be annoyingly pedantic for a moment - only swarm cells are truly vertical cells.  Supersedure and emergency cells are part-horizontal and part-vertical - and, despite what that paper says - in the latter two cases the Royal Jelly is contained within their horizontal sections.
LJ

[beepro]

I do trial run on little bee "experiment" to see how they react.  Over the years I
have done many of them to find out more about the bees.  In this case about vertical or horizontal Q-cell position, I can put an accepted Q-cell into a horizontal position to see how the bees will react to it.  Keep in minds that a horizontal cell will not hold the more liquid RJ because it will be leaning toward one side \ making it unfavorable for the developing queen larva.   In a vertical cell position, the RJ is more proportionately distributed around the top of the cell.  The workers can regulate how much RJ to give the Q-cell so that it will not fall off because of gravity.  I've also seen that a queen larva fell off the cell and the workers deposited more RJ and extending the cell to 2" trying to save it.   In the end they gave up and destroyed the cell.     More liquid RJ and a heavy larva will not work in this case.  As the larva develop into bigger grub the workers will regulate the thickness of the RJ almost to the cell cap stage.   
In the wild the bees will use the same method of vertical cell when raising the queen.  This is because it is the most efficient method given the close proximity of the gap between the combs.  Since the bees will not on purpose destroy their home (the comb), they will attempt to fit the Q-cell in between.