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Author Topic: Which Queen is mated? What to do with the others?  (Read 1560 times)

Offline Ben Framed

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Which Queen is mated? What to do with the others?
« on: April 01, 2020, 08:04:57 pm »
I caught a swarm today which had multiple queens. Though I have heard of this, and some of us have discussed this, I did not know what to do with the extra queens in this case.

First of all I did not know which one was mated. There is also a possibility that I may have missed some queens. What I did was catch every queen I could and placed them in individual queen clips. I fixed up a 10 frame box with four empty brood combs, placed these queen catchers in between these combs before I released the bees in the box. Now the questions how do I know which queen is mated? If these are virgins they will kill each other if I release them all in this box.

Let me add that I caught this swarm with my bee vac taking my time purposely looking for queens as I went along.

Phillip Hall
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Which Queen is mated? What to do with the others?
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2020, 09:58:05 pm »
Phillip,
None of the queens are mated. The primary swarm leaves with the mated queen only. If the hive swarms again, something it takes multiple queens with it.
It is possible to have a mix in an apiary with numerous hives that swarm at the same time and sometimes they join. More than likely it is a secondary swarm with virgin queens.
Jim Altmiller
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
Ben Franklin

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Which Queen is mated? What to do with the others?
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2020, 10:13:56 pm »
Thanks Jim and good, I suppose I did the right thing catching all I could find and keeping them separated as they would have fought it out for sure? What I do not understand is why didn't the first virgin cut down the others when she hatched? I am glad she didn't for whatever reason.

This was a huge secondary swarm. I do not know how so many bees could fit into one box!  lol.
I would also like to ask; What to do next?  Leave one virgin and do what with the others? Had they been mated I would simply make splits. I have never tried to start a hive with virgins. 

These queens were a beautiful caramel color. I suppose dealing with a swarm, it is always a good idea to look for queens unless we are in a rush. This was a fun experience.

Phillip Hall
« Last Edit: April 01, 2020, 10:40:44 pm by Ben Framed »
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Which Queen is mated? What to do with the others?
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2020, 10:17:10 pm »
Thanks Jim and good, I suppose I did the right thing catching all I could find and keeping them separated as they would have fought it out for sure? What I do not understand is why didn't the first virgin cut down the others when hatched?

This was a huge secondary swarm. I do not know how so many bees could fit into one box!  lol.
I would also like to ask; What to do next?  Leave one virgin and do what with the others? Had they been mated I would simply make splits. I have never tried to start a hive with virgins. 

These queens were a beautiful caramel color. I suppose dealing with a swarm, it is always a good idea to look for queens unless we are in a rush. This was a fun experience.

Phillip Hall

Let me add to this. Will the bees feed all the virgins which are in catching clips or should I do something pronto first thing in the morning? Thanks in advance.
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline Acebird

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Re: Which Queen is mated? What to do with the others?
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2020, 09:41:45 am »
Make up some mating nucs and sell them.  I could use one.
Brian Cardinal
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Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Which Queen is mated? What to do with the others?
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2020, 09:52:00 am »
Virgin queens are attached to light.
Bred queens are attracted to darkness.  The only way I know to show the difference.
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Which Queen is mated? What to do with the others?
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2020, 11:56:20 am »
Thanks friends. I appreciate your feedback. Here's the plan and your feedback will be appreciated.  After sleeping on it and reading your replies this morning, I have decided to leave the queens (4) in the queen cages for a few days. If the bees will feed them they should be safe from the dominant virgin as I am thinking there is no way that I caught all the queens. There were just too many bees in this swarm and I had to miss some queens!

I was using a homemade bee vac, (which is outstanding by the way). I sprayed a lite mist of sugar water on the outside of this swarm. Slowly, without getting in a hurry I worked from the bottom and sides working my way up the clustered swarm, being careful not to over do it and have part of the cluster drop to the ground. All the while I had queen clips ready to go when I would find a queen. This could not have worked out any better I am happy to say!  Any time that I began to notice more flyers than I wanted, I would simply add a (little) more mist. I was careful not to over do this as well.

This will be an experiment for me. "If" there were other queens in this swarm, one should be laying in a few days, and by now, has probably eliminate the competition of missed virgins. If the bees will keep the caged queens fed, they should be plenty safe from extemantion from the loose virgin, virgins, for now. I plan to do as Ace suggested and place these queens in mating nucs once I see eggs in the placed brood comb. I have plenty of these on hand as well (two frame mating nucs).
As I said above, any input will be appreciated, this is new ground for me.

Thanks,

Phillip Hall
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline cao

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Re: Which Queen is mated? What to do with the others?
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2020, 12:01:13 pm »
Mated queens will draw a crowd of workers.  Virgin queens are typically ignored for the most part.

I wouldn't wait too long on making up the mating nucs.  There is a limited time for the queens to be mated.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Which Queen is mated? What to do with the others?
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2020, 12:15:45 pm »
> Mated queens will draw a crowd of workers.  Virgin queens are typically ignored for the most part.
   I wouldn't wait too long on making up the mating nucs.  There is a limited time for the queens to be mated.

   Thanks Cao. I am thinking if the dominant, free roaming virgin is soon mated (and should be on a mating fight as early
   as today), she should be laying as soon a 5-7 days?  If by then I see no queen or eggs, it should be a pretty safe bet
   that the only queens in this new hive are the ones in the cages? If that is so, I can remove three of these and turn loose
   the forth one to dominate this hive? Is this pretty well on target? If so at that time I can add the left over queens to
   mating nucs? will this time frame be ok for the virgins? Thanks for your patience of my many questions.

   Phillip Hall
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline TheHoneyPump

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Re: Which Queen is mated? What to do with the others?
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2020, 01:14:17 pm »
A couple questions and a few thoughts for your consideration:
I am short on time today so please overlook the short form or take any as being curt.  I hope you find the following supplementary to the other support and helpful.

First and foremost:
1). How many hives do you have and how many do you want?  That dictates how many (if any) of these queens you will actually want to be spending time and effort into developing.  From the virgin now today to her first emerging brood is going to be close to a month from now.  Two months to a viable colony.  Unless of course you are going to boost and nurse it by stealing resources from your other hive(s) - weakening the other hives and affecting your honey crop.  If you have made up your 2020 beekeeping plan, the answer what to do with this should be readily apparent from that plan.  Work your plan, stick to your plan.

Q/A: Have what you want already and want to stay as is?  Pinch all the queens you have caught.  Light spray the bees with water to minimize flight and shake all the bees through a queen excluder into an empty box or nuc.  Catch any remaining loose queens found walking and scrambling on the queen excluder.  Pinch off those as well.  Take the box of bees, spray them sugar water that has a few drops of honey bee healthy.  Spray them so they are damped and clamped.  Cannot fly.  Go shake distribute those bees on the doorsteps of your other hives. They will crawl/beg in, be licked off, and readily accepted.

Q/A: Want more hives, have extra equipment to fill, ready to put time and effort, and OK with weakening your other hives?  OK, jump ahead and proceed with below. 

2). Mated queens do go with the swarms. Never assume they are all virgins.  The original momma may be in there.  In an area with many hives swarming on the same day it is also possible for multiple swarms to congregate together, resulting in more mated queens and huge swarm clusters.  First step is to cage all the queens and place them into an empty open frame, no comb.  Open bar frame.  Place the cages at least 4 inches apart on the bar frame.  Put that bar frame into regular hive(s) with combs that have been setup with the swarm bees.  Leave a bit extra space (1/2 inch) on either side of the bar frame.  Come back in 1 to 2 hours.  The bees will be clustering more on the cage that has the mated queen(s).  The other queen cages will have walkers and attendants as well. However it will be VERY noticeable which queen has the most attention.  That one will be mated.  Set her up in a new hive, just like you would do with a package of bees.  Place her cage.  Shake bees through a queen excluder into her hive.  Catch and cage or pinch off any other loose queens scrambling on the QX.  If you catch more, you can repeat the test of caging and seeing if bees tightly cluster on one of them. Repeat.

3). A queen will not take mating flights so long as there are other queens present.  You cannot keep the caged queens in the same box expecting a loose one to mate and lay.  Remove all queens, cage, and bank them in a known stable queenrite colony up in 2nd or 3rd box above a queen excluder with the queenrite hive queen down below in the bottom.  Ensure there are no brood or eggs above the QX, else you may be granted with more queen cells and even more virgins running around in the attic of your bank hive.  Some bees will go up and look after the caged queens, their momma and main nest will carryon as normal down below.

Once you have all the queens sorted then you are ready to makeup mating nucs or kill off queens or some combination thereof.  For the mating nucs, put one caged virgin each of the new nuc(s).  Leave her caged for 3 days.  Go back and put your choice of candy or marshmallow.  Use a thin layer, one the nuc population can work through rather quickly.  Then leave undisturbed for at least 2 weeks.  Come back and check for success/failure by being blessed with a new laying queen or met with disappointment of a lost/failed queen.  Hope for 10%-50% return your time and efforts. Combine the resources from the failures with the successes, setting them up in your standard hive body and configuration.  Next, walk away entirely and leave them all bee.  Come back in 2 months to find either a well organized robust hive or a runt hive or a problem hive.  Promptly kill off the runts and any problem colonies. Promote only the self supporting strongest hives.  Do not nurse along dainty wimpy colonies. Make ready what is left for the coming winter.

First:  assess your numbers and your capabilities and how much time you are willing to commit to this. The hardest part is drawing that line and cutoff point. Resist the temptation.
Second: sort the queens as suggested
Third: makeup the nucs and carry on as would normally do with your queen rearing and hive building operations

Hope that is all readable and understandable.
Hope that helps!
Good luck with it, but most importantly have fun!
THP

« Last Edit: April 02, 2020, 03:11:58 pm by TheHoneyPump »
When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Offline JurassicApiary

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Re: Which Queen is mated? What to do with the others?
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2020, 01:45:17 pm »
While I haven't had this issue, or heard of multiple queens potentially flying with a secondary swarm, I have to say that the responses on this thread are packed with great insight for this newbee (and others, I'm sure).  Thanks to sawdstmakr, Van, cao, Acebird, and HP for chiming in and making this such an informative thread!  This is what Beemaster is all about and what I hoped it would be when I joined.  Good luck, Ben Framed.  Please keep us updated.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Which Queen is mated? What to do with the others?
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2020, 02:11:44 pm »
Thank you so very much Mr HP.  Your thoughts and clear explanations are prized information. Another one for coping and printing for my folder.  And yes this does help tremendously. Again thank you!

> JurassicApiary. Same here !

Phillip Hall
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Which Queen is mated? What to do with the others?
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2020, 10:21:42 am »
> Mated queens will draw a crowd of workers.  Virgin queens are typically ignored for the most part.
   I wouldn't wait too long on making up the mating nucs.  There is a limited time for the queens to be mated.

> Thanks Cao. I am thinking if the dominant, free roaming virgin is soon mated (and should be on a mating fight as early
   as today), she should be laying as soon a 5-7 days?  If by then I see no queen or eggs, it should be a pretty safe bet
   that the only queens in this new hive are the ones in the cages? If that is so, I can remove three of these and turn loose
   the forth one to dominate this hive? Is this pretty well on target? If so at that time I can add the left over queens to
   mating nucs? will this time frame be ok for the virgins? Thanks for your patience of my many questions.

   Phillip Hall

Update
As Mr Hp instructed I was going to make splits with the queens (virgins), because I am more interested in adding hives than honey at the present time of my beekeeping. However, when I did the test you suggested Cao, I found all the new queens were mated! The bees were on these queens like each was handing out candy. lol.  I even placed them outside the hives in a neutral place and near by worker bees were attracted to them. So, I took them inside, marked them, placed them in queen cages that I had saved from ordering queens in the past, adding adding their hitchhiking attendants, plugging each end with marshmallows as I had lost the corks for the cork end. Then added each to two frame nucs with one frame of capped brood and nurse bees, hoping they will build up fast and will plan to transfer to five frame nucs soon as possible.

I will add; the information that I have received here in my two years of beekeeping is outstanding! I have asked so many questions, gained so much information, that I can hardly retain it all in this short period of time. Thanks to all who have PATIENTLY answered my many, many questions this past two years.  Another good thing about beemaster is if we forget the answer to a question that we have already ask, all we have to do is go back and look. Thanks members, and thank you MR BEEMASTER.

Phillip Hall
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Which Queen is mated? What to do with the others?
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2020, 06:51:16 pm »
A couple questions and a few thoughts for your consideration:
I am short on time today so please overlook the short form or take any as being curt.  I hope you find the following supplementary to the other support and helpful.


Very good post HP.  Question:  if you call this post, your response short on time I ponder a detailed response form HP?

Makes sense, a mated queen receives more attention.  Good to know sorta info.  Thank you, HP.  I hope your snow melts soon and warm weather prevails in your area.

Van
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

 

anything