Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum

MEMBER & GUEST INTERACTION SECTION => THE COFFEE HOUSE ((( SOCIAL - ROOM ))) => Topic started by: Acebird on August 11, 2021, 08:39:37 am

Title: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Acebird on August 11, 2021, 08:39:37 am
Covid is not a hoax and the vaccine works as intended.
Is it not obvious why particular states are in trouble?  Should the whole country pay for their mistakes that can easily be prevented?
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Kathyp on August 11, 2021, 02:30:46 pm
Quote
Covid is not a hoax and the vaccine works as intended.
COVID is not a hoax.  The vaccine and how it works is still TBD.  We won't have all the answers on that for some time.

Quote
Is it not obvious why particular states are in trouble?  Should the whole country pay for their mistakes that can easily be prevented?

The states that "are in trouble" according to the the press are all red states.  Here are the state by state stats
https://usafacts.org/visualizations/coronavirus-covid-19-spread-map/

let's look at who is unvaccinated.  Hispanics and blacks are the least likely to be vaccinated.  I believe the black population just reached 50% vaccination for those eligible.  Since the vaccine is free and readily available, then yes, this part is easily prevented. 

Border states:  100s of thousands of illegals are flooding across the border from many countries.  We know that 100s of known + covid illegals have been turned loose in the US.  Not only might this account for increased infections in those border states, not to mention increased variants, but illegals are being shipped all over the country.  We don't know where and we don't know what they are doing after being shipped out.  Unless they are sick, they are not tested.  Even if they are tested and are + they are not kept in quarantine. 

If certain states are in trouble with COVID, the reasons are not obvious, but we can certainly see how stupid federal policies could be impacting the infection rate not only for those states, but for all of us.

As for the minority issue of not getting vaccinated, what would you do?  PSAs have been done.  Outreach has been done.  The vaccine is available.  Would you force people to take it?

It's OK to really think things through. 

How often is this happening?  They are not telling us.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/texas-police-covid-illegal-immigrants-whataburger

https://cis.org/Arthur/Who-Hiding-Number-CovidPositive-Migrants-Released-Rio-Grande-Valley

Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Kathyp on August 11, 2021, 06:05:08 pm
Just ran across this.  It is preliminary but worth keeping track.

https://www.axios.com/coronavirus-vaccines-pfizer-moderna-delta-biden-e9be4bb0-3d10-4f56-8054-5410be357070.html

Side note.  My advice to my kids was that before they submit their kids to vaccines, they have antibody tests done on them.  With luck, and since they live in a state that did not mandate masks and distancing in school, the kids have been exposed already.  Everyone else has to suffer the constant mutations because we tried to control this rather than letting it burn out.
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Acebird on August 12, 2021, 09:04:11 am
LOL I suppose they could have let it burn out and that certainly would have got rid of Trump and the swamp sooner.  It also would have created a glut in Social Security.  Most definitely would have blown the economy.  I seriously think you and your family should take a trip to India or many other countries in the world and if you live tell us all how burn out works.  I wouldn't recommend it but you could prove your half baked theories.
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Kathyp on August 12, 2021, 12:18:59 pm
Quote
LOL I suppose they could have let it burn out and that certainly would have got rid of Trump and the swamp sooner.  It also would have created a glut in Social Security.  Most definitely would have blown the economy.  I seriously think you and your family should take a trip to India or many other countries in the world and if you live tell us all how burn out works.  I wouldn't recommend it but you could prove your half baked theories.

Picking India was a mistake.  India was completely locked down at the beginning of this pandemic. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_lockdown_in_India

You are correct though, the outcome would have been different.  We would not have trained people to the idea that they can declare an emergency and do whatever they want, regardless of state or federal laws.  We would not have habituated a large part of the population to the idea that following unlawful orders and giving up freedoms is fine as long as you are convinced that there IS an emergency. 
We would not have set up the conditions for the federal government to spend trillions we don't have to enact their leftist wish list.

There should have been only two considerations.
  1. protect the healthcare system. That's what the 2 weeks to slow the spread was about and as it turned out, the health care system, for all its complaints, was fine.

2.  educate the high-risk people so that they could protect themselves.  The role of the government in the second case would have been to protect the high-risk people from losing jobs, homes, etc.  Some very temporary programs that allowed them to stay home safely and without fear of loss.

The longer this hangs around, the more it will mutate.  The majority of the masks people wear do not stop a virus.  In fact, it was funny to watch our news people talk about how masks would not protect from the fire smoke particles...and their little brains were trying not to explode on screen as they listened to what they were saying.
The virus is jumping the vaccines.  We don't know how that is going to play out. 

 The message now should be that vaccinated or not, this virus is here to stay.  Time to live with it and carry on.  But hey, that would not let them finish the emergency programs they wish to institute.  I hear forgiving student loans completely is high on the next wish list.  Gotta stay masked for that one!!

Oh, and that thing our Gov signed to let kids graduate without showing proficiency in math, reading, etc?  that's part of this emergency.  For some reason, COVID and various other stuff make school unfair for minority students so the solution is to dump all graduation standards and give everyone a diploma.  After all, those poor POC are not smart enough to learn...so says the left!
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Kathyp on August 12, 2021, 12:36:50 pm
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/12/herd-immunity-is-mythical-with-the-covid-delta-variant-experts-say.html

Kind of interesting.  Just more info and ideas to put into the mix. 

one more

https://www.wsj.com/articles/israel-80-vaccinated-suffers-another-covid-19-surge-11628769603
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Acebird on August 13, 2021, 08:56:20 am
Israel is a heavily populated spit of land surrounded by impoverished countries all in turmoil.  They don't have the luxury of the Pacific and Atlantic Ocean for segregation.  The only way a vaccine can work is if everyone takes it and there is a barrier for reinfection from different variants.  As I said this from the beginning we did this entirely backwards.  Children should have been vaccinated first then move up in age.  The anti vaxxers prevented that from happening.  The problem we have today is a left over from the ignorant Trump administration.  Over time the ignorance will be weeded out naturally.  Good time to invest in pharmaceuticals.
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Kathyp on August 13, 2021, 11:24:46 am
Quote
Israel is a heavily populated spit of land surrounded by impoverished countries all in turmoil.  They don't have the luxury of the Pacific and Atlantic Ocean for segregation.  The only way a vaccine can work is if everyone takes it and there is a barrier for reinfection from different variants.  As I said this from the beginning we did this entirely backwards.  Children should have been vaccinated first then move up in age.  The anti vaxxers prevented that from happening.  The problem we have today is a left over from the ignorant Trump administration.  Over time the ignorance will be weeded out naturally.  Good time to invest in pharmaceuticals.

Not sure of your point on Israel.  Not sure you read the article.  At any rate, WE don't have the luxury of closing our borders and so we have 100s of thousands of people from all over the world, many COVID positive with whatever variants are in their country, marching in and being shipped all over the country. 

Quote
Children should have been vaccinated first then move up in age.

Why would you do it that way?  The virus is mild in kids unless they have underlying conditions.  Kids are not spreaders of the virus.  Now, that may change with different mutations, but how does it make sense to vaccinate those who are least at risk and least apt to spread the virus ahead of those most at risk and most apt to spread it? 

No, anti-vaxxers had nothing to do with the order of vaccination.  It was determined by risk and by the fact that it is not an FDA approved vaccine. 

Quote
The problem we have today is a left over from the ignorant Trump administration.  Over time the ignorance will be weeded out naturally.

There might be some truth in this.  The left was declaring their distrust of the vaccine before Trump was out of office.  Some of the most listened to voices, from Cuomo to Biden were casting doubt because the vaccine had come in under Trump.
Since the biggest groups refusing the vaccine are Hispanic and Black, and we can assume from past voting records most of those people did not vote for Trump, it is reasonable to think that they listened to their Dem leaders and now distrust the vaccine. 

Ignorance will be weeded out.  True statement.   :cheesy:
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Ben Framed on August 13, 2021, 12:06:34 pm
True or False?


https://www.bitchute.com/embed/TsuLjEqXjXPB/?fbclid=IwAR3fOetSnYOs80Us-zdHdiXZdTICiN2b5ZSlOvy1ew9b27KpKwBN8bOGYrg


Dr Dan Stock
Cordsville Indiana
To address your comment gee it?s hard to believe we?re 18 months into this and still having a problem. And I would suggest the reason is why the problem is we?re doings things that are not useful. And we?re getting our sources  of information from the Indiana state board of health and cdc who actually don?t bother to read science before they do this. I?m actually a functioning _____ i.e. Medicine Physician. That means I am specially trained in  immunology and inflammation regulation and everything being recommended by the CDC and state board of health is actually contrary to all the rules of science.

i.e. word not understood

So things you should know about corona virus and all other respiratory viruses. They are spread by aerosol particles which are small enough to go through every mask. By the way the literature which supports all of that is in the flash drive that we presented to you and has been given to the secretary.  As a matter of fact it quotes at least three studies sponsored by the NIH to that exact fact even thought the CDC and NIH have chosen to ignore their science that they paid to have done.

That is why you keep struggling with this is because you can not make these viruses go away. The natural history of all respiratory viruses is that they circulate all year long waiting for the immune system to get sick through the winter or become deranged as has happened recently with these vaccines and they cause symptomatic disease. Because they can not be filtered out, and they have animal reservoirs, (and this is a very important point), no one can make this virus go away. The CDC has managed to convince everybody that we can handle this like we did smallpox. Where we can make the virus go away. Smallpox has no animal reservoirs the only thing it learned to infect, is humans that?s why were able to make that virus go away.  That will not happen with this anymore than it will with influenza, the common cold, respiratory seneschal virus, adoral virus, respiratory syndrome, or anything else that has animal reservoirs.

So the reason you can?t do this is because your trying to do something which has already been tried and can?t be done.

Equally important, is that vaccination changes none of this especially with this vaccine. I would hope this board would start asking itself before it considers taking the advise of the CDC the NIH and the state board of health, why were you doing things about this that we didn?t do for the common cold, influenza, or respiratory  seneschal virus? And then ask yourself; why is a vaccine that is so supposedly effective, having a break out in the middle of the summer when respiratory viral syndrome don?t do that!? And to help you understand that, you need to know the condition which is called antibody Mediated Viral Enhancement.  That is the  condition done when vaccines work wrong as they did in every corona virus study done in animals on corona viruses after the scars outbreak and done in respiratory  seneschal virus, where a vaccine  used in a vulnerable individual, done the wrong way, which is why it can not be done right for respiratory virus which have a very low pathengentisity rate that causes the immune system to actually fight the virus wrong and let the virus become worse than it would with native infection. And that is why you are seeing an outbreak right now. In fact that flash drive your going to have coming to you in an email. Studies showing seventy five percent of people who had Covid 19 positive symptom cases in Barnstable Massachusetts outbreak were fully vaccinated.
Therefore there is no reason for treating any person vaccinated any differently than any person unvaccinated. You should also note that NO vaccine, even the ones I would support and give to myself and my Children ever stops infection.

In 2014 there was an outbreak of mumps in the national hockey league.  The only people that came down with symptoms were the people who were unvaccinated or unknown vaccine status.  Boy that sounds like a great argument for vaccines but a question you should ask yourself knowing that half the people who came down with symptomatic disease had no contact with an unvaccinated or unknown vaccine status individual. Where did they get the disease? And the answer was from the vaccinated individuals. No vaccine prevents you from getting infection, you get infected.  You get infected, you shed pathogen this is especially true through a viral respiratory pathogen. You just don?t get symptomatic from it. So you cannot stop spread you can not make these numbers that you planned on get better by doing anything of the things you are doing, because that is the nature of viral respiratory pathogen. You can?t prevent it with a vaccine.  Because they don?t do the very things your wanting them to do and you will still be chasing this the remainder of your life until you recognize the center for disease control and the Indiana state board of health are giving you very bad scientific guidance. And Instead read the articles that are to come in your emails and on this flash drive and listen to the people in this audience here tonight who have actually recognized the advice they are getting from the CDC and the NIH is counter factual, and that?s why you are still fighting this with this vaccine that was supposedly make all this go away. But it?s suddenly managed to make an outbreak of covid 19 develop in the middle of the summer when vitamin D levels are at their highest.
By the way the other thing that would be necessary or any vaccine restriction to be considered if there were no other treatments available. And I can tell you having treated COVID 19 patients, that between active loading with vitamin D, ivermectin, and Zinc, that there is not a single person who has come anywhere near the hospital and we already have studies that show it you treat 25 hydroxy D level greater than 55 your risk of covid death will drop down to 1/4 of the population average in the United States.  There are active treatment trials included in that flash drive that show the same is true. 

So if you were going to discriminate based upon vaccine you should also discriminate based upon 25 hydroxy-vitamin  D level, zinc taste response, and probably previous infections since their are also studies on that flash drive that show that people who have recovered from covid 19 infection actually get no benefit from vaccination at all, no reduction in symptoms, no reduction in hospitalization and suffer two to four times the rate of side effects if they subsequently vaccinated. Therefore the policy that you are basing on are totally counterfactual. 

I don?t blame this board for that because I know you are not scientist and you thought it was reasonable to listen to the CDC, NIH, and the Indiana state board of health but I would encourage you instead you listen to the people out here in this audience and what you read on that data drive. And if anybody here on this board have any questions on that I will happily come back and sit with you individually if you would like to explain the science behind it. if you are worried about being sued by somebody because you don?t All the guidance of the CDC and the NIH I will tell you, you have a free Pro Bono expert testimony at your disposal.  I will testify in defense of this course turning down all these recommendations for free at anytime  and any court.  Thank You
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Michael Bush on August 22, 2021, 08:49:47 pm
There are many more likely things to kill you than COVID.  It is not a plague.  It's just another of the many variations of the flu.  We have survived worse things by far.  The Spanish flu for one...  Before all of this, I would never (and still would never) take anything that the pharmaceutical companies come out with that hasn't been on the market for ten years at least.  It often takes that long for them to admit that their new drug causes permanent damage to the patient.  Thalidamide is a good example.  So is Fen Fen.  No one at this point knows how safe the Vaccine is or what the long term effects will be.
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Acebird on August 23, 2021, 08:40:47 am
The virus is mild in kids unless they have underlying conditions.  Kids are not spreaders of the virus. 
Both these statements are false.  Please understand we have a live experiment going on here in FL.
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Acebird on August 23, 2021, 09:53:34 am
No vaccine prevents you from getting infection, you get infected.  You get infected, you shed pathogen this is especially true through a viral respiratory pathogen. You just don?t get symptomatic from it.
I tried to explain this to Kathy a while ago.  Kids spread disease like wild fire.  Any close in group of people will do the same.  There were three things that needed to happen quickly.  We need people to go to work and we need kids to go to school and we need medical facilities open and well staffed.
So the logical priority for vaccines should have been in this order: Medical staff, first responders and then working corporate America while kids stay at home.  After completion of these groups, do the kids and open up schools.  And last should have been old folks and retirees.  But it didn't happen this way because the old folks were the easiest group to convince to try the new vaccine.  The pharmaceutical companies knew what the results were going to be based on their previous testing.  Their hope was to vaccinate the other groups based on the good results from the old guinea pigs.
I don't understand the preaching of this doctor to a school board other than ego.  He admits the vaccine reduces the symptoms of the virus and it seems to me dying is a pretty good symptom to avoid.  So right there he shot himself in the foot.
It is true the virus can pass through a mask.  No different than any other filter trying to remove particles from a fluid.  The idea is to remove what you can.  You would think that would cause a demand on masks that work the best.  You would think that after this amount of time passing some entrepreneur would have gone to work on developing a mask that works the best while providing the most comfort.  Somehow that didn't happen.  In stead we have ignorance take over denying the benefits of a masks to the point where people wear essential cheese cloth around their face.  So if your going to wear a piece of spandex legging on your face then you essential have no protection at all for anyone.
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Ben Framed on August 23, 2021, 11:41:44 am
Brian you may be interested, according to Joshua Philipp reporting just last night. Israel was basically the model internationally for the vaccines. In terms numbers of the population getting the vaccines. Israel was kind of the working model for getting people vaccinated and reopening. What?s happening in Israel now, He states >Epoch Times Reports more than half of the seriously ill covid 19 patients in Israel are fully vaccinated.< 

Brian do you find the report disturbing and strange?  Isn?t the whole purpose of a vaccine to be relied on as described by the CDC below? If more than half the seriously ill in Israel are fully vaccinated where does that leave us?

CDC description of vaccine

Vaccine: A product that stimulates a person?s immune system to produce immunity to a specific disease, protecting the person from that disease.

Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: gww on August 23, 2021, 12:26:03 pm
Ben
Quote
Brian do you find the report disturbing and strange?  Isn?t the whole purpose of a vaccine to be relied on as described by the CDC below? If more than half the seriously ill in Israel are fully vaccinated where does that leave us?
This statement does take the facts and put them out of context with out added info.
They have a high population of vaccination and so in context, the there are many more vaccinated people then unvaccinated for possible infection.  So if break though is at 50 percent of people with vaccines six months ago, the number of seriously ill might be as high as unvaccinated of which there are a fewer number of but that means that 50 percent of the vaccinated are still protected fully.  The vaccines were never to be 100 percent protective.

What those seriously ill people in the hospital being half vaccinated does not take away the fact that the ones that are not vaccinated are still nine times more likely to have serous illness but there are just fewer of unvaccinated in the population in Israel. 
This is like all base facts that are just threw out as the truth.   They may not be the truth if not put forth in a contextual manner.

I wish the vaccines were 100 percent effective but the truth is the truth.  However, the data does show they are vary effective compared to nothing.
Cheers
gww
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Ben Framed on August 23, 2021, 01:21:35 pm
I recognize your point. Added info would be of interest. Still over half of the seriously ill in the country have been fully vaccinated if the repot is accurate.regardless. Don?t be surprised if the FDA soon jumps into fully approving the experimental vaccines very soon.

You might find the following article interesting.

[b]The New York Times [/b]

Israeli Data Suggests Possible Waning
in Effectiveness of Pfizer Vaccine


By Carl Zimmer
Published July 23, 2021
Updated Aug. 18, 2021
As Israel struggles with a new surge of coronavirus cases, its health ministry reported on Thursday that although effectiveness of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine remains high against severe illness, its protection against infection by the coronavirus may have diminished significantly compared with this winter and early spring.
Analyzing the government?s national health statistics, researchers estimated that the Pfizer shot was just 39 percent effective against preventing infection in the country in late June and early July, compared with 95 percent from January to early April. In both time periods, however, the shot was more than 90 percent effective in preventing severe disease.
Israeli scientists cautioned that the new study is much smaller than the first and that it measured cases in a narrower window of time. As a result, a much larger range of uncertainties flank their estimates, which could also be skewed by a variety of other factors.
Dr. Ran Balicer, the chairman of Israel?s Covid-19 National Expert Advisory Panel, said that the challenges of making accurate estimates of vaccine effectiveness were ?immense.? He said that more careful analysis of the raw data was needed to understand what is going on.

It goes on to say  more.
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: gww on August 23, 2021, 02:13:13 pm
ben
Pfizer is what I got.  Always wishing for perfection but having to settle for the truth.  The truth for now is it will take a long time to see what a third dose will do.  I have heard estimates that it may make long term antibodies last a lot longer then every year with the caveat that they really will not know till time goes by and real things happen.  The data for now is actually pretty good if only compared to what the minimum goal was when trying to come up with it.  They were hoping hit 50 percent and to beat the low marks they get with the flu vaccine and did so very well. 

Lots of other motivation to go ahead and get the vaccine just because it works at all.  Many insurance companies are no longer waiving copays and such if hospitalized with it and so avoiding those kind of extra cost is a pretty good incentive to go with the hoping to protect those you love that are around you.  So chances of ending up in the hospital may not be zero but when playing the odds, might as well hedge your bet as well as can be done.
Cheers
gww
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Ben Framed on August 23, 2021, 02:38:37 pm
gww I hope you do not mind me asking you, what do you think of Mr Bushs' comment number 9 above? Do you see merit there? Adding, I am not clowning as usual, I am being sincere..
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: gww on August 23, 2021, 03:34:33 pm
Ben
I would say that the only people that go fda for approval are those that want to make money off of what they get approved.  Same in bee keeping and one of the reasons that oa was used for many years with out approval.  It is up to the guy wanting the approval to provide the date and the fda (to me) mostly uses their data to decide with but do not get their own data.  Fda is not a research org it is a authorization body.  Sorta like peer review is done.  Kathy alluded to this in her pointing out that this is old tech but there was no big money in advancing it and so why it was on the back burner with out near the resources compared to money making stuff.  Now money has been thrown at it by the gov.  Your money. 

Micheal is right in some ways, in one sense, you could say bacon kills more people then covid and covid affects those that ate lots of bacon during a long life more adversely.  However, with the vaccine we can mitigate covid and me taking it helps my neighbor and both of us taking it helps even more.  My eating bacon will only kill me.  I do not believe covid is the flu but also know heart disease kills more.  However covid does kill and is easier to midigate then heart disease at this point.

Safety?   Looking more and more safe every day with lots of data and I do not believe in world wide conspiracy to cause harm.  Would a mistake be impossible, no.  Guess the majority of us would at least be in the same boat.  Maybe some day a person will be able to say how smart he was that he is not in the same boat as all those people that took the vaccine but I have my doubts and if it goes bad for him it will be too late and if it is good then he was no help.

One thing I do know is this, I do not have the time to be a great engineer and doctor and architect and mechanic and ect. and so have no choice in life but to rely a bit on experts.

Should you be a sheep and not worry at all, I do not think so but should we recognize our limitations and try and do our best from there, I say yes. 

Did fen fin happen, of course it did, Did tobacco companies hide data, of course.  Of course they were found out in the end and with lots less people looking then are looking through out the world on these vaccines.
Just my thoughts on your question.
Cheers
gww

PS  To micheals point on waiting ten years due to bad things happening in the past.  I could say I know some body who took a swim in the lake my mom and dad live on and drowned and so I wont swim in that lake any more.   I need to know water might be dangerous but also know that just staying in the boat can be hot and dangerous also.  If I can not swim, a life jacket might be better then heat stroke.  Some people will not be able to take the vaccine just like my grandkid can not eat peanuts.  That would even be more reason for me to take it if the data is showing my risk as being less then those who may not have a choice.
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Ben Framed on August 23, 2021, 05:48:21 pm
Thanks for your thoughts  on this.

Phillip
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Ben Framed on August 23, 2021, 10:29:51 pm
Not everyone agrees on everything as we all know. In this situation, I suppose it boils down to what we do know. With all the conflicting views in the Science Community I do not think they really know either; what the results of all this will be on down the road, either way. I suppose a person should do as much research as possible, making their own decisions accordingly. Strange times indeed...
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: gww on August 23, 2021, 10:50:18 pm
Ben
200 million people have taken the shot.  They know a lot and there is not much dissention in the scientific community except on the very fringes which most of the community dismisses as stuff that real data is not showing to be true.

If there was real data showing all the fear based stuff, it could not be hid with the whole world being involved and also the competition between all the vaccine makers.  That it might be hid would be an unreasonable position to take.

It might be better to concentrate on how when they mandated small pox vaccinations history has shown it to be a great success.

Cheers
gww
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Kathyp on August 23, 2021, 11:22:46 pm
Quote
They know a lot and there is not much dissention in the scientific community except on the very fringes which most of the community dismisses as stuff that real data is not showing to be true.

You are probably not wrong, but there are two things that have been done wrong and have contributed to the suspicions.  1. When the people telling us what to do and not do, do not know something, they should just say so.  In this way, Fauci has been very harmful.  He was the wrong messenger and continues to do the cause more harm than good if they want to convince people to do things and 2. The censorship.  Nothing makes people, even rational people, get their backs up more than telling them that there is info they do not have a right to see.
As it turns out, some of what they have censored and the people they have censored, have had good info and are very knowledgeable people. 

This was especially true when there was no vaccine and no proven treatment, but some clinicians were finding that in many people certain combinations of drugs helped.  It was not bad info.  It was not wrong info.  It was something that doctors could try when they had nothing else to use and the drugs were safe drugs.  Even so, info and people talking about those drugs and combinations of drugs were shut down and de-platformed.

You want people to do a thing and trust it, you have to act trustworthy.  Many of the "scientists" and most of the press and SM platforms have failed. 

Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: gww on August 24, 2021, 12:11:26 am
Kathy
I get your point but I also get people like fauci's point.  They are very risk adverse and want months of trials of thirty thousand people's data before they commit and yet they want to be the boss cause on the things they are willing to commit to they have a study some where to point to so that it is not their fault.  I run into this all the time when I participate in Bee l and they tell me what I am saying is antidotal and I tell them I only know what I see and it works for me.  I have noticed a certain dismissiveness rather then really being smart and addressing the subject. 

The other issue is that no matter how smart you are, you are not smart enough to think of every question that might come up in actual implementation of what people think you are saying.  So you put off or bluff until having time to think about it.  I personally think fauci did pretty good though always leaving room for things to change.

The doctor in the field is doing a good job if he is dealing with something that there is no given answer to instead of giving up even if he makes a mistake though he should learn while making them.  Reminds me of an old movie and polio, I think, where this nurse was trying stuff on the frontier and main stream medical was not agreeing.  Plenty of truth in real history of this too.

I always did like they mad splitters saying of you don't know what you don't know Or you only know what you know, cant remember exactly.

However like all things, even if stuff works or looks like it works (docs used to prescribe smoking two cigarettes' in the morning if you can't breath when you wake up), it comes down to how others translate it.  There have been doctors prescribe goat wormer but poison control has had to hospitalize at least two people for taking it on their own.  Sounds like the kind of thing I might do just to not have to go to the doc.  I have pulled two of my own teeth in front of a mirror before. 

If I keep the above stuff in mind, I can think that fauci did ok just as not being too critical of a doc with no answers trying anyway and if successful can it be communicated correctly and caution about that.
Almost nothing is perfect and finding something to be critical of is always possible.  I do my best, probably in a poor way to try and decide in my criticisms to figure out how germane they are to the big picture.   
Cheers
gww
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Acebird on August 24, 2021, 08:58:18 am

One thing I do know is this, I do not have the time to be a great engineer and doctor and architect and mechanic and ect. and so have no choice in life but to rely a bit on experts.

All of us do this on a daily basis without even thinking about it.  We get in an automobile which is the most deadly machine ever concocted.
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Acebird on August 24, 2021, 09:05:05 am
Question for Kathy:  Pfizer's vaccine is now fully approved.  Did the formula change?  Did the process for making it change?  Did anything change?  Are you happy now?  So now all the sheep in the military will line up for their shot along with all the other vaccines they are given.  That is the only change I can see.  Nothing but a technicality.
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Kathyp on August 24, 2021, 06:31:49 pm
Quote
Question for Kathy:  Pfizer's vaccine is now fully approved.  Did the formula change?  Did the process for making it change?  Did anything change?  Are you happy now?  So now all the sheep in the military will line up for their shot along with all the other vaccines they are given.  That is the only change I can see.  Nothing but a technicality.

Hmmm.  Didn't know you hated the military.  In fact, the Pentagon says 70% of the military is already vaccinated.  That's pretty good after the mess of the Anthrax vaccine. 
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/07/16/military-coronavirus-vaccine-499822

If only you could get black and Hispanic voters to line up...but hey, as a leftist, you think black and brown people are dumb anyway.

I think you need to do your own homework on the FDA process and exceptions to that process.  God forbid that you learn something, but hope springs eternal. 
What has changed?  It is now approved rather than being used under an emergency exception. 
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Acebird on August 25, 2021, 09:33:28 am
It is now approved rather than being used under an emergency exception.
Whoopy!  I feel much safer now, how about you?
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Kathyp on August 25, 2021, 01:45:02 pm
Quote
Whoopy!  I feel much safer now, how about you?

Makes no difference to my choices. I don't make choices based on feelings.  Might make a difference for some. 

Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Acebird on August 26, 2021, 08:41:56 am
I don't make choices based on feelings. 
You might feel differently when not getting vaccinated ends up costing you.  Cost of insurance, cost of your life.  I thought it would happen sooner.  I am waiting for denial at the emergency rooms to become the norm.  That will change things in a heartbeat.  The nonsense will end either by submission or attrition.
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Kathyp on August 26, 2021, 10:14:10 am
Quote
You might feel differently when not getting vaccinated ends up costing you.  Cost of insurance, cost of your life.  I thought it would happen sooner.  I am waiting for denial at the emergency rooms to become the norm.  That will change things in a heartbeat.  The nonsense will end either by submission or attrition.

I won't.  Freedom has risks and can be messy.  It is also the one thing worth our lives...or at least worth my life.  I can see that there are many who would give it up for the illusion of safety. 

You have decided certain things will keep you safe and if you only keep doing as you are told, all will be well.  I am watching people use this as an excuse for power plays and can see how if we keep doing as we are told, all will not be well.
Habituate a population to following orders, especially orders outside the law, and there is nothing that can't be done with and to them.

Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Acebird on August 26, 2021, 01:27:59 pm
LOL the hospitals are filled with "tough guys" begging for the vaccine when it is too late for them.
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Michael Bush on September 12, 2021, 10:12:31 pm
 >LOL the hospitals are filled with "tough guys" begging for the vaccine when it is too late for them.

BS.
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: salvo on September 12, 2021, 11:26:42 pm
Hi Folks,

It's happening everywhere. A friend of mine from work went to a *generally busy* hospital ER, at 4 AM due to a persistent nose bleed that night. She was the ONLY patient there. Talking to the two nurses and the doctor, she learned that the hospital has been quiet lately. This hospital covers four towns in south-east Massachusetts, all of which are believed to have less than 50% vaccination rates. OH! These towns voted TRUMP also.

It is bovine feces.

The hospital actually got a work-out when a guy I know got stung by a wasp and went into anaphylaxis. They saved him.

[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]

Copied and pasted:
A Zoom video conference call recording between physicians and a marketing director at Novant Heath New Hanover Regional Medical Center revealed an internal discussion to manipulate the COVID case and death data to induce a public panic.

Dr. Mary Rudyk is seen telling Director of Marketing Carolyn Fisher that she wants hospitals to become more ?scary to the public? by inflating the number of COVID patients so they can falsely tell individuals, ?If you don?t get vaccinated, you know you?re going to die.?

SHOCK VIDEO: Senior doctors and a marketing director at in North Carolina discussed inflating COVID-19 numbers by counting recovered patients as active COVID patients.

?We need to be? more scary to the public? If you don?t get vaccinated, you know you?re going to die.? pic.twitter.com/66CcIsVR4B

Please click the link:

https://www.whqr.org/local/2021-09-11/novant-health-responds-to-leaked-internal-video-of-frank-discussion-on-covid-19-messaging

Sal



Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Michael Bush on September 13, 2021, 08:56:01 pm
You'll find that the usual picture used to show that the ERs are full is recycled every few months while saying it is a different city or even a different country.  Apparently there are no full ERs to let them get an up to date picture in the actual city they are lying about.
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Acebird on September 14, 2021, 08:25:07 am
Well Mike I am afraid we have reality here in FL.
In NE on Sept 12 you had 1 death due to covid whereas FL had 242.  If you built a wall around NE and didn't let anyone out you wouldn't have to do anything in NE.  As my son jokingly says in WY we have been practicing social distancing since the 1800's.  FL is quite a different story exacerbated by our mini Trump governor.  I would gladly support domestic war crimes against DeSantis for the number of senseless deaths he has and is causing.  Just like the two faced Texan.  Terminating unborn babies is killing but spreading the virus during a pandemic is fine.  Think about how that wall around NE would affect you personally.  There is already a virtual wall around the US...  Not vaccinated don't come to my country.  Think about how that affects our economy and our freedoms.
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: salvo on September 14, 2021, 08:56:34 am
Hi Folks,

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/tucker-carlson-degradation-people-american-crisis

T-Burd,

When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. All of the pain is fely by others.

The same thing happens when you're stupid.

Sal
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Kathyp on September 14, 2021, 05:04:45 pm
I hear the bit about governors causing death all the time.  The only one I know of who actually caused deaths from COVID was the Gov of NY. 

I would suggest a couple of things.  1. if someone is going to compare deaths and sickness in states they need to compare demographics too.  and 2. Explain how giving people choices makes a governor responsible for life or death? 

I get it.  There are people who would rather be told what to do.  It's easier.  Ask some of the old USSR residents that had to figure out how to live without someone telling them what to do day in and day out.  Being free is hard work.  Some of them actually bemoaned the end of communism.  Easier to stand in a bread line than earn bread.
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Acebird on September 15, 2021, 08:43:26 am
2. Explain how giving people choices makes a governor responsible for life or death? 
The question leads me to believe the lack of intelligence on infectious disease.
Quote
Easier to stand in a bread line than earn bread.
And you know this how?
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Michael Bush on September 18, 2021, 06:45:59 pm
We really didn?t do Covid here.  Nebraska never shut down officially though a lot of places quit hiring and a lot worked from home.  I don?t know anyone who supposedly died from it. I don?t see more than one in twenty people wear a mask anymore.  The schools are still open.  They aren't wearing masks.  Iowa took a different route and Council Bluffs downtown is a ghost town.  I bet one in three businesses might still be open.  Hard to say until you knock on the door but half have taken down their signs and emptied the building.  A lot,  though, look like they are still in business but no one is there.
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Acebird on September 19, 2021, 09:31:34 am
Really Mike? 2626 so far on record.  As I said it doesn't matter what the people in NE do about covid unless they travel and most don't.  For those that do they need an ID it is called a covid passport.
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Michael Bush on September 20, 2021, 09:46:52 pm
>For those that do they need an ID it is called a covid passport.

BS
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: salvo on September 21, 2021, 12:37:01 am
Hi Folks,

Interestingly, my wife had to go to the ER Sunday at noon. (I did too) This is a big, beautiful, regional hospital. The Beth Israel Deaconess. A lot of people know its name.

Anywayyyy, No covid people in there! Elderly lady who tripped and fell. Infant who "fell" (I think an abuse report should be filed. Stupid mother). A number of quiet others. NO COVID! PRETTY QUIET! Everyone competent wore masks. I would think hospitals are a bad place to be. We were nervous, but nobody sputtering and wheezing. No screams for the jab before it's too late. No cries of PLEASE DON"T LET ME DIE! Kinda looked like the olde days, with masks!

My wife and I were talking. She has to see our pc to get stitches out Friday. My wife does get the yearly flu shot. She said she could get it Friday. Our pc can not give the covid jab.  Around here you can only get it at drug stores. We think it's because if doctors DID give it, it would be covered by our insurance. If we go to the CVS drug store, the Government pays for it. We're not sure about this, but it is insidious enough to be true. I think I heard they get $1,400 per shot given. TRUE? What have you heard.

WIN-WIN for big business. LOSE_LOSE for the taxpayer.

Why is it that EVERYTHING the government is doing is DEPLETEING our country. Every mis-step costs ME money. WHOOPS! We accidentally left all that stuff in Afghanistan. WHOOPS! Cant send all those hitch-hikers home. Gotta give them aid.

And how come we can't get OUR money back from corrupt people. Assraf Ghani fled with 159 MILLION. GET IT BACK! I heard Assraf was a personal friend of Blinkin, from the good old days at Johns Hopkins.

I'm tired. And I have to go to work in the morning. Somebody's gotta pay the bills around here.

Sal



Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Ben Framed on September 30, 2021, 10:42:30 pm
"When will the ignorant get smart?"

Good question.....



https://youtu.be/Pfw93jSoZt4
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Michael Bush on October 12, 2021, 07:57:17 pm
>Pfizer's vaccine is now fully approved.

And this is not really true.  The only vaccines being given are not fully approved.  Pfizer got a vaccine with a different name and label approved (without any of the actual required testing being done) but that vaccine with that name and label is NOT available to anyone.  So this whole "approval" is a sleight of hand.
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Ben Framed on December 06, 2021, 02:00:57 pm
Bill Maher?  A little responsibility you say? Surely you are not accusing the liberal media? And many many many have come down with it, 'after' ? Including yourself? Surely you have flown the coop Bill?


https://youtube.com/shorts/XriKuSGQOdg?feature=share
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Ben Framed on December 10, 2021, 07:25:20 am
True or false? FDA says it now needs 75 years before releasing Pfizer COVID-19 data to the public. Apparently the FDA wishes to keep citizens ignorant of the facts? If this is true what is the big secrets?

So to answer your question Ace:  >When will the ignorant get smart?<
Answer: 75 year; maybe..



https://www.theepochtimes.com/fda-says-it-now-needs-75-years-to-fully-release-pfizer-covid-19-vaccine-data_4145410.html
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Ben Framed on December 10, 2021, 07:32:16 am
True or false? FDA says it now needs 75 years before releasing Pfizer COVID-19 data to the public. Apparently the FDA wishes to keep citizens ignorant of the facts? If this is true what is the big secrets?

So to answer your question Ace:  >When will the ignorant get smart?<
Answer: 75 years; maybe..



https://www.theepochtimes.com/fda-says-it-now-needs-75-years-to-fully-release-pfizer-covid-19-vaccine-data_4145410.html


A quick Message from President John F Kennedy about secrecy...

https://youtu.be/xhZk8ronces
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: BeeMaster2 on December 10, 2021, 09:11:54 am

Kennedy era Democrats were very conservative and had the nations interest as the main goal as you can here in this speech. Today?s Democrats are only about turning this country into a socialist run total government dependency country. Exactly what I spent half of my life fighting. It really makes me sick. I?m sure JFK is rolling over in his grave over what his party has turned into.
Jim Altmiller
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Ben Framed on December 10, 2021, 01:07:41 pm
If you listen slowly, and VERY CLOSELY to each word of every sentence, one sentence at a time, with each sentence building on the last, slowly paints a picture you may plainly and clearly see and understand EXACTLY by his words, that there were goings on behind the scenes by forces of evil; Plotting and scheming these same, being rehearsed, manufactured, and implemented, (in secret), even then by those HE was speaking of. All he ask for was a honest and open press.  To be 'bold and responsible'. To report the truth with nothing hidden, nothing held back, even and including, himself and his very own administration. A fair and balanced reporting to Americans for the good of America.

Though I can't prove it; I am of the opinion, his not playing ball cost his life. It might have been different is the press would have been Americans first, heeding his pleas. Getting the truth out to We The People of his day and time. He stated his confidence in Americans; IF they had a clear understanding of the un-hidden truth. He knew like minded people, Americans, no matter the 'party' would be united in stomping out the fires of anything which was anti-American according to Our clear document, Our Constitution. While reminding the press of such.

He was an American. Not just an American 'in name only'. He was a Loyal American, a loyalty which came before the loyalty of his party or the politics of that party, just as it should be.  It is apparent the plotters which he spoke of, and schemes of those plots, have moved ahead through the years, advancing the goals of which he spoke and warned. If President Kennedy was born in a different era, this time and era, running for President, giving that same speech, I have little doubt that hate would be rained down upon him, openly and publicly. He may be publicly hated just as much by the left, no matter which party the left may be associated with, just as surely as the the last (America First) President was and is hated . 

Ronald Reagan another GREAT Democrat of that day, left the party just one year after President Kennedys' great Speech. President Regan knew the grave dangers of forces seeking to take down America from within. He too warned us by saying, > Freedom is a fragile thing and is never more than one generation away from extinction. It is not ours by inheritance; it must be fought for and defended constantly by each generation, for it comes only once to a people. Those who have known freedom, and then lost it, have never known it again.<

But be not deceived, it is not just in one party, there are wolves in sheep clothing in the Republican Party as well. These two men knew it. They were not deceived by 'the swamp of their day' of either party. Their focus was on America and the goodness and well being of Americans before any party. They understood, they 'got it' as Kathy might say.

 This is all my opinion.

Undistorted history, when can be found such as this spearheaded speech by President Kennedy, is a clear roadmap for what lies ahead if not understood and voted out. Not voting against the party, but the idealism of the party, the idealism which that party represents.

Mr Reagan that great democrat which switched "I did not leave the Democratic Party, the party left me." He also   said; "Freedom is fragile."

And it is...........
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Acebird on December 12, 2021, 08:54:21 am
Phil you would make a great preacher.
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Ben Framed on December 12, 2021, 02:36:46 pm
Phil you would make a great preacher.

Thanks Ace, But I don't feel I am good enough to be a preacher.






 
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Ben Framed on December 13, 2021, 12:44:49 am
                                 


                                                 

                                                               THE EPOCH TIMES   

WHO: No Deaths Reported as a Result of Omicron Variant to Date December 10, 2021 Updated: December 12, 2021
By Nathan Worcester 


The World Health Organization (WHO) says it hasn't documented any deaths yet from the Omicron variant of the CCP (Chinese Communist Party) virus, which causes COVID-19.

"For Omicron, we have not had any deaths reported, but it is still early in the clinical course of the disease and this may change." The WHO told The Epoch Times.

When reached for comment by The Epoch Times, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) sent its report on the Omicron variant in the United States for Dec. 1 through Dec. 8. It shows that there were no documented deaths from Omicron during that period.

The WHO's latest weekly epidemiological update, on Dec. 7, showed that all 212 Omicron cases documented across 18 European Union (EU) countries were either mild or asymptomatic.

"While South Africa saw an 82 percent increase in hospital admissions due to COVID-19 (from 502 to 912) during the week 28 November/ 4 December 2021, it is not yet known the proportion of these with the Omicron variant," the report notes.

Omicron has also been detected in the United States, first in California and later in Colorado, New York, Maryland, Utah, and many other states.

The first U.S. patient with the variant was identified in San Francisco, testing positive for COVID-19 on Nov. 29 after returning from a trip to South Africa on Nov. 22. However, the California Department of Public Health has confirmed to the Los Angeles Times that the variant was present in wastewater as early as Nov. 25.

Epoch Times Photo
A patient is treated in a hospital in Johannesburg, in a file photograph. (Sumaya Hisham/Reuters)
Originally known as B.1.1.529, the variant first made international headlines on Nov. 26, soon after it was initially detected in South Africa.

That day, the WHO named B.1.1.529 as Omicron and labeled it a "variant of concern." Two days later, in a technical brief, it said the strain could present a "very high" risk, citing its large number of mutations.

Meanwhile, Dr. Angelique Coetzee, the chair of the South African Medical Association and one of the first doctors to treat patients with Omicron has consistently maintained that Omicron is a mild variant.

"Let me be clear: nothing I have seen about this new variant warrants the extreme action the UK government has taken in response to it," she wrote in The Daily Mail.


Coetzee was referring to "heavy travel restrictions on flights from across southern Africa, as well as imposing tighter rules at home on mask-wearing, fines, and extended quarantines."

"No one here in South Africa is known to have been [hospitalized] with the Omicron variant, nor is anyone here believed to have fallen seriously ill with it," she wrote.

More recently, Coetzee told ThePrint that Omicron symptoms have been mild in both vaccinated and unvaccinated patients.

"In the beginning of any wave, children and younger people are the first to be affected," she told ThePrint. "As the wave progresses, more elderly, people with comorbidities, start getting affected. When that happens, we will know exactly how many severe cases there are."







https://www.theepochtimes.com/no-confirmed-omicron-deaths-so-far-who-cdc_4150331.html?utm_campaign=socialshare_email
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Ben Framed on December 15, 2021, 12:10:14 am
Has the man who invented mRNA technology flipped his lid? Has he went bonkers? You tell me...


https://twitter.com/i/status/1470759488194248707

Inventor of mRNA Vaccine Warns Parents: Jabs Could Permanently Damage Children?s Critical Organs
by Adan Salazar
December 14th 2021, 1:05 pm


"Before you inject your child " a decision that is irreversible " I wanted to let you know the scientific facts about this genetic vaccine, which is based on the mRNA vaccine technology I created,? Dr. Malone begins.


Malone goes on to explain the spike proteins induced by the vaccine could do permanent damage to a child?s brain, nervous system, heart and blood vessels, their reproductive system and their immune system.

"The most alarming point about this is that once these damages have occurred, they are irreparable," Malone warns, adding that "This vaccine can cause reproductive damage that could affect future generations of your family."


Furthermore, Malone points out the mRNA jabs have not undergone significant testing, so long-term risks and complications that could turn up later down the road haven?t been properly assessed.

"Ask yourself if you want your own child to be part of the most radical medical experiment in human history," Malone says.

Lastly, Malone says the premise that children need to be given the vaccine is faulty and that their immunity "after getting Covid" is crucial so the human immune system can adapt to the disease.

"In summary: there is no benefit for your children or your family to be vaccinating your children against the small risks of the virus, given the known health risks of the vaccine that as a parent, you and your children may have to live with for the rest of their lives."

Dr. Malone concludes by urging parents and grandparents to ?resist and fight to protect your children.?

Read a transcript of Dr. Malone?s statement below:

My name is Robert Malone, and I am speaking to you as a parent, grandparent, physician and scientist. I don't usually read from a prepared speech, but this is so important that I wanted to make sure that I get every single word and scientific fact correct.

I stand by this statement with a career dedicated to vaccine research and development. I'm vaccinated for COVID and I'm generally pro-vaccination. I have devoted my entire career to developing safe and effective ways to prevent and treat infectious diseases.

After this, I will be posting the text of this statement so you can share it with your friends and family.

Before you inject your child " a decision that is irreversible " I wanted to let you know the scientific facts about this genetic vaccine, which is based on the mRNA vaccine technology I created:

There are three issues parents need to understand:

● The first is that a viral gene will be injected into your children's cells. This gene forces your child's body to make toxic spike proteins. These proteins often cause permanent damage in children's critical organs, including

    ○ Their brain and nervous system

    ○ Their heart and blood vessels, including blood clots

    ○ Their reproductive system

    ○ And this vaccine can trigger fundamental changes to their immune system

● The most alarming point about this is that once these damages have occurred, they are irreparable

    ○ You can't fix the lesions within their brain

    ○ You can't repair heart tissue scarring

    ○ You can't repair a genetically reset immune system, and

    ○ This vaccine can cause reproductive damage that could affect future generations of your family

● The second thing you need to know about is the fact that this novel technology has not been adequately tested.

    ○ We need at least 5 years of testing/research before we can really understand the risks

    ○ Harms and risks from new medicines often become revealed many years later

● Ask yourself if you want your own child to be part of the most radical medical experiment in human history

● One final point: the reason they're giving you to vaccinate your child is a lie.

    ○ Your children represent no danger to their parents or grandparents

    ○ It's actually the opposite. Their immunity, after getting COVID, is critical to save your family if not the world from this disease

In summary: there is no benefit for your children or your family to be vaccinating your children against the small risks of the virus, given the known health risks of the vaccine that as a parent, you and your children may have to live with for the rest of their lives.

The risk/benefit analysis isn't even close.

As a parent and grandparent, my recommendation to you is to resist and fight to protect your children.

Follow the author on Gab: https://gab.ai/adansalazar
Minds: https://www.minds.com/adan_infowars
Twitter:
Parler: https://parler.com/profile/adansalazar/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/adan.salazar.735
Kristi Leigh speaks with Dr. Malone how we are already under global totalitarian rule:
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Acebird on December 15, 2021, 08:27:36 am
Phil, can you stop with the misinformation.  There should be a standard for being a moderator.  You are still posting more than anyone on the whole forum.
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Ben Framed on December 15, 2021, 10:09:05 am
Quote
Phil, can you stop with the misinformation.  There should be a standard for being a moderator.

Well ace I found this article, read it, then 'questioned it'. Placed it here for your viewing, inspection, and opinion, asking you if this fellows words, the words of the CREATOR of mRNA technology himself, if he has flipped his lid.

That is a legitimate question by any standard. I provided the article, which provided other links, along with a video here for your viewing, a 'video' of the top dog scientist himself, the very inventor of mRNA technology speaking from his own mouth, yes  the man himself, thus giving you the option and opportunity to debunk or confirm with facts. Which you have done neither. Only in turn you attack me, 'by accusing me'  "stop with the mis-information". (the very fellow who has been more than fair with you, the moderator as you pointed out). I do not know if the scientist has flipped his wig, though I rather doubt it. It did catch my attention and I found it worth 'posting for questioning', considering the source of the information, the scientist himself. Straight from the horses mouth if you will, by the video of him and relayed by the article.

Allow me to remind you, you and I are in America, Not Russia, Not China nor Nazi Germany of the 1930s and 40s.  If you believe So strongly in suppressing free speech or suppressing the questioning of articles any member may post here for examination and conversation, why don't you move to one of these other countries who believe likewise? You might fit right in.
:shocked:  :tongue:  :cheesy:

Maybe it is really you who is spreading the misinformation? (Considering the facts just written). You certainly have attempted distorting the reasoning of the post in this situation.

The real question is when will the ignorant get smart. Ignorant means the uninformed. Apparently you do not want opposing views other than your own seen or known, a tactic straight out of the Gestapo book.
Reminding you again this fellows views are 'not that of my own'. But his, the inventor of mRNA technology himself.
Who are 'you' to debunk him??? What are your credentials? Where are you sources?
   :tongue: :cry:

PS  In your haste to attack me, perhaps you missed the video of the man himself. It is posted at the very top/beginning of the article itself. But you had better watch it quickly if you wish to see it, as there are others attempting to suppress free speech as well. Just as President Kennedy warned. The video might not survive the tyranny very long and may soon be taken down. I would not be surprised.
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Kathyp on December 15, 2021, 12:07:45 pm
Quote
Phil, can you stop with the misinformation

There is a difference between false info and different POV or info.  I know this is a hard concept for leftists to absorb, but you have so many examples of things the left has gotten wrong when they labeled it "misinformation" that you should be able to figure it out by now.

It is the history of all science, and medicine in particular, that people have different points of view on things like treatments and causes.  It is the history of totalitarians like the Catholic Church of yesterday, or the leftists of today, that they crush different ideas based on the thing they have come to believe.  "If I believe it, it is the only acceptable truth!".
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Ben Framed on December 15, 2021, 12:52:52 pm
Quote
or the leftists of today, that they crush different ideas based on the thing they have come to believe.  "If I believe it, it is the only acceptable truth!"

So it seems..




Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Ben Framed on December 16, 2021, 05:58:41 am
Quote
There is a difference between false info and different POV or info.

Absolutely!

Quote
It is the history of all science, and medicine in particular, that people have different points of view on things like treatments and causes.

Yes again I agree. In this 'unique' case it is 'the creator of mRNA technology' himself Dr Malone, who has the opposing point of view than that of Dr Ace. lol
:cheesy:

   
It's Dr Aces' point of view vs Dr RW Malones' point of view.
 
The new question is: Who do you trust to be the better informed expert? lol



Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: gww on December 16, 2021, 07:10:14 am
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/08/robert-malone-vaccine-inventor-vaccine-skeptic/619734/
Cheers
gww
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Ben Framed on December 16, 2021, 07:36:50 am
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/08/robert-malone-vaccine-inventor-vaccine-skeptic/619734/
Cheers
gww

That is as a good example of a totally drama queen, smoke and mirror diversional, classic hit piece report as I have read in quiet sometime gww.  :cool: :cool:
Reminds me of the Tesla / Edison drama which is still debated even today.  Of course many say Tesla never got the recognition he deserved though he was the man while Edison got the credit.

But you can plainly see who?s name Elon Musk put on his electric car. It?s not Edison. lol

Thanks for the humor  :grin:
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Acebird on December 16, 2021, 08:00:45 am
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/08/robert-malone-vaccine-inventor-vaccine-skeptic/619734/
Why would you be concerned about some misinformation being taken down?  No one person invents a vaccine.  If you said the wrong persons can get the credit for the development I would believe that.  It happens all the time.  Same with patents.
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Ben Framed on December 16, 2021, 08:12:56 am
Quote
No one person invents a vaccine.  If you said the wrong persons can get the credit for the development I would believe that.  It happens all the time.  Same with patents.

You are right no one person usually, in modern medicine, invents a viral vaccine by them self. But one person can come up with a new idea of technology,  creating a new technology. That is the claim. He says he is the creator of mRNA technology. Naturally he would know how it works. Did you listen to his video in the link I originally provided you, so you could make a more clear judgement of his understanding of this technology, for yourself? I will post it again in case you missed it .

https://twitter.com/i/status/1470759488194248707

Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Acebird on December 16, 2021, 08:59:14 am
This guy claims to be the inventor.  He claims the shy is falling but he gets vaccinated.  I don't listen to what people say.  I take note of what they do.

Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Ben Framed on December 16, 2021, 09:13:06 am
This guy claims to be the inventor.  He claims the shy is falling but he gets vaccinated.  I don't listen to what people say.  I take note of what they do.

Brian I caught that too that he is vaccinated, (actually he used the work created not invented) >a strong word<.
I took into consideration he was speaking in terms of children not adults. Which briings more questions that need answering as well.
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: gww on December 16, 2021, 09:13:57 am
https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-vaccine-cytotoxic/fact-check-covid-19-vaccines-are-not-cytotoxic-idUSL2N2O01XP
Cheers
gww
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Ben Framed on December 16, 2021, 09:22:48 am
https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-vaccine-cytotoxic/fact-check-covid-19-vaccines-are-not-cytotoxic-idUSL2N2O01XP
Cheers
gww

From you article gww, The text in the posts read:
?THE FDA WAS ALERTED MONTHS AGO THAT THE SPIKE PROTEIN IN THE COVID VACCINES ARE CYTOTOXIC. CYTOTOXIC: TOXIC TO CELLS. THE FDA DID NOTHING AND STILL ALLOW PEOPLE TO CONTINUE BEING INJECTED WITH A CYTOTOXIC

I do not think that is what this fellow Dr Malone says? I do know reply 45 according to the source says:  the FDA says it now needs 75 years before releasing Pfizer COVID-19 data to the public.

Do you think the simple word 'why', (a word I do not have the answer too),  is a fair question?





Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: gww on December 16, 2021, 09:47:08 am
If true, I think why is a good question but I also think that the dr's you mention saying that the proper things are not being tracked at all and thinking something is being hidden are not matching positions and wonder which one is it and why they can just pick everything.  I think a study molone cited has now been pulled due to inaccuracies in methodology.  It is not the small bits of truth that are always thrown in a story that makes it a bad story but the inaccuracies that make stories bad.  Most times the good is threw in in the hopes that most will not look deeper and just spread it so the bad can get out too.  You think it is censorship when videos are taken down due to falsehoods being easy to see in them.  I say just cause they take them down that that does not make them more true then they were before taken down.
This is not an argument on should or should not something be taken down but more that taking stuff down does not automatically make what was took down true and therefor needing to be spread.
Cheers
gww

Ps the link I posted says what the heading was for the video with your doctor and what was being discussed.  Are you saying they made an unwarranted leap with their accusation?  It was defiantly about who you are promoting.
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Ben Framed on December 16, 2021, 10:51:02 am
gww I do not have the answers. In the beginning I ask, is Dr Malone accurate or has he flipped his lid. I read the report stating his claim, of himself claiming to be the creator of mRNA while stating his warning to the public of this mRNA technology type injecton on the video in 'relation to children'. I have read your report of, he said, she said, that they said, but never saying he clearly did not create mRNA. After finally getting past the hit part of the column, it did give him credibility of being there in the very beginning. 'If so' he should have basic knowledge of this technology and how it works in the very least. 
I have heard his warnings which by now you have also heard and read as well. All of which will bring him noting but grief and little to no thanks, whether his warnings are true or false. At the present time it is sure to bring him grief and sorrow. Unless he is a nut.       :grin:

The FDA first ask for first 55 years according to sources and now upped it to 75 years before disclosure to the public is the kicker. Here are just two reports of many.....

Nov.18
Search domain reuters.comhttps://www.reuters.com ? legal ? government ? wait-what-fda-wants-55-years-process-foia-request-over-vaccine-data-2021-11-18

Dec. 8
FDA Says It'll Take 75 Years to Fully Release Pfizer ...
Search domain newsmax.comhttps://www.newsmax.com ? health ? health-news ? fda-vaccinedata-pfizer-75-years ? 2021 ?.







Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Kathyp on December 16, 2021, 11:50:34 am
It is because of my age that I did not mind trying the vaccine.  It is because of the questions I would be extremely hesitant to give this to a child.  If I was a healthy 20 something, I probably would take a pass.

One size does not fit all.  In this case, and with the questions yet to be answered, the decision should be left to each person. 

The good thing is that the virus, if it continues on its current path, is mutating down.  I think it is safe to say that the pandemic is over and we have entered the endemic phase.  Stop counting cases and do as we do with other endemic crud.  Count only hospitalization and deaths actually caused by the virus. 

Probably time for people to stand up and engage in a little civil disobedience in a few places...like my state!   :grin:

Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: salvo on December 16, 2021, 07:03:56 pm
Hi Folks,

Where I Live, No One Cares About COVID

Pretty good article. Please click and read:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/12/where-i-live-no-one-cares-about-covid/620958/

Sal


Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Acebird on December 17, 2021, 08:18:51 am
I think it is safe to say that the pandemic is over and we have entered the endemic phase.
Daily average over a thousand and you think it is over?  Collateral damage right?  I fail to understand your long time fear for children when you care so little for lives lost.  The single biggest fear for long term effects is what is put in our food supply.  No worries there.
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Kathyp on December 17, 2021, 11:48:25 am
That's it Ace.  I just don't care.  We all can die and I don't care.  Kids, parents, grandparents...all dead and good riddance.  In fact, we should be happy because reducing the population might reduce that global warming thing that's going to kill us all anyway!!  Wow.  China may have done the planet a favor!!  You found me out  :cry:

Happy now?

Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Acebird on December 18, 2021, 07:48:23 am
Happy now?
I'll always be happy.  What you do are don't do will have no effect on my happiness.  It is who I am.
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Ben Framed on January 16, 2022, 07:14:17 pm
https://youtu.be/MbbXanxbApQ



????


"So, if its going to be used it's, better to focus on those groups who have risk of sever disease and death, rather than as we see some countries are using to give boosters to to kill children which is not right. "
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Kathyp on January 16, 2022, 09:11:04 pm
The fact is, we don't know the long term impact of this kind of vaccine.  We did understand the old kind of vaccines because we understood exposure to disease often leads to immunity or at least reduction of severity of disease.  We understood that all the way back to George Washington and the smallpox scabs.  Exposing people to modified forms of a virus was pretty straightforward.

While the research with the mRNA vaccines has been going on for years, the testing has not.  We are essentially skipping FDA testing in favor of testing the vaccine on the entire population of the world.  That's probably not a problem for adults, especially older adults.  What this will do to children we do not know.  Might do absolutely nothing but I fail to see a reason to take the risk when the COVID risk to otherwise healthy kids is statistically 0.  Family members of mine have chosen to get their kids vaccinated.  Their kids, their choice.  I only hope it is the right one.  The pharmaceutical companies that are providing the vaccines are shielded from damages so there won't be any help there if this goes sideways at some point.
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Acebird on January 17, 2022, 08:02:36 am
While the research with the mRNA vaccines has been going on for years, the testing has not.
You would some how have to be involved with multiple pharma companies and research institutes to make that claim.  You have no clue what has been done and when.  Most of that is protected by patents.

 
Quote
We are essentially skipping FDA testing in favor of testing the vaccine on the entire population of the world.

This just shows your ignorance of how the FDA does its job of oversight.

Quote
I fail to see a reason to take the risk when the COVID risk to otherwise healthy kids is statistically 0.

You should leave statistics to people that understand numbers.
Quote
Family members of mine have chosen to get their kids vaccinated.

There is an immediate risk not to.  There is an economic risk not to.  There is a long term risk of getting the disease and having complications later on in life.  Life is a risk.  Not everyone will make the right choices in life to way out the risk.  Misinformation has made the task even more difficult.
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Acebird on January 17, 2022, 08:15:32 am
While the research with the mRNA vaccines has been going on for years, the testing has not.
You can't do research without doing testing.  They go hand in hand.
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Kathyp on January 17, 2022, 11:54:48 am
Quote
You can't do research without doing testing.  They go hand in hand.

True to a point.  I should have been more specific for you.  HUMAN testing, which had not been done in the way the FDA usually requires.  There was some minor testing in 2015 for influenza and that's about it as far as we know.  There was some military interest and funding early on, but I can find no record of it ever coming to anything.

As an aside that is kind of interesting, the companies now providing the vaccine have already invested a lot of money in mRNA vaccine research over the decades that ended up pretty much on a shelf until now because it was too expensive, didn't work, or there was no demand for it.  That they had it on a shelf might be either fortuitous or suspect depending on where your mind takes you.   :grin:
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Acebird on January 18, 2022, 08:40:11 am
HUMAN testing, which had not been done in the way the FDA usually requires.
I don't know the exact protocols for testing on humans.  I know you have to find volunteers.  Finding volunteers for a virus that would kill you might be a little difficult until  a pandemic actually is at your door step.  Even more difficult for children.
I suspect the reason the vaccines started with the old population is because there would be less of an outcry if something unexpected occurred.  Because, as I said before it would have been much better if they started with a younger group first.
To imply that they didn't do human testing the way the FDA usually requires is misinformation.  What the FDA would require during a pandemic is not quite the same when time is of the essence.  No laws were broken.
The fact is we would have been in a world of hurt, medically, and economically, if the vaccines were not available when they came available.  At this point the resistance to not getting the vaccine is ignorance propagated mostly by misinformation.
The fool, you know the previous president we had is now promoting the vaccines.  Kinda makes his followers look like suckers and losers.  What a surprise!
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Kathyp on January 18, 2022, 10:58:09 am
Quote
To imply that they didn't do human testing the way the FDA usually requires is misinformation.  What the FDA would require during a pandemic is not quite the same when time is of the essence.  No laws were broken.

Nowhere did I say laws were broken.  These vaccines were given emergency use authorization because they had not been tested and approved. 

Quote
I suspect the reason the vaccines started with the old population is because there would be less of an outcry if something unexpected occurred.  Because, as I said before it would have been much better if they started with a younger group first.

Or because the old and those with underlying conditions were the only populations truly at risk from this virus. 

Quote
The fact is we would have been in a world of hurt, medically, and economically, if the vaccines were not available when they came available.  At this point the resistance to not getting the vaccine is ignorance propagated mostly by misinformation

Perhaps.  Perhaps not.  That's an unknowable.  The thing that hurt us was bad government policy that did not change with new information.  We are beginning to find that the numbers given to us of COVID deaths is inaccurate, and we are beginning to count the collateral damage from bad policy.  We won't know the story for years, but it is looking like those of us who pushed back against those policies were on the right side of this.

Quote
The fool, you know the previous president we had is now promoting the vaccines.  Kinda makes his followers look like suckers and losers.  What a surprise!

The highest rate of unvaccinated still remains in the minority communities.  Not those that would be considered Trump types.  That's not surprising since the vaccine was developed and put out quickly by the Trump admin while the leftists, including Heal UP, were telling people not to take a Trump vaccine.  Yeah, there are some fools out there and some of them are currently in power. 
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Acebird on January 19, 2022, 08:10:36 am

Or because the old and those with underlying conditions were the only populations truly at risk from this virus. 

What propaganda sheet are you reading from or are you just making it up.  Even today, people are dying of all ages.  Come back to reality.
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Kathyp on January 19, 2022, 10:41:47 am
Quote
What propaganda sheet are you reading from or are you just making it up.  Even today, people are dying of all ages.  Come back to reality.

While I realize that some use statistics for propaganda, in this case, they are what they are.  I'd wonder what you use for information since this has been known since the beginning of the pandemic.  Younger people can have underlying conditions and yes, young people can die from this.  Healthy younger people and especially children have little to no risk from the virus.  No more risk than from the flu for younger adults and less than from the flu for children.
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Acebird on January 19, 2022, 01:31:19 pm
Healthy older people have about the same risk but there are so few of them.
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Ben Framed on January 19, 2022, 01:46:18 pm
We can add Supreme Court Justice; Sonia Sotomayor to the list of the 'ignorantly' informed, or 'non-informed'.

Adding: If she has been informed, and has knowledge of the truth, she is false, sourcing Yahoo News and many others. Either way, in my opinion she is a poor excuse and example of a United States Supreme Court Justice. The Supreme Court is final place where Americas trust, 'that truth'; and 'The Constitution' should be spoken up for, and 'represented' in America.  Pitiful.... 
By the way, which President nominated her to this position?


Yahoo News: Search domain    https://news.yahoo.com > sotomayor-falsely-claims-100-000-185529971.html
Supreme Court justice Sonia Sotomayor falsely claimed that 100,000 children are in "serious condition" from Covid during oral arguments on the Biden administration's employer vaccine mandate on...




Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Kathyp on January 19, 2022, 02:51:39 pm
Quote
Supreme Court Justice; Sonia Sotomayor to the list of the 'ignorantly' informed, or 'non-informed'.

That was so bad.  You know that her clerks are responsible for putting that all together for her and someone really messed up.
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Ben Framed on January 19, 2022, 08:46:15 pm
Quote
KathyP
You know that her clerks are responsible for putting that all together for her and someone really messed up.

Yes that is a huge problem. Is it not her 'job' and 'responsibility' to do diligent research, (herself), 'along with' her aids, not just rely on one side of a position, or what ever is pitched to her? Shouldn't she seek all avenues of enlightenment, seeking all 'facts'?  Seeking all truth? Wouldn't we, and shouldn't we think it is indeed her responsibility? Isn't the responsibility of a Supreme Court Justice, far to large, far to great to do otherwise, or accept anything less, as in this case?

I would think any case which is important enough, which is large enough, to be brought to the highest court in Our Land deserves nothing less, the American Citizens deserve no less? Shouldn't She seek every avenue available to her, before reaching or making any decision, or making any statement? Especially untrue statements while in the middle of Court hearings? Or reacting on, or relaying on false hear say information from clerks or aids, before checking the facts for herself as she clearly demonstrated she 'did not do' in this instance? That goes for the rest of them as well! Shouldn't The Constitution be first an foremost on their minds? Isn't that part of their OATH TO AMERICA? 

It is my opinion that if she can not be trusted to do so, as in this example; Shouldn't 'she' immediately resign her 'TRUSTED' position? Shouldn't she have resigned already? Without being asked? Do you trust her? Can she ever be trusted again in the capacity of 'Supreme' 'Court' 'Justice'? Where are our leaders from both sides of the isle on this? Where are our leaders from 'any side' of the isle on this? Shouldn't they 'all' be in unisons on this clear example of what can easily be classified as incompetence? Hum




Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: gww on January 20, 2022, 02:05:47 am
Depends ben.

If she was as perfect as you would apparently be, she would double down and say she never makes a mistake.  Has somebody ask her?  That was a lot of typing you did for something that can happen to every one who's every word is being obsessed on.  About along the same tactic that was used on Amy Coney beret for saying having babies is not hard on a woman.
Glad I am not watched so close.  I would give people lots of things to obsess over as I am sure most would, maybe even you.
Cheers
gww
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Acebird on January 20, 2022, 08:06:29 am
The Supreme Court is final place where Americas trust, 'that truth'; and 'The Constitution' should be spoken up for, and 'represented' in America.
Phill your mind is filled with Disney Land.  At what time did America trust the Supreme Court when it's members do not have equal numbers of two parties and men vs. women?
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Acebird on January 20, 2022, 08:18:10 am

Supreme Court justice Sonia Sotomayor falsely claimed that 100,000 children are in "serious condition" from Covid
The article doesn't say "from covid".  It makes a difference if you add words Phil.  That is where the mis information gets generated.
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: gww on January 20, 2022, 09:09:44 am
Quote from ace
Quote
The article doesn't say "from covid".  It makes a difference if you add words Phil.  That is where the mis information gets generated.
ben
If this is true. Maybe you should consider resigning from posting or any vaulted position you hold on this site that might give your postings the impression they might not be incompetent, bla, bla, bla? :wink:
Cheers
gww
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Ben Framed on January 20, 2022, 09:32:15 am
Quote
Quote from ace
Quote
The article doesn't say "from covid".  It makes a difference if you add words Phil.  That is where the mis information gets generated.

Quote
KathyP
I wonder sometimes if you actually read stuff, or just keep spouting your incorrect talking points?

I understand Kathy. I wonder also....

Quote
gww
ben
If this is true. Maybe you should consider resigning from posting or any vaulted position you hold on this site that might give your postings the impression they might not be incompetent, bla, bla, bla? :wink:
Cheers
gww

gww
If you would have 'read' the article 'yourself' instead of taking Ace word for it, 'another Alice in Wonderland liberal' You could have saved yourself a lot of typing and embarrisment. Along with ungrounded and unfounded attacks on me..  :tongue: :cool:

Just once again goes to show liberals can't be trusted for accuracy 'at any level' from the Supreme Court to the debate table.   :wink: lol It seems you would rather instead attack truth.... Nothing new....  :shocked: :cheesy:



Justice Sotomayor Falsely Claims 100,000 Children in ?Serious Condition? from Covid

Yahoo News
Zachary Evans January 7, 2022?


Supreme Court Justice Sonia Sotomayor falsely claimed that 100,000 children are in "serious condition"from Covid during oral arguments on the Biden administration?s employer vaccine mandate on Friday.
"We have hospitals that are almost at full capacity with people severely ill on ventilators. We have over 100,000 children, which we?ve never had before, in serious condition, and many on ventilators," Sotomayor claimed.
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: gww on January 20, 2022, 09:48:55 am
Ben
I did not imply it did or did not happen.  I just implied that I thought it was a bit hypocritical to  have such high standards for others that I am pretty sure you could not do better than.  I also watch what others in power say but try not to hyperventilate unless I see a pattern. 
Back in the old old days, if you were crating tomatoes and dropped one the company would take it out of your pay no matter how many cases you carried successfully before dropping one or even if you dropped fewer then others crating tomatoes.  I had thought we had moved past those days.   
Cheers
gww
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Ben Framed on January 20, 2022, 11:21:09 am
Quote
ben
If this is true. Maybe you should consider resigning from posting or any vaulted position you hold on this site that might give your postings the impression they might not be incompetent, bla, bla, bla? :wink:
Cheers
gww

Quote
Ben
I did not imply it did or did not happen.  I just implied that I thought it was a bit hypocritical to  have such high standards for others that I am pretty sure you could not do better than.

Thanks for clearing that up gww.
I'll bite your hook and I agree, we all humans and can make a mistake from time to time. I am sorry to see you have such a lack of confidence and trust, that I could not do any better than what this 'Justice' has demonstrated she can not be trusted to do, 'seek and relay truth'. Actually I think any Constitutional minded American, who possess a sense of fairness, honesty, and a heart felt desire for justice, along with the quality of not being to lazy to check information for themselves, while being cautious, not readily accepting any bone of information that was thrown to them as being fact but checking the bone for facts, could do a pretty good job...Unlike this Justice has demonstrated.
 
I would 'hope' to think even You, if you were in such a important position would take it seriously in doing a good job, search facts, finding truth, things she has clearly show she can not be 'trusted' to do. At least I would hope you would do what was honest and right, being fair minded, whether you have any confidence in me or not... Including my being a posting member here at beemaster for that matter, regardless of position... We are not speaking of the dog catcher, the local justice of the peace, 'though important'. Or any other official or any other 'public servant', though each public servant should strive for fairness. However; we are speaking one of our "Supreme Court Justices" of the highest court in our land!.  Shouldn't A Justice of The Supreme Court, 'the' person who totes the heaviest load of responsibility in our court system, be held to the highest standards of all?

Phillip
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Kathyp on January 20, 2022, 01:40:47 pm
Quote
About along the same tactic that was used on Amy Coney beret for saying having babies is not hard on a woman.

One was a huge mistake that should not have been made...no matter how she got those numbers.  The other is an opinion.  Berrett is probably not making constitutional decisions based on her opinion of the ease of childbirth.  Sotomayor was using wildly wrong numbers in an argument in the SCOTUS.

Quote
Phill your mind is filled with Disney Land.  At what time did America trust the Supreme Court when it's members do not have equal numbers of two parties and men vs. women?

I'm not sure why party or gender is relevant.  They have one job and that is to judge things against that law.  What IS interesting is that when a nominee says they will follow the law (Constitution) the left loses its mind.  Also interesting that you didn't mention race since that is where you usually go.  I get it.  The black guy on the court doesn't have his mind right so he doesn't count.
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: gww on January 20, 2022, 01:57:04 pm
Ben
Quote
I am sorry to see you have such a lack of confidence and trust, that I could not do any better than what this 'Justice' has demonstrated she can not be trusted to do, 'seek and relay truth'.
Not to belabor a point but:
I have seen many links and videos' you have posted here that are misleading and if you are called on it you say "I was just asking".  You are correct, I would not have faith in your supposed excellent investigatory skills to get things right. That does not mean that I am mad of your position here. I do not have such high standards.
Cheers
gww
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: gww on January 20, 2022, 02:07:44 pm
Kathy
Amy was actually doing the same thing as Soto relating to a case before them and the news was all over her for it.  The problem is that for every one on one side, one can be found on the other.  Not saying it should not be reported but saying looking for over all patterns is more realistic thing to be basing decisions on then little gaffs. 
If it was not so much work we could make a game out of finding all the gaffs people we don't like make and spend all our time showing them to each other.
I know I am guilty of it.
Cheers
gww
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Kathyp on January 20, 2022, 02:47:12 pm
So petitioner points out that in all 50 states, you can terminate parental rights by relinquishing a child after abortion [Ed. note: She misspoke; she meant birth], and I think the shortest period might be 48 hours if I?m remembering the data correctly. It seems to me, seen in that light, both Roe and Casey emphasize the burdens of parenting. And insofar as you and many of your amici focus on the ways in which forced parenting, forced motherhood would hinder women?s access to the workplace, and to equal opportunities, it?s also focused on the consequences of parenting and the obligations of motherhood that flow from pregnancy?why don?t the safe haven laws take care of that problem? It seems to me that it focuses the burden much more narrowly. There is without question an infringement on bodily autonomy, for which we have another context like vaccines. However, it doesn?t seem to me to follow that pregnancy and then parenthood are all part of the same burden, and so it seems to me that the choice, more focused, would be between, say, the ability to get an abortion at 23 weeks, or the state requiring the woman to go 15, 16 weeks more, and then terminate parental rights at the conclusion. Why didn?t you address the safe haven laws, and why don?t they matter?

I believe the above is the question she was asking the pro-Roe lawyer to answer.  It in no way compares to a Justice quoting wildly wrong numbers in her questioning.

In this case it's not about sides, but about someone being so wrong on something they might otherwise use in making a decision.
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: gww on January 20, 2022, 03:47:32 pm
Kathy
https://www.colorado.edu/today/2021/09/08/study-banning-abortion-would-boost-maternal-mortality-double-digits
I guess it is perspective but that was not really the point I was making at any rate.  I can't see why all those other smart judges did not point out the mistake though.  I could have just as easily used senator marshall's asking what fouci's pay was even though it is public.   Neither was really the point I was making.
The point is that mistakes in oral arguments could happen with little foul as people are fallible even doing their best.  You are welcome to hang your hat on one thing and not look at the whole picture and no one can stop you.  I don't have to respect that particular trait in others though.
Like I said, I do it too.  Wish I was a bit better but it is easy to be out of line picky toward those I don't like and much more forgiving to those I do.  Nature of the beast.  I know lots of smart people who say stupid things every now and again.
Cheers
gww
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Ben Framed on January 20, 2022, 03:57:13 pm
Ben
Quote
I am sorry to see you have such a lack of confidence and trust, that I could not do any better than what this 'Justice' has demonstrated she can not be trusted to do, 'seek and relay truth'.
Not to belabor a point but:
I have seen many links and videos' you have posted here that are misleading and if you are called on it you say "I was just asking".  You are correct, I would not have faith in your supposed excellent investigatory skills to get things right. That does not mean that I am mad of your position here. I do not have such high standards.
Cheers
gww

>Not to belabor a point but:<

Why not, you usually do, why not this time?  :shocked:

Yes I have often ask as much, (Is this true?) when posting a video which may be interesting enough 'to strike up conversation' here in the Coffeehouse. Such as the topic "The lethal Kangaroo". I did not state (this is true), a big difference..  This lady, A Supreme Court Justice falsely mislead, was untrue, using false data as 'facts', and in the Supreme Court 'of all places', and her a Supreme Court Justice, 'of all things', ('supposedly' a seeker of truth).  Hum....
 
I expected and was confident, that even you would not go along with that, apparently I was again wrong, it seems you will excuse her no matter what, and attack me for telling you, while casting truth and responsibility aside. Therefore I have just lost my confidence in you as well  :shocked: :grin:

From this point on, If Biden were to nominate you, (and he could do worse, and probably would do worse), I would have to speak up!  :grin:  :tongue:  :cheesy:

Phillip


Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: gww on January 20, 2022, 05:01:25 pm
ben
Quote
From this point on, If Biden were to nominate you, (and he could do worse, and probably would do worse), I would have to speak up!
You need not worry cause I am much too selfish to ever do any such job.  I have, the gods honest, best job in the world.  It is so good I feel guilty that every one is not in the same boat.  It is called retirement.  From the bottom of my heart, I hope you experience my job and get as much enjoyment out of it as I do.
Cheers
gww
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Ben Framed on January 20, 2022, 05:12:49 pm
ben
Quote
From this point on, If Biden were to nominate you, (and he could do worse, and probably would do worse), I would have to speak up!
You need not worry cause I am much too selfish to ever do any such job.  I have, the gods honest, best job in the world.  It is so good I feel guilty that every one is not in the same boat.  It is called retirement.  From the bottom of my heart, I hope you experience my job and get as much enjoyment out of it as I do.
Cheers
gww


Congratulation on you retirement gww. I have no doubt but that you have earned it and I'm happy to hear you are enjoying it! Thanks for the heart felt well wishes! I really appreciate it, even though we sit on separate sides of the debating table,,, (from time to time).... 

Cheers back to you,

Phillip
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Kathyp on January 20, 2022, 06:48:53 pm
Quote
The point is that mistakes in oral arguments could happen with little foul as people are fallible even doing their best.

Of course they can.  It's just that that one was huge and one must wonder where her info came from.  I think it is fair to ask as their decisions seem to have the power of law.

There is no way to know what the outcome of banning abortion would be, but I don't think there are many places that would ban it anyway.  If some places do, there are other options.  Ending Roe would not ban abortions.  It would send the decisions about abortion back to the states where it should be.  Even many who like legal abortion think Roe is bad law.

In the early days, when abortion was legalized, there were few birth control options and they were not as reliable.  Now we have gazillions of options from short to long term and they are very reliable. If you don't want to get pregnant, you don't have to and you don't even have to give up sex although that is the sure way to not get pregnant.
  If killing a baby is morally wrong, then it is morally wrong.  That a woman or a family might be inconvenienced by a pregnancy, or might make a decision that caused her damage, is not a part of the calculation.  I can think of at least one person that if I had killed them my life would have been easier.  It's not legal so I didn't.  Why is it OK to kill a baby as a matter of convenience?


Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Acebird on January 21, 2022, 08:51:01 am
First of all the religious zealots perceive birth control as abortion anyway.  If they succeed in changing the laws birth control will be next.
The irony is the religious zealots love the unborn baby but hate the child as it matures into adulthood.  If abortion is turned around there will be more of the hated to support through life.  There will more inmates to support.  And it goes without saying there will be much more poverty.  Now the next question is whether the impoverished will be allowed to vote.  That is a big one.
Without changing any laws this morality issue could be solved very easily.  If these religious zealots would simply adopt the unwanted babies and give them a good home the amount of terminate pregnancies would drastically reduce.  Then the only moral issue would be cases of life of mother vs. child and rape.
But as always "Christians" cry morality when it suits them.
We've been watching a series on Hulu "Handmaids Tail".  They have got the inconsistencies of organized religion nailed to a tee.
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Acebird on January 21, 2022, 08:54:10 am
If you don't want to get pregnant, you don't have to and you don't even have to give up sex although that is the sure way to not get pregnant.
So is becoming gay.
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Ben Framed on January 21, 2022, 02:21:25 pm
Quote
Ben Framed Reply #45 on: December 10, 2021, 07:25:20 am ?

True or false? FDA says it now needs 75 years before releasing Pfizer COVID-19 data to the public. Apparently the FDA wishes to keep citizens ignorant of the facts? If this is true what is the big secrets?

So to answer your question Ace:  >When will the ignorant get smart?<
Answer: 75 years; maybe..

UPDATE:
It seems we will not have to wait 75 years after all thanks to a major court ruling.. 

Rutgers

Paramount Importance: Judge orders FDA to hasten release of Pfizer vaccine docs
By Jenna Greene
Jan 7, 2022
Score one for transparency.

"A federal judge in Texas on Thursday ordered the Food and Drug Administration to make public the data it relied on to license Pfizer's COVID-19 vaccine, imposing a dramatically accelerated schedule that should result in the release of all information within about eight months.

That's roughly 75 years and four months faster than the FDA said it could take to complete a Freedom of Information Act request by a group of doctors and scientists seeking an estimated 450,000 pages of material about the vaccine."


A short list of many, whom it seems are now, rapidly changing their tunes ....  Coincidental?  You tell me....


https://news.yahoo.com/virginia-universities-lift-vaccine-mandates-160032107.html

https://m.republicworld.com/world-news/global-event-news/who-urges-nations-to-lift-travel-bans-and-not-mandate-proof-of-vaccination-for-entry-articleshow.html

https://www.kcentv.com/article/news/nation-world/starbucks-drops-vaccine-mandate-workers/507-dd43bddc-8392-4859-8ac8-46f342601d6a

https://goldenageofgaia.com/2022/01/19/england-ending-all-covid-passports-mask-mandates-work-restrictions/

https://www.esquireme.com/news/53683-mask-off-8-countries-that-have-removed-their-mask-mandates
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Kathyp on January 21, 2022, 09:21:34 pm
Quote
First of all the religious zealots perceive birth control as abortion anyway.  If they succeed in changing the laws birth control will be next.
The irony is the religious zealots love the unborn baby but hate the child as it matures into adulthood.  If abortion is turned around there will be more of the hated to support through life.  There will more inmates to support.  And it goes without saying there will be much more poverty.  Now the next question is whether the impoverished will be allowed to vote.  That is a big one.
Without changing any laws this morality issue could be solved very easily.  If these religious zealots would simply adopt the unwanted babies and give them a good home the amount of terminate pregnancies would drastically reduce.  Then the only moral issue would be cases of life of mother vs. child and rape.
But as always "Christians" cry morality when it suits them.
We've been watching a series on Hulu "Handmaids Tail".  They have got the inconsistencies of organized religion nailed to a tee.

I know a lot of people who are Christians, but none fit your description.  Again, we must wonder where you get the info you use to form your opinions. 
I DO know a number of Christian families who have adopted.  My neighbors adopted 2 children.  I do not have stats, but if you can show that those who claim to be Christians adopt at a lower rate than others, I'd be interested in that info.  In fact, there are not enough infants available for all who would like to adopt.

There are still a few Catholics who don't like BC and many Muslims who won't use it.  I don't know of any Catholics who consider BC abortion though.  I think you are confusing birth control with using medications to end a pregnancy.  While the drugs might be the same, the result is not.

Poverty is not a disease.  Plenty of us have experienced it.  Poverty does not need to = crime.  That you think it does is interesting.  Also interesting that you think killing babies is an acceptable way to stop the things you think might happen.  We have had leaders in the world that thought that way.  It didn't end well. 

You don't seem to like Christians.  I don't know how you feel about other religions.  You might consider asking yourself what keeps a society together?

Quote
One of the foremost constitutional theorists of the founding generation, John Adams, observed, ?Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious People. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.?1 He wasn?t the only Founding Father to hold this view. Indeed, James Madison wrote that our Constitution requires ?sufficient virtue among men for self-government,? otherwise, ?nothing less than the chains of despotism can restrain them from destroying and devouring one another.?2

you have a choice and countries like Russia and China prove it.  You can have a shared moral cohesion which would be based on some kind of religious underpinning, or you can have a controlling government.  You don't get both and that's why Communist countries try to kill off any religious beliefs.  They will not share power over the people.  Having a shared basis does not mean that everyone has to believe the say or be of the same religion, but it does mean that a society has to have certain moral values that are open for debate.

You may not see the future you are pushing, but our kids and grandkids will...unfortunately. 

Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Acebird on January 22, 2022, 08:07:49 am
Wow!  Have you forgotten that the Europeans left for America to get freedom from religion and the United States is based on separation of church and state?
United States is not based on religion it is based on freedom of religion including its non existence.
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: BeeMaster2 on January 22, 2022, 08:17:59 am
Ace,
You sure can twist things around. They left Europe to get away from religious persecution not religion. Many countries mandated one religion. If you did not follow, you were persecuted. Our founding fathers wanted to make sure we can serve any religion that we wanted. They never intended to have no religion in schools or government. They always prayed at the beginning of their meetings for god?s guidance.
Jim Altmiller
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Ben Framed on January 22, 2022, 10:30:30 am
Wow!  Have you forgotten that the Europeans left for America to get freedom from religion and the United States is based on separation of church and state?
United States is not based on religion it is based on freedom of religion including its non existence.

Ace,
You sure can twist things around. They left Europe to get away from religious persecution not religion. Many countries mandated one religion. If you did not follow, you were persecuted. Our founding fathers wanted to make sure we can serve any religion that we wanted. They never intended to have no religion in schools or government. They always prayed at the beginning of their meetings for god?s guidance.
Jim Altmiller

BeeMaster2
"Many countries mandated one religion. If you did not follow, you were persecuted. Our founding fathers wanted to make sure we can serve any religion that we wanted."

True and accurate, the primary (first) pilgrims/settlers/immigrants etc were from England. Seeking to be shed of not only religious tyranny but tyranny in any disguise. Immigrants from other European Countries came later and are still coming, not only from Europe, but from all over the world. I really doubt that there are many full blooded English Lineage folks here in America now, full blooded English descendants from those days. The founders were kind to include all citizens, joint heirs if you will, included in and under the protection of our Constitution. Including all rights and liberties, freedoms and privileges afforded by those founders through their faith, demonstrated and reflected through that document. Regardless of which, (quoting Ace), European country that person or persons family might immigrate from.

It is obvious, somewhere we as a Nation, dropped the ball in educating later immigrants of the value, and importance of that document. Apparently we have dropped the ball in educating our children, and immigrants of the founders and their families, who formed and raised that document. As history clearly points out, many and most were Christian?s whether Ace likes it or not. Whether he likes this country of not for that matter.

History of those people, their beliefs and sacrifices, hardships endured, along with their words of encouragement to (Us Even Today), To We The People. But sadly these historical facts are becoming more and more disregarded and disrespected, or hidden, ignored, or maybe even despised by many? Sad isn?t it.   

BeeMaster2
"They never intended to have no religion in schools or government. [/b]They always prayed at the beginning of their meetings for god?s guidance."

Very true Jim. Who knows, maybe many of the generation of Ace listened to the words of The Beetles song (Imagine) to many times; While experiencing Jo Jos California grass? Later becoming Professors in our Colleges and Institutions? Hard to imagine?

But the fact is, the school house and the church house was the one and same building. Serving as a school house during the week and a Sunday School and Church on Sunday. The two were inter-twined. Most, if not all of these Church/School buildings had a steeple on top with a Cross representing a Christian Church  on the very top of that same steeple for all to see. The children's handy work of school from the week was there for all to see (who attended) on Sunday and evidence of our Belief in God were visually seen in that very same building for the children to see throughout the week.
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Kathyp on January 22, 2022, 12:38:27 pm
Quote
Wow!  Have you forgotten that the Europeans left for America to get freedom from religion and the United States is based on separation of church and state?
United States is not based on religion it is based on freedom of religion including its non existence.

Most of what you write is historically incorrect and the very words of the founders prove you wrong.   How you worship or if you choose not to worship has nothing to do with the foundation of the country or the need for that foundation. 

The foundation of this country is based on Judeo-Christian principles.  That's not a religion, but it is a set of standards and among those standards is personal choice.  Because we were designed to have the least amount of federal government possible and the most personal choice, there had to be a behavioral moderator.  That moderator has been shared moral standards and a constitution that is the law.  It is gone now because morality has become relative and the law is not followed by the federal government.  Relative standards are no standards. 
The only solution to what is now a crumbling society is government.  Government already ignores the existing laws and people are habituated to allowing them to do this.

This was what the founders warned about.  It is why Adams said that our system was only suitable for a moral and religious people. 
We did something unique in this country in that we trusted people to self-regulate based on a shared foundational belief system.  To that extent, we really were formed as a Christian nation understanding that Christianity is not a religion but that all Christian sects shared basic behavioral modifiers. 

Welcome to the Great Reset.  They played the long game and we didn't even see it coming even though they told us what they were doing.
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Acebird on January 23, 2022, 09:50:05 am
The foundation of this country is based on Judeo-Christian principles.
If that were true we wouldn't have massacred the Indians and stolen their land.  We wouldn't have owned slaves.  We wouldn't have killed our own people.  We wouldn't have entered into any wars.  And last but not least we wouldn't have a government with members that are predominantly liars, fornicators and cheats.
This country was formed from aristocratic Europeans who brought most of the problems of Europe to America.  The Indians lived by religious principles.  We don't and never have.
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Acebird on January 23, 2022, 10:27:43 am
the primary (first) pilgrims/settlers/immigrants etc were from England.
I guess we will forget about Christopher Columbus, the Spaniards, the French, and the Dutch.  Phil, you reading Kathy's history book?
Belief and Praying to a supreme being is not a Christian principal.  It takes an enormous investment to fund formal education.  Catholics and Jews had the wealth to take on such and endeavor.  When the country was formed it had no previsions for education.  And the way it was formed was based on the population being ignorant.  The population lived on subsistent farming so it was quite a hurdle to take children out of the fields to learn to read and write.  Once the power of education was realized it was a huge battle to give it up to the female sector of the population. (Another inequality, but common among organized religion vs. Christian principal.)
When the government took over education and created the public school system there was no religion associated with it.  And there still isn't today.  What religion would they pick in the first place?
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Kathyp on January 23, 2022, 12:55:45 pm
Quote
If that were true we wouldn't have massacred the Indians and stolen their land.  We wouldn't have owned slaves.  We wouldn't have killed our own people.  We wouldn't have entered into any wars.  And last but not least we wouldn't have a government with members that are predominantly liars, fornicators and cheats.
This country was formed from aristocratic Europeans who brought most of the problems of Europe to America.  The Indians lived by religious principles.  We don't and never have.

There were social norms that were certainly not Christian.  That's a discussion for another time.  That you think the people who lived here before the Europeans came were all peaceful is cute.  Some were, many were not. they killed each other, stole land, and had slaves.  This was the state of the world at that time and the normal behavior of all peoples at that time.  Still is if they are left to themselves.

Quote
I guess we will forget about Christopher Columbus, the Spaniards, the French, and the Dutch.

Columbus never came here.  Most of the settlers north of what is now Mexico were European.  The Spanish, and Portugees were more into central America and South America.  All countries spread exploration farther, later.

Quote
Belief and Praying to a supreme being is not a Christian principal.  It takes an enormous investment to fund formal education.  Catholics and Jews had the wealth to take on such and endeavor.  When the country was formed it had no previsions for education.  And the way it was formed was based on the population being ignorant.  The population lived on subsistent farming so it was quite a hurdle to take children out of the fields to learn to read and write.  Once the power of education was realized it was a huge battle to give it up to the female sector of the population. (Another inequality, but common among organized religion vs. Christian principal.)
When the government took over education and created the public school system there was no religion associated with it.  And there still isn't today.  What religion would they pick in the first place?

Again you show your ignorance of history.  You are correct that Belief and Praying are not strictly Christian behaviors, but that has nothing to do with what we are talking about. 

The power of education was not realized.  It was known.  The first public education in the US was done by religious leaders.  Most education was done in the home.  Even when organized public education came it came from community organization of schools and community hiring of teachers.  In this country, emphasis on basic education was far more the norm than in most other countries. Because we did not have a class or cast system, we did not have people who would not need to know how to read and write.  Everyone was expected to be productive in some way, so at least basic education was important.

Quote
Once the power of education was realized it was a huge battle to give it up to the female sector of the population. (Another inequality, but common among organized religion vs. Christian principal.)
When the government took over education and created the public school system there was no religion associated with it.  And there still isn't today.  What religion would they pick in the first place?

Again you confuse societal norms with religion.  Most countries did not care that most women were educated and it was not about relgion.  It was about women being wives and mothers...and believe it or not, that thinking lasted well into the 20th century among many.  'Why waste money going to college when you are going to get married, have children, and stay home?'  One could make the argument that we are not better off for women NOT being home with thier children, but again, an argument for another day.


You are incorrect that there was no religion associated with public schools.  In many schools, the bible was used for reading lessons.  Religious lessons from the bible were used for many reasons, among them, to teach morality.  Until fairly recently, the 10 commandments could be found posted in public schools.  In my lifetime, school used to be opened with prayer.  We could make the argument that schools were safer and able to teach more things to more kids than what we have today.

I am not sure how you define "A religion".  You do understand that Christianity is not "A religion"?  And the basis for our country being Judeo-Christian encompasses a large part of the belief systems of the world in one way or another. 




Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Ben Framed on January 23, 2022, 02:05:10 pm
Quote
Ben Framed
the primary (first) pilgrims/settlers/immigrants etc were from England.

Quote
Acebird
I guess we will forget about Christopher Columbus, the Spaniards, the French, and the Dutch. 

Phil, you reading Kathy's history book?

Brian I did not 'say' others 'did not' settle here, I said the 'primary' settlers were from
England. The Thirteen Colonies were British Colonies.. I don't recall seeing anything but English names when it comes to founding Fathers listed. Such as names of the Declaration of Independence or The Constitution. I reserve the right to be corrected. Remember; 'Primary' is the key-word Brian primary settlers and founders ...

A little reminder and just for fun;
On August 3, 1492, Columbus an 'Italian', sailing 'in representation' for the Country Spain sailed in a group of three ships, the Nina, the Pinta and the Santa Maria. On October 12, the ships made landfall. He thought he was, or hoped to be in the East Indies, but instead was on one of the 'Bahamian islands', 'likely San Salvador.' Not, part of the USA then or now a I recall....
You might find it interesting that, Columbus, the explorers first name according to Websters' Dictionary, (Christopher) means 'bearer of Christ' The name Christopher is derived from the Greek word Christ 'foros, meaning "bearer of Christ." It is composed of two Greek elements Christ's (Christ) and phero (to bear, carry). ... Origin: Christopher is an English name of Greek origin meaning "bearer of Christ.

Now back to the United States or what would later become the United States and its thirteen 'British' colonies, the place where we gained our independence and freedom, our constitution, and place where our Country was established etc... (The matter of our evolved discussion and its Constitution along with our Judeo-Christian base).
The first established foothold here was 'English', which later was to be know as part of 'New England' and located Jamestown On December 6, 1606, the journey to Virginia began on three ships: the Susan Constant, the Godspeed, and the Discovery. In 1607, 104 'English' men and boys arrived in North America to start a settlement.  On May 13 they picked Jamestown, Virginia for their settlement, which was named after their King, James I. James I of 'England' The settlement became the 'first' permanent English settlement in North America. And yes Brian, they built a Church there; Colony secretary William Strachey had written that "a pretty chapel" stood "in the middest" of the fort.

The first 'English' colony in, Plymouth Colony, 'New England' was established in 1620 by 'Puritan' Pilgrims 'fleeing' 'religious' 'persecution' from 'England'; Not 'Spain', or 'France', 'New England' was named by the people who primarily settled those 13 colonies Brian. Folks from 'ENGLAND'

Yes; a French colony was established earlier in 1604 two years prior on Saint Croix 'Island', 'Maine' but sadly it had failed. The French were VERY 'successful' in settling what is now Canada and the Louisiana Territory. The Spaniards were 'successful' in settling the Spanish speaking countries South of us.

The Dutch did settle in the area they named New Amsterdam in 1624, establishing a settlement with 30 families on present-day Manhattan. Much like English colonists in Virginia, however, the Dutch settlers did not take much of an interest in agriculture, and focused on the more lucrative fur trade.

Spain did establish a colony in Florida but was never more than a backwater region for Spain and served primarily as a strategic buffer between Mexico (New Spain) and had nothing to do with with our Constitution or the 13 colonies. Or any influence on the founding foundation of our country. As Britain took possession of Florida as part of the agreements ending the Seven Years' War in 1763, and the Spanish population largely emigrated to Cuba.

The French were successful in establishing the Louisiana territory which is now part of The United States. However; We did not purchase that territory until after our Independence from England and the Constitution had already been established, and written (September 17, 1787) so the french did not help establish our Constitution by representation either, bummer. In fact it was not until 1803 that the Louisiana Purchase Start date begin.

All Thirteen Colonies, that our country came from were known as the 'Thirteen 'British' Colonies' and where America began...


Phillip
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Ben Framed on February 19, 2022, 11:35:00 am
Bill Gates says Omicron "sadly"
spreads immunity faster than vaccines

Microsoft co-founder Bill Gates said the Covid-19 Omicron variant had 'outpaced' world vaccine drives in spreading immunity, urging health officials around the globe to respond more quickly to the "next" pandemic.
 
Does this mean that 'you' now have 'permission; (haa)', once again to discuss this subject? Or is it this still taboo to you/we 'peasants'; a subject 'only' to be discussed by the described, 'elites'? Please advise.....
Is the 1st amendment once again recognized by and for all American Citizens?  Hummm






Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Ben Framed on April 20, 2022, 11:37:58 pm
A TOTAL SHAM:
Liz calls out CNN for literally proving the Left?s science is fake. Is she correct?


https://youtu.be/CxRiGoAZpQU
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Ben Framed on May 18, 2022, 04:32:03 pm
I am bumping this per renewed interest of discussion on another topic.
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: gww on May 18, 2022, 07:19:57 pm
Of course you are.  No surprise there.
Cheers
gww
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Ben Framed on May 18, 2022, 08:15:16 pm
Of course you are.  No surprise there.
Cheers
gww

I am happy you approve..
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Acebird on May 19, 2022, 08:55:34 am
A TOTAL SHAM:
Liz calls out CNN for literally proving the Left?s science is fake. Is she correct?
No, she is showing her stupidity.
Answwer one question Phil:  Why did Trump get vaccinated after having covid?
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Acebird on May 19, 2022, 08:57:28 am
I am bumping this per renewed interest of discussion on another topic.
You are beating a dead horse and showing your ignorance.  Although well within the topic.
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Ben Framed on May 19, 2022, 09:07:26 am
I am bumping this per renewed interest of discussion on another topic.
You are beating a dead horse and showing your ignorance.  Although well within the topic.

On the contrary, If anyone is showing their ignorance that would be you. I bumped this topic especially with you in mind since you decided to take the subject up one again on another topic concerning Ukraine and Rand Paul. Apparently you haven?t gotten covid iout of your system. You don?t have to thank me, my complements. lol  :tongue:
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Ben Framed on May 19, 2022, 09:39:50 am
A TOTAL SHAM:
Liz calls out CNN for literally proving the Left?s science is fake. Is she correct?
No, she is showing her stupidity.
Answwer one question Phil:  Why did Trump get vaccinated after having covid?


To be clear. displayed on the video: 
A TOTAL SHAM:
Liz calls out CNN for literally proving the Left?s science is fake
; is the display on the heading of the video.

>No, she is showing her stupidity.

Is she?
I will ask you a question. Why did so many including many in the White House take the vaccination plus booster after booster and still get covid?
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Acebird on May 20, 2022, 09:10:35 am
I will ask you a question. Why did so many including many in the White House take the vaccination plus booster after booster and still get covid?
Because the vaccine increases you chances of living through covid.  It does not prevent you from getting a mutation of the covid virus.  Had the world been able to get the new tech vaccine the virus would not be able to mutate.  Now the virus is the China virus because like many in the US they refuse to help themselves by accepting help from the west.  So far the mutations are less deadly but there is no guarantee this will continue.  Not getting vaccinated keeps the deadly version alive with a possibility of it getting worse.  So do you want to be smart or do you want to be ignorant?
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Ben Framed on May 20, 2022, 09:20:49 am
Who knows Ace, with your reasoning, if we get 8 boosters we might not even catch a cold?   :wink: After you!  lol. Okay  Even when the inspector general of WHO tells you, you still won't believe it. As in reply 73. I have come to the conclusion you had rather argue than debate...  I would rather believe you are neither unformed or ignorant but  just love to argue for the sake of arguing.  But honestly, Im beginning to wonder!   :shocked: :cheesy: :wink:


Even so still luv you Ace!  :grin:
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Kathyp on May 20, 2022, 11:45:49 am
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Because the vaccine increases you chances of living through covid.  It does not prevent you from getting a mutation of the covid virus.  Had the world been able to get the new tech vaccine the virus would not be able to mutate.  Now the virus is the China virus because like many in the US they refuse to help themselves by accepting help from the west.  So far the mutations are less deadly but there is no guarantee this will continue.  Not getting vaccinated keeps the deadly version alive with a possibility of it getting worse.  So do you want to be smart or do you want to be ignorant?

You are a little right and a lot wrong.  The vaccine was good for a segment of the population.  Most of the population was never at serious risk from the virus and we know this from multiple studies around the world.  Children were the least likely to have any complications from the virus.

At this point, pushing the vaccines is about profit, not need.  You constantly go on about greedy corporations and you have an example right in front of you.

Not getting vaccinated does not keep the deadly version alive.  It has already burned through.  This virus, as with most, has mutated down.  We also have studies showing that natural immunity from these versions gives better coverage than vaccines. 
It is highly unlikly that there will ever be a vaccine that will cover this virus.  For a small segment of the population, the vaccine might be worth the small amount of help it offers in the same way the flu vaccine offers a small amount of help to some each year.

The common cold is caused by various coronaviruses.  People have wanted to cure the common cold forever.  If they can't do that, they are not going to cure this version of the virus by repeated vaccines that have marginal efficacy. 

Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Acebird on May 20, 2022, 02:28:04 pm
Children were the least likely to have any complications from the virus.
Some died.  As a rule the younger you are the less developed your immune system is which is why breast milk is so much better then formula.  There should not be a formula crisis but in this country there is.

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At this point, pushing the vaccines is about profit, not need.
I will grant you that there is some of that.  The present administration is offering the vaccine at no cost so at least the people without means are not getting hosed.

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Not getting vaccinated does not keep the deadly version alive.  It has already burned through.

It sure does otherwise China would not be affected.
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We also have studies showing that natural immunity from these versions gives better coverage than vaccines. 
Any dame fool can do a study, doesn't mean its conclusions are sound.
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The common cold is caused by various coronaviruses.  People have wanted to cure the common cold forever.
Vaccines are after the fact.  You can't create a vaccine for something that doesn't exist yet.
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Kathyp on May 20, 2022, 07:28:23 pm
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Some died.  As a rule the younger you are the less developed your immune system is which is why breast milk is so much better then formula.  There should not be a formula crisis but in this country there is.

 Over 75% of the documented deaths in children occurred among those with other medical issues like cancer.  For them, the benefit outweighed the potential risk of a vaccine that had not been tested, much less tested in children. 
The number of children overall who have died from COVID is statistically 0. 
We do not know the vaccine injury rate for children.  We do know that most other countries are not pushing the vaccine on young kids unless they have underlying conditions. 

I am OK with you putting an untested vaccine that is not needed into your child.  That is your choice and you have to live with the consequences. 

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I will grant you that there is some of that.  The present administration is offering the vaccine at no cost so at least the people without means are not getting hosed.

No, but the taxpayer is.  + these companies can't be sued so they have nothing to lose if this goes sideways.  They have everything to gain by pushing it.

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It sure does otherwise China would not be affected.

that makes no sense.  1st we don't really know what's going on in China and 2nd they tried to keep everyone locked up so that they didn't get the virus.  If they (and we) had done more like Sweden and taken care of the vulnerable while letting everyone else get on with it, we'd all be in a better place.

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Any dame fool can do a study, doesn't mean its conclusions are sound.

Silly me.  I forgot that we only follow the science that we agree with!  Sorry.

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Vaccines are after the fact.  You can't create a vaccine for something that doesn't exist yet.

Pretty sure the common cold exists.  Pretty sure they have IDed several coronaviruses that are responsible.  Want to try that again?
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Acebird on May 21, 2022, 09:32:24 am
the benefit outweighed the potential risk of a vaccine that had not been tested, much less tested in children.

Tests were required for FDA approval so you statement is false.
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We do not know the vaccine injury rate for children.
And never will because the TESTS did not show injuries in significant numbers.

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No, but the taxpayer is.  + these companies can't be sued so they have nothing to lose if this goes sideways.  They have everything to gain by pushing it.
  Well that is corporate America.  Can only be controlled by regulation.

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1st we don't really know what's going on in China
Apparently you don't.
 
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and 2nd they tried to keep everyone locked up so that they didn't get the virus.

They locked people up when there is an outbreak to prevent it from spreading.  This does work at a heck of a cost.
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If they (and we) had done more like Sweden and taken care of the vulnerable while letting everyone else get on with it, we'd all be in a better place.
Easy to say when you are using a crystal ball.  I prefer to follow people that have knowledge, experience and science.  What Sweden did would work for states like Utah, Wyoming and the like.  If both these states lost their entire population it would be a tragedy but it would not have made a significant difference to this country.

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I forgot that we only follow the science that we agree with!

Here again a study doesn't make it science.

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Pretty sure they have IDed several coronaviruses that are responsible. 
No kidding!  And the vaccines were made to counter act them.  They can't make a vaccine for something that doesn't exist without guessing.  Guessing is what is done for the flu vaccines and would be even worse for the common cold.  What is remarkable for the covid vaccine is the time it took from identifying the corona virus to the distribution of a vaccine that worked.  The US dodged a huge bullet.  I don't think that same luck will happen with the Putin war unless the reunification of Europe with the US puts Putin down.
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Kathyp on May 21, 2022, 02:43:52 pm
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Tests were required for FDA approval so you statement is false.

When a new drug or vaccine comes along it takes years for the FDA to approve because the testing process takes years.  This was not done in this case.  There had been adult testing long ago before the mRNA vaccine was shelved, but not in children.  Before it was released to children in this case, there was a very little testing done for kids with this vaccine and no long term evaluation.  They did some kids, the kids didn't die, and the vaccine was approved.

Even as this was happening, one of the developers of the mRNA vaccine type was warning that this should not be given to young kids because of the unknowns about this kind of vaccine and the long term implications. 

So again, you make your choice, but with almost no risk to children from this virus, I don't see the upside to experimenting on them. 

Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Acebird on May 22, 2022, 08:58:26 am
They did some kids, the kids didn't die, and the vaccine was approved.
Previously they did not give the vaccine to kids and some died so I know what risks I would take with my kids.  Die now or worry about maybe something bad might happen...
No one was forced to take the vaccine even though it would have been a better outcome for all of us.
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Ben Framed on May 23, 2022, 03:49:39 pm

Previously they did not give the vaccine to kids and some died so I know what risks I would take with my kids.
No one was forced to take the vaccine even though it would have been a better outcome for all of us.

> I know what risks I would take with my kids. Die now or worry about maybe something bad might happen...

Goodness!

That is your opinion and absolutely your choice; But based on what? The science recommended by whom?  Biden lol ? Or Mr Science himself Old Fouch? The choice to give it to your kids is yours and yours alone. The following has already been reveled to you by The WHO Inspector-General (himself), in reply 73 on this very topic!

https://youtu.be/MbbXanxbApQ



????


"So, if its going to be used it's, better to focus on those groups who have risk of sever disease and death, rather than as we see some countries are using to give boosters to to kill children which is not right. "
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Michael Bush on May 27, 2022, 08:20:02 am
>Tests were required for FDA approval so you statement is false.

And the Vaccine being distributed  is still not approved...
Title: Re: When will the ignorant get smart
Post by: Acebird on May 27, 2022, 09:05:37 am

And the Vaccine being distributed  is still not approved...
Beating a dead horse...
Title: Re: Big Lies
Post by: salvo on May 31, 2022, 12:09:13 pm
Hi Folks,

I have no idea where to put this on this forum.

https://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/2022/05/dear-friends-sorry-announce-genocide-dr-naomi-wolf/

Sal
Title: Re: Re: Big Lies
Post by: Kathyp on May 31, 2022, 01:31:32 pm
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I have no idea where to put this on this forum.

Can't speak to much of this and don't know the author, but there is much yet to be learned about this vaccine and if it's bad, we will learn the hard way.

We do know that the vaccine type was shelved in the first place mostly because it didn't really work.  The argument now is made that more people would have died without it, and there may be some truth to that with high-risk people, but this does not take into account that the virus has mutated down.  We can't really evaluate how many might have died or not without the vaccine.

There really was not a good reason for otherwise healthy people under the age of 60ish to get vaccinated.  There was no reason at all to start giving it to kids...or no reason we know of?

Title: Re: Re: Big Lies
Post by: Acebird on June 01, 2022, 08:15:16 am
Can't speak to much of this and don't know the author, but there is much yet to be learned about this vaccine and if it's bad, we will learn the hard way.
You mean like the people that died because they didn't get it?
 
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We can't really evaluate how many might have died or not without the vaccine.
We certainly can.  It is called mathematics.
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There really was not a good reason for otherwise healthy people under the age of 60ish to get vaccinated.  There was no reason at all to start giving it to kids...or no reason we know of?
Spewing misinformation again...