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Author Topic: Linoleum mat on brood frames  (Read 17454 times)

Offline Alpal

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Linoleum mat on brood frames
« on: September 03, 2014, 08:35:52 am »
Hi - Newbee here with my question that's bugging me for today. I purchased a going hive as well as a new empty hive and both have a piece of linoleum for placement over the brood frames. I'm wondering why? Isn't there a need for the bee space above the frames or is this something particular to Victoria, Australia.

I've yet to join a club so thought I may resolve my curiosity here. Thanks.

Alpal




Offline iddee

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Re: Linoleum mat on brood frames
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2014, 09:00:14 am »
Sounds like the seller was too cheap to buy an inner lid.
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Offline amun-ra

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Re: Linoleum mat on brood frames
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2014, 10:04:14 am »
Dont stress its what we do it stops the bees from building comb in the lid i have used them and it works. we do not use inner covers here

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Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Linoleum mat on brood frames
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2014, 12:39:29 pm »
Most of Europe does the same thing. If you do not use it you need a inner cover or, in my case, a screen top board so that you can get your tool under it to pry it open. Commercially here they just use migration tops, a piece of plywood, specially treated, as the lid. There are no sides on it that keep you from being able to get a hive tool under it to open it.
Jim
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Offline iddee

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Re: Linoleum mat on brood frames
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2014, 01:08:52 pm »
 :oops:   :oops:   :oops:

I guess all beekeeping really is local.
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Offline texanbelchers

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Re: Linoleum mat on brood frames
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2014, 02:29:21 pm »
"migration tops, a piece of plywood, specially treated"

How is it specially treated?  I haven't seen any mention of it and want to build it as well as possible.  CA-C Pressure Treated?  I wouldn't think that is good around bees.

Offline RayMarler

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Re: Linoleum mat on brood frames
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2014, 10:27:17 pm »
I build my own migratory type top/bottom boards. The same board works for either position. Works great since I keep hives up on stands, not on the ground. An 3/4" piece of A/C grade plywood, with 3/4 x 3/4 inch pieces glued and screwed on the two long edges and one short edge, and 2 coats of paint both sides. This board can be a bottom board entrance, or a top board entrance, or a top board no entrance. Works great for me. No inner cover, the bees glue it down so no wind blows it off. Slip hive tool under and pry to remove.

As an added bonus, you can stack a hive on top of another with this board very easily, the top board of one hive becomes the bottom board of the hive on top.

Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Linoleum mat on brood frames
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2014, 10:48:10 pm »
"migration tops, a piece of plywood, specially treated"

How is it specially treated?  I haven't seen any mention of it and want to build it as well as possible.  CA-C Pressure Treated?  I wouldn't think that is good around bees.
Tex,
I have seen the plywood but I cannot remember the name of it. It does not warp or rot, when left in the sun and rain, for years. I did several searches and I cannot find it. It looks like it is sealed and safe for hives. I thought Dadant sold it but I cannot find it in there catalog. The ones that I saw we 3/4".
Jim
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Offline mdax

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Re: Linoleum mat on brood frames
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2014, 12:00:27 am »
Isn't it HDO plywood?

Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Linoleum mat on brood frames
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2014, 12:15:14 am »
Mdax,
That looks like the correct description.
"According to APA-The Engineered Wood Association, HDO plywood's capacity to endure severe exposure to the elements and resist heat, abrasion, deterioration and moisture penetration make it suitable for a variety of applications"
Jim
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Offline bunyip

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Re: Linoleum mat on brood frames
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2014, 06:17:48 am »
Hi Alpal i got the linomat too it's keeps the bee's warmer in winter and stops the condensation tripping on the bees.

Offline Alpal

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Re: Linoleum mat on brood frames
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2014, 06:33:32 pm »
I build my own migratory type top/bottom boards. The same board works for either position. Works great since I keep hives up on stands, not on the ground. An 3/4" piece of A/C grade plywood, with 3/4 x 3/4 inch pieces glued and screwed on the two long edges and one short edge, and 2 coats of paint both sides. This board can be a bottom board entrance, or a top board entrance, or a top board no entrance. Works great for me. No inner cover, the bees glue it down so no wind blows it off.

Hi Raymarler, presumably this would leave the space at the top of your hive as being 1/4" + 3/4" from the top of the top frame to your lid. This is clearly larger than 'beespace' and I guess would explain the 'bees gluing it down'. If this was reduced to a 'beespace' would this stop this process?

Cheers

Alpal

Offline RayMarler

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Re: Linoleum mat on brood frames
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2014, 07:53:53 pm »
You get that large beespace if you use the board as a top entrance top board. I've never had a problem with them burcombing it to the topbars of the frames, they seem to enter and go down into the combs. If they were getting packed for space, I assume they would then build burcomb from the upper entrance lid to the topbars of the frames. What I was referring to  by saying they glued them down, is they use propolis to glue down the lid edges to the sides, front, and back of the hive. They do this no matter what position the top board is used it, it is a feature of using migratory boards. A hive tool is used to break the seal to remove the top cover.

With telescoping covers you need to use an inner cover because the telescoping cover does not allow you to put a hive tool at the seam to break the propolis seal. So an inner cover is used, it gets glued down around the edges, and it gets popped loose with the hive tool. The tele cover then does not get glued down to the inner cover as bees don't normally use the space above the inner cover. Telescoping covers have a tendency to get blown off in high winds whereas migratory covers do not.

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Linoleum mat on brood frames
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2014, 09:12:40 pm »
Anything that can be pulled loose from the propolis holding it to the top bars can be used for an inner cover.  Most of the world calls it a "quilt" because it used to be a quilt...
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Offline Anybrew2

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Re: Linoleum mat on brood frames
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2014, 05:14:39 am »
All good I use piece's of heavy duty plastic that comes in large rolls for concreting and cut it to size cheap and efficient the Bee Keeper Mantra.
You could use a piece of ply like our mates over the pond or be a cheap like me!!

Steve
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Offline Alpal

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Re: Linoleum mat on brood frames
« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2014, 07:52:45 am »
With telescoping covers you need to use an inner cover because the telescoping cover does not allow you to put a hive tool at the seam to break the propolis seal. So an inner cover is used, it gets glued down around the edges, and it gets popped loose with the hive tool. The tele cover then does not get glued down to the inner cover as bees don't normally use the space above the inner cover. Telescoping covers have a tendency to get blown off in high winds whereas migratory covers do not.

So much to learn. I aim to satisfy the KISS principle with my beekeeping. I've got the stupid down pat, just working on the simple. I am almost at the conclusion a mirror lid and bottom board would be simpler than all the other variations.

Accurate bee space also appears to be a thing of the past. The few hives that I have purchased vary considerably in their beespace measurements (ie from frame tops to the next brood box's frame bottoms etc). Sure, I'm a beginner, and i'm used to non industry standards for other items (who remembers Beta vs VHS?) but it's very frustrating when you're trying to learn.

So much for the negative. On the other side, I had a wonderful day at a bee beginners course today. Learnt a lot. (yes, and more questions still ...)

Cheers

Alpal

Offline iddee

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Re: Linoleum mat on brood frames
« Reply #16 on: September 06, 2014, 08:41:45 am »
Alpal, I started keeping bees about 1976. With this thread, I learned a few new things. Don't expect to learn it all in a short period of time. ""It ain't gonna happen""   :-D   :cheer: 
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Online Jim134

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Re: Linoleum mat on brood frames
« Reply #17 on: September 06, 2014, 08:56:48 am »
All good I use piece's of heavy duty plastic that comes in large rolls for concreting and cut it to size cheap and efficient the Bee Keeper Mantra.
You could use a piece of ply like our mates over the pond or be a cheap like me!!

Steve
CheapAussie

           I do know a lots of commercial beekeepers in the Lake Champaign area of Vermont USA uses grain bags for inner covers.

Michael Palmer of Vermont uses grain bags for inner covers You can see them

at 43:00 to about 45:00

    The first time I saw these being used in Vermont was about 1965 by Charles Mraz Sr. at that time they were burlap.(now they are woven nylon)


http://tinyurl.com/o663ctq
                  


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« Last Edit: September 06, 2014, 09:26:32 am by Jim 134 »
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Offline RayMarler

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Re: Linoleum mat on brood frames
« Reply #18 on: September 06, 2014, 10:08:22 am »
Beespace is very important in the hive. It can not be ignored or taken lightly. Different manufacturers of woodenware do the beespace differently, so that mix and matching equipment sometimes causes a lot of burrcomb and beekeeper distress because of it. I myself use 3/4" beespace on the bottom boards just because it's easier to build them that way for me. I don't have too much of  a problem. Sometimes over winter the bees will burrcomb the bottom bars to the bottom board and in the spring I have to cut them loose. I get by with it on the top entrance boards as the bees are not crowded so they go down the combs into the broodnest to drop off the nectar and pollen where it's needed first before moving up for storage cells. I've never kept an open entrance like that above the honey storage level, only on smaller hives and so at the top of the broodnest level, and I've never done the upper entrance board like that over winter. I just don't want you to think that proper beespace is not important, because it is and violating it can cause problems. The proper beespace is 5/16 to 3/8 inch. I think 5/16 is a bit better than 3/8 myself but industry has stuck with 3/8.

Offline Simon

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Re: Linoleum mat on brood frames
« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2014, 01:01:30 am »
I have seen a few different things used to cover the frames under a migratory lid. Lino, hessian (probably off the walls of a very old house) and vinyl floor covering.  The bees will use the space between the lid and the "quilt" to build some burr comb, especially if they need a bit more room and you are slow to give them some.  Go to your local floor covering shop and ask them for their old vinyl floor covering sample books that they about to throw out.  Generally you can get them for free  :yippiechick:  Then you will have a heap of mats/quilts that only need a bit of trimming to size.

Simon

Offline Alpal

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Re: Linoleum mat on brood frames
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2014, 02:16:26 am »
Beespace is very important in the hive.  The proper beespace is 5/16 to 3/8 inch. I think 5/16 is a bit better than 3/8 myself but industry has stuck with 3/8.

So, to understand this right - beespace of 5/16ths (or 3/8ths) is the space that should be between the frame's bottom and the base of your hive (whatever it is), between the frames side and the side wall of your box, between the top of the frame and the bottom of the frame above, between the top of your frames and the lid (whatever one) etc etc. Is this correct?

I know there are practicalities of construction etc to come, but as a generality?

Cheers

Alpal

Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Linoleum mat on brood frames
« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2014, 05:18:42 am »
Beespace is very important in the hive.  The proper beespace is 5/16 to 3/8 inch. I think 5/16 is a bit better than 3/8 myself but industry has stuck with 3/8.

So, to understand this right - beespace of 5/16ths (or 3/8ths) is the space that should be between the frame's bottom and the base of your hive (whatever it is), between the frames side and the side wall of your box, between the top of the frame and the bottom of the frame above, between the top of your frames and the lid (whatever one) etc etc. Is this correct?

I know there are practicalities of construction etc to come, but as a generality?

Cheers

Alpal

Alpal,
That is correct with the exception of the bottom area of the hive under the bottom frames. They tend to tolerate a little more space there.
If you have an area greater than bee space, they fill it with wax, if they have less, they fill it with propolis. Usually, my observation hive, that I put empty frames in, has lots of space, 2 full frames with nothing. It also has open space in the bottom where built some wonky comb but never filled in the area around it.
Different bees do different things.
Jim
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Offline RayMarler

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Re: Linoleum mat on brood frames
« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2014, 05:46:31 am »
Thanks Jim, yes I agree, and also is not as important at the top, is why we get away with spacers under the lid in winter for doing a mountain camp feeding or other feedings. It also depends on hive strength and time of year. But for the most part, yes, beespace should be 5/16 - 3/8 inch everywhere throughout the hive. Even at the top and bottom, if the space is too great, they will eventually fill it with comb.

Online Jim134

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Re: Linoleum mat on brood frames
« Reply #23 on: September 08, 2014, 12:07:41 pm »
So, to understand this right - beespace of 5/16ths (or 3/8ths) is the space that should be between the frame's bottom and the base of your hive (whatever it is), between the frames side and the side wall of your box, between the top of the frame and the bottom of the frame above, between the top of your frames and the lid (whatever one) etc etc. Is this correct?

I know there are practicalities of construction etc to come, but as a generality?

Cheers

Alpal

Alpal.......

    Bee space is a range between 5/16" to 3/8" small than 5/16"  propolis most of the time
larger than 3/8" burr comb most the time.    


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Online Jim134

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Re: Linoleum mat on brood frames
« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2014, 12:06:19 am »
   This may help you out a lot

 http://dave-cushman.net/bee/bsp.html



        BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)           
"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
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 John F. Kennedy
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Offline Alpal

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Re: Linoleum mat on brood frames
« Reply #25 on: September 09, 2014, 10:41:29 am »
Thanks all for your help. This forum is brilliant for someone like be just setting out.

Regards

Alpal

Offline Intheswamp

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Re: Linoleum mat on brood frames
« Reply #26 on: September 09, 2014, 10:43:56 am »
"migration tops, a piece of plywood, specially treated"

How is it specially treated?  I haven't seen any mention of it and want to build it as well as possible.  CA-C Pressure Treated?  I wouldn't think that is good around bees.
Tex,
I have seen the plywood but I cannot remember the name of it. It does not warp or rot, when left in the sun and rain, for years. I did several searches and I cannot find it. It looks like it is sealed and safe for hives. I thought Dadant sold it but I cannot find it in there catalog. The ones that I saw we 3/4".
Jim

Jim, AdvanTech is what you might be thinking about...our "local" (30 miles away) Lowe's carries it.  Durable and heavy stuff.  AdvanTech vs OSB - Water Resistance Comparison

Ed
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Online Jim134

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Re: Linoleum mat on brood frames
« Reply #27 on: September 09, 2014, 03:52:39 pm »
         A small commercial beekeeper I know in southern Vermont uses plywood from concrete forms wears like iron some of his equipment is over 15 years old and still looks great no painting involved thank you dear Lord.



                    BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

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 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/

Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Linoleum mat on brood frames
« Reply #28 on: September 10, 2014, 01:21:39 pm »
"migration tops, a piece of plywood, specially treated"

How is it specially treated?  I haven't seen any mention of it and want to build it as well as possible.  CA-C Pressure Treated?  I wouldn't think that is good around bees.
Tex,
I have seen the plywood but I cannot remember the name of it. It does not warp or rot, when left in the sun and rain, for years. I did several searches and I cannot find it. It looks like it is sealed and safe for hives. I thought Dadant sold it but I cannot find it in there catalog. The ones that I saw we 3/4".
Jim

Jim, AdvanTech is what you might be thinking about...our "local" (30 miles away) Lowe's carries it.  Durable and heavy stuff.  AdvanTech vs OSB - Water Resistance Comparison

Ed

Ed,
This might be it although I do not remember it looking like OSB. But then again I did not get a good look at it. It looked very smooth like a highly compressed plywood.
Jim
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Ben Franklin

Offline Richard M

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Re: Linoleum mat on brood frames
« Reply #29 on: December 12, 2014, 07:12:04 pm »
"migration tops, a piece of plywood, specially treated"

How is it specially treated?  I haven't seen any mention of it and want to build it as well as possible.  CA-C Pressure Treated?  I wouldn't think that is good around bees.
Tex,
I have seen the plywood but I cannot remember the name of it. It does not warp or rot, when left in the sun and rain, for years. I did several searches and I cannot find it. It looks like it is sealed and safe for hives. I thought Dadant sold it but I cannot find it in there catalog. The ones that I saw we 3/4".
Jim


They sell it here as "marine ply", as you build boats out of it; you can buy it quite cheaply as they use it for bracing in house framing. Go to Bunnings or K&D. The thin stuff (from memory) will be less than $10 a sheet of 1200mm x 600mm.

The veneer is hardwood so it will last forever out in the weather, the only difference from normal "interior" ply is that the glue is waterproof; there's no preservative, it doesn't need it, although a coat of decking oil is a good idea as this prevents silvering & weathering (which isn't the same as rotting).

Probably the same stuff that Jim134 is talking about.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2014, 09:39:40 pm by Richard M »

Offline Wombat2

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Re: Linoleum mat on brood frames
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2015, 12:02:26 am »
I use a piece of vinyl - covering to the second frame in from each side and same distance from each end on the broad box - above the queen excluder - to keep the heat in in winter (from April on here) and in top box under the lid to stop burr comb being built.
David L

Offline Richard M

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Re: Linoleum mat on brood frames
« Reply #31 on: January 13, 2015, 03:19:43 am »
I use a piece of vinyl - covering to the second frame in from each side and same distance from each end on the broad box - above the queen excluder - to keep the heat in in winter (from April on here) and in top box under the lid to stop burr comb being built.

Winter? Sunshine Coast?

Your bees must be bloody soft.  :cheesy:

OK, silliness over - Tas is generally reckoned the coldest State in Aus (although winter in Hobart is far more comfortable than it is in Melbourne) but even so our Winters are still pretty warm compared with Europe/North America; our mean minimum in July is 4.6 degrees C, mean max temp is 11.7C, so hardly what you'd called cold really. We get maybe half a dozen light frosts each year down here close to sea level.

We had masonite inner covers initially but found they became soggy and mouldy, so we ditched them and went without, leaving a clear space from the tops of the frames to the migratory lid.

We had no problems with chilled brood through the winter, nor any difficulties with them building burr comb infill from the lid down to the frames, so in our climate, I'd question the need for the inner cover. Obviously a different story in North America/Europe and in freezing cold holes like Ballarat, Canberra, inland NSW/Qld, inland Tas etc - horses for courses I guess but until we see a reason, I don't think we'll be bothering fitting the inner covers for the time being.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2015, 05:15:15 am by Richard M »

Offline max2

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Re: Linoleum mat on brood frames
« Reply #32 on: January 18, 2015, 01:14:36 am »
lino was very much accepted for many years. PLY or any other thin wood veneer  will work

Offline Richard M

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Re: Linoleum mat on brood frames
« Reply #33 on: January 18, 2015, 07:55:29 am »
I've heard that carpet - hessian, not rubber backed, is useful too. Insulating but permeable to condensation.

 

anything