Bluebees bottom board

[Lesgold]

Hi Folks,

About 5 years ago I purchased a special bottom board insert to try. I read a bit about its qualities and it seemed to get good reviews, so I weakened and bought one. It is very similar to the tubular bottom board design that many of you would have seen but this one is a single piece of moulded food grade plastic.



As you can see, the convex curves drop away into 3mm slots which bees can?t get through. The underside shows how sharply the slots finish.



The claimed made by the manufacturer included better ventilation, cleaner bottom boards, lower hive beetle  numbers, reduced condensation and better honey yields. That was enough of a sales pitch for me to try one.  I built a bottom board and put it to use. Unfortunately, a sample of one was never going to give accurate, consistent results but I will report on what I have found over the five years that it has been in use. 1) Every year since the hive was established, honey yields have been consistently high compared all of the hives in the yard. 2) Spring buildup has always been very good and this hive always ends up with excellent bee numbers. 3) No beetle traps have ever been used on this hive. Beetles have always been present but not in big numbers. 4) Condensation has never been an issue in this hive. 5) Although bee numbers are large, bearding does not occur to the same extent as it does in hives with solid bottom boards. 6) Bees over winter well in my area with this bottom board in place. 7) No debris has ever built up on the bottom board. It is always spotless at the beginning of spring.

As you can see, I am quite happy with the way the hive is performing. A couple of years ago I made two more of these bottom boards and the results have been similar to what I experienced with the initial hive. The results are only anecdotal, with no specific data being collected. They are quite expensive to purchase (from memory each one was over $20) and the outside dimensions are a bit smaller than the size of the brood boxes. This means a bit more work than a standard board. I have just started constructing 3 more of these boards. I?ll post a pic. when they are finished.

Cheers

Les

[Ben Framed]

Lesgold

Condensation has never been an issue in this hive.

Les what are average temperatures during your winter and summer seasons?

Phillip

[paus]

This sounds like it does the same job the DSBB does, that some of us use with the same results.  With the oil pan you can see and count the results of SHB getting in the oil.

[The15thMember]

Hey Phillip, is this the kind of bottom board you were thinking of a while ago when we were talking about slatted racks? 

[Ben Framed]

No, the ones I was talking about was made of wood. I think they were similar to the ones you described. I had remembered reading some points and functins made by Brian D Bray about the racks. They will probably however,  serve the same function, working in a similar mannor? 
I think Paus is right about the function of the screen bottom boards he mentioned in reply 2. Except his description will 'eliminate' hive beetles instead of just letting escape through the bottom. However the bottoms pictured by Les should do the same thing, serve the same function, if an oil pan is placed beneath? Thus allowing any SHB or SHB larva to fall easily through the slots. I am thinking all three designs will be effective.

Back to Paus and Beemaster2s' design mentioned by Paus, I do not know if SHB larva will fit through the number 8 hardware cloth? With the oil pans beneath, to trap and destroy SHB themselves, I have not seen 'any' SHB larva in a hive which has the set up as mentioned by Paus. It seems SHB do not have the opportunity to progress that far, (to the larva stage).

Y'alls thoughts?


Phillip

[Ben Framed]

PS I can see future potential in the design pictured here by Les....

[The15thMember]

Back to Paus and Beemaster2s' design mentioned by Paus, I do not know if SHB larva will fit through the number 8 hardware cloth?

I think they certainly could.  The ones I've seen could anyway.  I don't believe they get as big as the waxworms before pupating. 

[Ben Framed]

Back to Paus and Beemaster2s' design mentioned by Paus, I do not know if SHB larva will fit through the number 8 hardware cloth?

I think they certainly could.  The ones I've seen could anyway.  I don't believe they get as big as the waxworms before pupating.

You are right. The wax worms are much larger than the SHB larva.

[Ben Framed]

Reagan, Paus, Les,  I really like the design introduced us to. Allow me to share some thoughts:

In my case, I have 3/4 rest on my bottom boards allowing a 3/4 inch opening across the entire bottom for the bees to come and go.
What if:
What if the Les bottoms were made to snap on a pan just the right size, similar to the operation of a Tupperware bowl and top? And what if we build our bottoms, compensating the area difference of the pan/Les bottoms adding this depth to the bottom boards rest. We could simply fill the oil pan trays to the proper depth, snap the Les bottoms on the pans, and easily slide this set up into the modified bottom board, allowing a easy access, perfect fit, which will still leave a 3/4 full opening for the bees to come and go. This would or should totally element any SHB problems? While elimination the need for screens since bees can not fit through the slots.. Making it much easier and faster to arrange a SHB oil kill trap.
Now what I am proposing will not give the extra ventilation as its original designed purpose, but will serve a higher purpose in my opinion.

Phillip

[paus]

If I knew how I can show pictures of hundreds of SHB larva in the oil from a hive I put over a DSBB with oil.  When I got this hive, it was too far gone but hundreds of SHB and larva never made it to another hive.  None of the hives next to this box ever got an infestation.

[Lesgold]

Hi Folks,

To answer your question Phillip, I live in a temperate climate. Over night winter temperatures normally get down to 2 or 3 degrees C with the occasional temp as low as 0. Daytime temps are normally between 12 and 15 degrees. Summer temperatures are normally around 25 to 35 degrees with occasional hotter bursts hitting up to 40.
In relation to the small hive beetle and the wax moth, the smooth surface and funnel shape allows the bees to chase pests through the slots. The same thing happens with debris. Constant movement over the bottom board causes all hive debris to fall through the slots. Every year when I do my first major spring inspection, it still surprises me as to how clean the bottom boards are. I have never had to scrape or even brush one.

In relation to hive beetle traps, it would be a simple task to design a bottom board with an oil or diatomaceous earth tray to slide underneath. I have never worried about this as the hive seams to keep the numbers of beetle under control quite easily. If your hive was weak, this would be a different story.

Cheers

Les

[Ben Framed]

If I knew how I can show pictures of hundreds of SHB larva in the oil from a hive I put over a DSBB with oil.  When I got this hive, it was too far gone but hundreds of SHB and larva never made it to another hive.  None of the hives next to this box ever got an infestation.

Yes It was You and Jim (Beemaster2) who saved me from SHB with your description of your designs of these set ups my first season.. I am grateful to you both for that. This that Les has shown may be another way to accomplish basically the same thing but much easier to get there? A person could actually have these mass produced if he had the right connections? One thing is for sure your design WORKS! Thank you Paus.

Phillip

[Lesgold]

Sorry Paus,

We must have posted at the same time. You made a valid point. Seeing dead beetles is
a real pleasure. (Especially when you see what damage they can do)

[Ben Framed]

Les your summer temperatures are similar to mine.  My winter temperatures are occasionally colder but varied. For instance last night my temperature was -7c / 19F with a high of 0c  32F today, but this is rare and usually will occur from Jan to the end of Feb.  Tomorrow it is to reach a high of 11 Celsius 52 F.  I suppose my area is a tipping point temperature wise...

Phillip

[Lesgold]

I?m not sure if I should be posting a website here so I won?t. If you Google bluebees bottom boards, you will find info about it. As I said in my first post, the only issue I have with this board is the overall dimensions. From memory, the 10 frame insert is 500 x 400mm (which is about 8mm shorter and 6mm narrower than our brood box. This basically means a bit of extra work for me to make the bottom board ?perfect?.

[Ben Framed]

Sorry Paus,

We must have posted at the same time. You made a valid point. Seeing dead beetles is
a real pleasure. (Especially when you see what damage they can do)

Les Paus comes up with some good stuff! He is also the person who introduced me to the use of kabob skewers for the use in foundation-less frames! Good stuff indeed!

Phillip

[Lesgold]

I?m intrigued by the bottom boards and traps you guys are talking about. Would love to find out more. Going foundationless in the brood box could have some major time and cost savings as well as the advantages of helping prevent swarming issues in the spring. I must admit it is something that I had not considered in the past. You guys have really got me thinking. I am glad I joined this forum.

[Ben Framed]

If I knew how I can show pictures of hundreds of SHB larva in the oil from a hive I put over a DSBB with oil.  When I got this hive, it was too far gone but hundreds of SHB and larva never made it to another hive.  None of the hives next to this box ever got an infestation.

I am convinced that your set up will not only kill beetles in the hive where it is placed, but attracts beetles from the surrounding area. We have talked of this before. I am repeating it for the benefit of Les and any newer members who might have missed our discussions of this before.
And not only beetles but as you reaffirmed, larva as well fitting through the number 8 Hardware cloth, that might already have been in the hive when the traps were placed there, thought too late. Thanks for the reminder Paus. 

Phillip

[Ben Framed]

Lesgold

You guys have really got me thinking. I am glad I joined this forum.

Les that cuts two ways, we are glad that you joined us. New posting members, such as yourself and Nigel for example, (and others), along with our older members on this topic for example, are a pleasure to discuss things with.

Phillip

[Lesgold]

Thanks Phillip. When you do post, often other ideas turn up as well. The DSBB idea is something I want to look at. Are there any plans around for that? It obviously works very well. I think it?s good to have options to see what works well in your own situation. I run 5 different styles of bottom boards that I?ve made or purchased over the years. It?s good to be able to evaluate each one and see how they perform on a comparative basis.

[Ben Framed]

Les it has been a while since Paus and Beemaster 2 introduced this concept to me/we/us here at Beemaster. I can not remember if they posted plans, or pictures, or just simply described how it was done. I might have a little different set up as they, as I only use one screen. Mine is not double screen as I stuck to using a solid bottom.

                                                                Heres What I Did

I started out with a flat bottom blank, of proper size just as I would in building a regular bottom board. Then made oil pans the width and length of a hive which would fix on the bottom within the bounds of box rest. I made the height of these pans about 1 1/2 to 2 inches tall. I winged it by laying the pan on the bottom, measured what the height of the box rest should be in order to accommodate the pans. I attached the new 'sides' the proper height to house the pans. Added a trap door which is located at the rear for removing and cleaning the oil pan from time to time. The front I made solid as I did the sides. I attached number 8 Hardware Cloth on top of this making it bee proof but not beetle proof. This looked like a box with a open screen for a top.
The Number 8 is just large enough to allow beetles to enter (to their death) lol.

Next I added 3/4'' box rest to the top of this, just as I would in making a regular bottom board. I also added a narrow landing board on the top front of this. So, as far as the bees are concerned nothing new except the oil trap beneath the screen. So its business as usual for the bees.

With this you will not have need of beetle traps anymore in your hive. This will do them in.
Just as Jim and Pause taught me, the more beetles that are exterminated in the oil pan, the more the rest seem to be attracted until one day you will not notice hardly any beetles in your hive. They are done in. most folks use regular vegetable oil but I add a good coat of mothers vinegar before adding oil. The oil floats on top of the vinegar seems to help retard mold form forming.

The drawback is you must be careful not to spill the oil when inspecting a hive. We do not want any of this oil in our brood boxes. So far I have not had a problem. Also the hive must be level for obvious reasons.

Maybe Paus or Jim has actual plans, I just cannot remember...

Phillip

[Lesgold]

Thanks for that Phillip. That?s the same system that a lot of people are using down under. My biggest issue is    obtaining the mesh we need to do the job ( what you call hardware cloth). It?s quite scarce in my area. I was talking to a beekeeper just before Christmas who was working on a new, modified style of bottom board with a oil trap. He and a few other beekeepers were getting very good results with this system. This group were also working on finding the best oil for the job. From memory, they were heading towards paraffin oil as it doesn?t go rancid like the veggie oils do over time. I now wish that I got more details as his quoted beetle knock down results were quite impressive. I finished the bottom boards yesterday. Will just take a photo and post it. As I said in the beginning, I don?t worry about beetle traps for this type of bottom board as the bees seem to keep beetle numbers under control quite easily. Where beetle infestations are out of control, the oil trap would be a good addition. I have basically stopped using beetle traps now and tend to rely on strong hive development as a control measure. If I have a hive that is weak or is given too much space, the beetles can dominate unless I take action quickly.


Cheers

Les

[Lesgold]

The finished boards. It would be a simple task to re design the board to take an oil tray for better control of SHB. Just need to give the paint a chance to dry and will pop them onto hives in a couple of weeks. These bottom boards will replace some of my solid bottom boards. It?s time to slowly phase them out.

Cheers

Les

[Ben Framed]

Your welcome Les,

I was fortunate to find a roll of number 8 at an old time type hardware store. It was old stock. No telling how long it had been sitting on the shelves...

One very important think to keep in mind about SHB is once they get a foot hold and go to the larva stage, the problem is compounded by thousands. They work their way out of the hive and burrow in the ground to reemerge in unfathomed numbers and it seems this can happen very rapidly.

I like the Bluebird bottom you have shown. I can see (in theory) where it could be used in the place of the screened hardware cloth.

Phillip

[Ben Framed]

Lesgold

The finished boards. It would be a simple task to re design the board to take an oil tray for better control of SHB

Les you posted as I was posting! I like it, it looks good!

Your set up looks basicly like my screen set up with the exception of the oil pans added.

[Lesgold]

I thought it would be similar. Yes, the SHB once established and flourishing, can be a pain in the butt. An interesting observation that I have made is the type of ground seems to impact on the beetle population. I have about 20 hives at home on hard, shale type ground that struggles to grow anything of value. Beetle numbers in this area are lower than some other hives that are located on sand. It appears as though the beetles breed better in the softer soil. I have to be a little more careful in the second area. I had large beetle numbers in the early spring but at the moment, numbers are quite low. I would have thought with high temperatures, humidity and rainfall there would have been an explosion in numbers. It just hasn?t happened.(as yet) I have 8 worm farms in old bath tubs. The beetles used to infest them badly when I fed the worms shredded veggie scraps. These days the worms are on a diet of coffee grounds and horse manure and the problem has almost disappeared. Obviously SHB don?t drink coffee.

[The15thMember]

An interesting observation that I have made is the type of ground seems to impact on the beetle population. I have about 20 hives at home on hard, shale type ground that struggles to grow anything of value. Beetle numbers in this area are lower than some other hives that are located on sand. It appears as though the beetles breed better in the softer soil.

Your observation is absolutely correct, although it's the pupating, not the breeding, that is better in the softer soil.  From "The Beekeeper's Handbook" by Sammataro and Avitabile: "[Hive beetles] complete their larval stage in 10 to 16 days and then drop to the bottom board, where they crawl outside in order to pupate in the soil up to 100 ft (30 m) from the hive entrance, preferring light sandy soils."       

[Lesgold]

Good information there. Thank you for that. A large concrete slab 100? in diameter under each hive will be the obvious solution. Lol.

[Ben Framed]

lol.   Unfortunately, maybe not? Dr Jammie Ellison reported during his research at the University of Florida, some larva escaped from his lab in the middle of the night and the next morning on his way in, he found some crawling down the front steps, all concrete. These creatures are hardy. 

[Lesgold]

I?ve just come inside after robbing and extracting 4 boxes of honey. Saw 4 beetles in total. I wonder where they have gone? Have you guys in the north pinched them all? Don?t know what?s going on. There was heaps during the spring and early summer. I?m not complaining about it. I?m sure they will be back soon.

[The15thMember]

Good information there. Thank you for that. A large concrete slab 100? in diameter under each hive will be the obvious solution. Lol.

lol.   Unfortunately, maybe not? Dr Jammie Ellison reported during his research at the University of Florida, some larva escaped from his lab in the middle of the night and the next morning on his way in, he found some crawling down the front steps, all concrete. These creatures are hardy. 

Eww!    Unfortunately Phillip, I believe you are right.  100 ft. seems a conservative estimate according to this article from Rusty Burlew, published in the American Bee Journal: "The larvae gather together near the hive entrance and wait for the witching hour. Just after dusk, under the cover of darkness, the larvae wriggle from the hive and drop to the ground. This group exit from the colony has been described as a 'mass exodus' or a 'larval regiment.' As soon as they hit terra firma, these wandering larvae begin to look for a place to burrow into the soil. Most find a spot within three feet (90 cm) of the hive entrance.  But worry not. Wandering larvae are resilient and strong. If soil conditions under the hive are not perfect, the larvae will take off in search of something better. Such vagabonds have been known to travel 220 yards (200 m) in search of better soil. Their primary concern is soil moisture, especially summer moisture. Relentless in their pursuit of ideal conditions, larvae have been known to wander for up to 48 days and still manage to pupate successfully."  *shudder*

[Lesgold]

They are lovely little creatures aren?t they. I can still remember the day I caught my first swarm and popped them into a hive. Was crouching down watching my new bees come and go and noticed two little black blobs land on the hive entrance and march right in as if they owned the place. I only had the hive for two hours and the nonsense had already started.

[BeeMaster2]

During my first year of beekeeping, I built a screen top board and put it on my hive right at sundown. Within seconds a SHB landed on the screen and I killed it. Over the next 30 minutes I must have killed close to 100 SHBs. It was nonstop beetles landing on top of that screen. While I lived in Jacksonville, I used to open the tops of my hive every day and kill SHBs that were on top of the screens. Most hives had ten or more. I had to bee quick to get them all.
Jim Altmiller

[Lesgold]

I remember as a young bloke playing space invaders on a machine in a local cafe. You had to have good reflexes and a keen eye. Those skills have come in handy over the years. Unfortunately, I have never been able to get the perfect score when it comes to squashing beetles. Lol.