Author Topic: Foundationless frames with wires (Read 4953 times)

Lesgold · « **on:** January 07, 2022, 07:24:11 pm »

Hi Folks,

After the discussion a little bit earlier in relation to foundationless frames, I wondered has anyone tried using frames with the wire in place. I can see obvious advantages if the bees will draw comb around the wire. I know bees don?t like wire but what if the situation was changed slightly? About 6 years ago I purchased a large roll of really fine stainless wire that I have been using since that time. It is only half to 2/3rds the thickness of standard framing wire. It does also have disadvantages but the bees don?t seem to mind it as much as the thicker wire. I never have issues in relation to the queen laying on top of the wire. I?m not sure if that is due to the wire thickness or how the wire is embedded into the foundation. Would be interested in your thoughts as I have a couple of ideas that I would like to experiment with.

Cheers

Les

Bob Wilson · « **Reply #1 on:** January 07, 2022, 08:59:36 pm »

I know this is a side issue, but how many of you beeks have had comb collapse without a support such as wire?
I've had 3 summers so far with foundationless sans-support and no collapse yet, but I can imagine the mess if it ever does.

Jim134 · « **Reply #2 on:** January 07, 2022, 10:13:18 pm »

Quote from: Lesgold on January 07, 2022, 07:24:11 pm

Hi Folks,

After the discussion a little bit earlier in relation to foundationless frames, I wondered has anyone tried using frames with the wire in place. I can see obvious advantages if the bees will draw comb around the wire. I know bees don?t like wire but what if the situation was changed slightly? About 6 years ago I purchased a large roll of really fine stainless wire that I have been using since that time. It is only half to 2/3rds the thickness of standard framing wire. It does also have disadvantages but the bees don?t seem to mind it as much as the thicker wire. I never have issues in relation to the queen laying on top of the wire. I?m not sure if that is due to the wire thickness or how the wire is embedded into the foundation. Would be interested in your thoughts as I have a couple of ideas that I would like to experiment with.

Cheers

Les

All the local beekeepers in my area..
Who keep native bees Apis cerana... Have been using wooden frames with wires.. For at least 75 years.. The frame wire is bee standard. For wiring wooden frames. It comes from Dadant in the USA.. I don't believe it's possible to get foundation... For Apis cerana.. I do suggest... You do more reading on foundationless.. Like I heard years ago.... All answers local.. It does get hot in the Philippines.. Sometimes over a 100 Fahrenheit .. For a few weeks in a row. Of course this depends on where you at.. As compared to sea level.. Have a great day..

BEE HAPPY Jim 134

TheHoneyPump · « **Reply #3 on:** January 07, 2022, 10:53:28 pm »

If the hive never moves, it doesnt matter.
If harvest by crush/strain, it doesnt matter.
For brood comb, doesnt really matter as it gets stronger with each brood cycle.
For hives that get moved around and/or combs that are handled and spin harvested, honey combs, the support is an absolute must. And depending on your operation wires are not enough.

Bob Wilson · « **Reply #4 on:** January 07, 2022, 11:14:04 pm »

That makes sense, HP.
That describes my hives.
What about the wire? Does thinner wire make a difference or detriment?

Lesgold · « **Reply #5 on:** January 07, 2022, 11:46:10 pm »

Hi Jim,

Thanks for you comments. Sounds like you get a bit warm there over the summer. Yep, there will be plenty of research and experimenting to follow.

As per usual HP your comments are logical. To back up Bobs question, will the bees draw comb over the wire? I have never tried (but will now as I want to find out for myself and see what issues arise) I took a photo of the wire that I?m using and compared it to the only other frame wire that I had in stock (it is also a thin gauge)

Most of the wire that I?ve used in the past was a much heavier gauge than either of these two. I am guessing that it is about .2 to .25mm in diameter. The spool has no markings and I don?t have a set of verniers to check it. Just to put it into perspective, my crimper can not be used on this wire. You also mentioned that wires may not be enough if you spin out the honey. Could you expand on that please. I know that the new wax will be very soft and the initial extraction would have to be very slow (especially with a tangential extractor) but are there other considerations as well?

Ben Framed · « **Reply #6 on:** January 08, 2022, 12:05:03 am »

Quote

I know this is a side issue, but how many of you beeks have had comb collapse without a support such as wire?
I've had 3 summers so far with foundationless sans-support and no collapse yet, but I can imagine the mess if it ever does.

Quote

If the hive never moves, it doesnt matter.
If harvest by crush/strain, it doesnt matter

Maybe in some locations it doesn't matter. But I have found in my location it can and has mattered. With a 'deep super' filled with brand new beautiful comb and no support along with the temperatures that my area affords at times, I had to learn the hard way. It is a sad thing to see brand new beautiful comb filled with nectar and honey collapsed on very hot days. Pulled lose from the top bar. I have experienced this and it's a sad experience... The reinforcement can make the difference in such circumstances.

Phillip

Ben Framed · « **Reply #7 on:** January 08, 2022, 12:07:16 am »

Robo uses wire in his foundation-less frames . He has posted of this along with pictures. He shows how he wires them himself..-

The15thMember · « **Reply #8 on:** January 08, 2022, 12:09:17 am »

I have all mediums and my summer temps in the mountains are rarely extreme, but I've been totally foundationless from the beginning, no wires, no nothing, and I've never regretted it. I did come dangerously close to having a big chunk of newly drawn and filled soft honeycomb come off under its own weight when I tilted a frame on a hot day, but I thankfully noticed in time to carefully straighten it out and replace the frame without mishap.

LawyerRick · « **Reply #9 on:** January 08, 2022, 12:30:28 am »

I have tried every type of foundation including wire. Actually, I like to wire the frames & let the bees draw it out. I find it relaxing. I have also used 2 perpendicular bamboo dividers on some frames & the bees then draw out 3 sections, with 1 section nearly always being drone comb. If you practice IPM including some drone culling, cutting out 1/3 of a frame of drone brood & putting the frame back can help in keping mite numbers down.

Ben Framed · « **Reply #10 on:** January 08, 2022, 12:33:45 am »

Rick I have not used wires but intend too. When I first started using support, I used fishing line for support in the beginning. I learned this from David at Barnyard Bees. I used both the X pattern and the two across horizontal pattern. These worked good, BUT; too be more assured bees 'will' draw the wax through the line, completed drawn out frames need to be placed on each side, to be used as a guide so the bees will not be detoured and help avoid drawing around the line, but through the line. This 'closes' the foundation less frames 'in' so to speak. This goes for skewers also in my experience. I like skewers as proposed by Paus better than fishing line, (Two spaced out vertically on a frame as you described). Though fishing line works fine, skewers are much stronger support than fishing line in my opinion.

Phillip

Lesgold · « **Reply #11 on:** January 08, 2022, 12:50:14 am »

Time to give it a go. Grabbed an empty frame that came out of the steam box a couple of months ago and decided to try my method of attaching a starter strip on all sides. Cut a strip of timber to fill the top bar grove and stapled it in place.

Used glad wrap and a timber block to act as my guide and applied wax on all internal edges of the frame.

Hopefully this will be an extra guide for the bees to attach wax to the end and bottom bars. Placed it into a honey super of a hive (just a bit easier to check than burrowing down into the brood boxes). Will give regular reports over the next few weeks to show progress.

Cheers

Les

Jim134 · « **Reply #12 on:** January 08, 2022, 12:52:27 am »

Wiring frames.. The original idea was to help... Combs from not sragging... In hot weather... Once the Combs sag in the brood nest... It is no longer good for Worker brood.

BEE HAPPY Jim134

Ben Framed · « **Reply #13 on:** January 08, 2022, 12:58:14 am »

Quote from: Jim 134 on January 08, 2022, 12:52:27 am

Wiring frames.. The original idea was to help... Combs from not sragging... In hot weather... Once the Combs sag in the brood nest... It is no longer good for Worker brood.

BEE HAPPY Jim134

Agree, sagging is one thing and bad enough, detachment and failure is the pits also in hot weather locations lol. Good discussion here with different points of view.

Thanks Jim.

Phillip

Lesgold · « **Reply #14 on:** January 08, 2022, 01:15:48 am »

Sorry, I should have articulated my thoughts a bit clearer than I did. My thinking was foundationless frames throughout the hive with new frames added in the brood box in the spring and then finally into the supers as needed. I really want to know why wired frames are not in the discussion mix when it comes to foundationless beekeeping. Just put it down to my general ignorance of the topic. Most of my beekeeping is done in isolation and this topic (apart from comb honey) is new to me.

Ben Framed · « **Reply #15 on:** January 08, 2022, 01:48:17 am »

Well, I might have been a little offtrack myself. I assumed when you mentioned wire support, you were meaning 'support' in general. No harm done as we all mean well and have good intentions. Our discussion so far, may have helped someone....

Lesgold · « **Reply #16 on:** January 08, 2022, 03:24:14 am »

Hi Phillip. Yes, that is what I meant. I want to prevent sagging or breaking of comb. I would also like to be able to put foundationless frames through a honey extractor (not sure if it is possible- any thoughts?) if it is possible, that would be great. If not, there is no major issue either. It?s all in the quest for knowledge.

Oldbeavo · « **Reply #17 on:** January 08, 2022, 05:07:33 am »

We use a full depth frame for comb honey. It simply has a thin piece of wood half way across.
We cut the comb honey out and put the frame back. If it is not suitable for comb honey then we put it through the uncapper and extract it.
84 frame radial that spins fast and no blow outs.
A lot simpler than wiring frames.
If new frame just paint the inside surfaces with melted wax.

Ben Framed · « **Reply #18 on:** January 08, 2022, 09:58:25 am »

OldBeavo I do not recall seeing this idea. Looks simple yet effective.

The15thMember · « **Reply #19 on:** January 08, 2022, 11:47:20 am »

Quote from: Lesgold on January 08, 2022, 03:24:14 am

Hi Phillip. Yes, that is what I meant. I want to prevent sagging or breaking of comb. I would also like to be able to put foundationless frames through a honey extractor (not sure if it is possible- any thoughts?) if it is possible, that would be great. If not, there is no major issue either. It?s all in the quest for knowledge.

I don't have an extractor so I'm only going on hearsay, but I think something that's important when extracting with foundationless frames is trying to get the bees to connect the wax to all sides of the frame and all the way to the bottom.