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Author Topic: Bee genetics  (Read 12800 times)

Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: Bee genetics
« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2018, 03:35:40 pm »
(Van;  Those small clusters are caused by the queen not laying properly during the months of July and August.)

ARbeekeeper,,  thank you for input, from a local that is most important,,,refer to above paste: that was my point, sorry I did not make that more clear.  I use plastic
insulated tops, screened bottom boards that are closed, not sealed though.  One dead out in more detail:  my cordovan queen was replaced, supersedure in Sept. I suspect as I did find an open queen cell.  The new queen did not get mated, gin clear spermatheca upon necropsy.  Obviously she could not lay workers and made no attempt to lay drones in September.  Yes, this hive had a small cluster void of a laying queen and freeze killed.

The other hive, freeze killed had a small cluster, for reasons I could not determine.  Cordovan queen was fertile, milk white spermatheca upon necropsy, there was froze brood in the hive with workers spread out trying to warm, again, not enough bees.

Due to such a fall dearth in N. Arkansas, I feed 2X in Sept,,, not every day as I did not won?t to initiate a laying frenzy.  All hives currently have adequate stores, full frames of untouched honey as of last week and the 60F day?s just prior to this negative 1F days.

I made one alternation, after discovery of a condensation kill, I have full open entrance, 10 frame std. Lang, screen bottom closed.   Hope this was in favor of the bees and evaporated moisture.
Stay in touch neighbor.
Blessings


Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Bee genetics
« Reply #21 on: January 18, 2018, 07:16:07 am »
Van,
Sorry for your losses. I know how it feels.
Jim
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
Ben Franklin

Online Michael Bush

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Re: Bee genetics
« Reply #22 on: January 18, 2018, 02:59:26 pm »
Here in the northern US the biggest selective pressures are winter and Varroa.  Secondary selective pressures are tracheal mites and viruses.  I would rather get bees that have taken those losses and been selected for resistance to those things that buy treated southern bees that have not been.  Feral bees are severely selected for all survival traits.  In Australia you aren't really dealing with those life and death survival issues.  Small hive beetles seem to be you biggest pest.  I prefer feral bees here.  If I was there I might prefer gentle domestic bees...
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
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Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: Bee genetics
« Reply #23 on: January 18, 2018, 03:40:51 pm »
MB (would rather get bees that have taken those losses and been selected for resistance to those things that buy treated southern bees that have not been.)

Agreed, I purchased some survivor queens for 2018 with your above quote as basis of thought for my purchase.
Blessings

Offline omnimirage

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Re: Bee genetics
« Reply #24 on: January 19, 2018, 11:32:20 pm »
MB, is that because feral bee swarms are likely to be more resistant to the weather and varroa?

Offline eltalia

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Re: Bee genetics
« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2018, 03:02:03 am »

Here in the northern US the biggest selective pressures are winter and Varroa.

Granted Michael... and therein lies a scientific approach to restoring
ye days of olde for the Americas - ban the beekeeper :-))
Like, put some thought to campaigning for the removal of ALL managed Apis
for say 3 years (?) with a restocking program to begin then, using
only the local mongrels with transport across borders being highly selective.
Within 10 years you guys would be back where y'all were prior to '87..!
And just think of the global good a pulsating import market for honey
the USA could create..?.. win win, hey ;-)))

Bill

Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Bee genetics
« Reply #26 on: January 20, 2018, 08:40:19 am »
Bill,
3 years with no bees in the US!
We would put our fruit growers out of business. We would only have imported fruit at a very high price.
Won't happen.
I did hear that India could not afford to treat their bees when varroa first hit them and it took 3 years to get their hives back to full level with no treatment.
Jim
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
Ben Franklin

Offline eltalia

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Re: Bee genetics
« Reply #27 on: January 20, 2018, 10:31:15 am »
Bill,
3 years with no bees in the US!
No panic..
... not so bad when you consider the boom in the moonshine business, as
withdrawl kicks in, for some :-))))

Quote
We would put our fruit growers out of business. We would only have imported fruit
at a very high price.
I know... "global good" and all that like, yeh :-))))
[polishes up the Aussie dollar]

Quote
Jim

maaaaate, I say maaaaaaaate, the ferals will save y'all ;-))))

Bill

Offline little john

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Re: Bee genetics
« Reply #28 on: January 20, 2018, 11:02:13 am »
[...] put some thought to campaigning for the removal of ALL managed Apis
for say 3 years (?) with a restocking program to begin then, using
only the local mongrels [...]

As the European Honey Bee isn't a native species within the Americas - from where do you think the local mongrels/ 'ferals' originated ... from managed colonies perhaps ?
LJ
A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping - http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com

Offline bwallace23350

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Re: Bee genetics
« Reply #29 on: January 20, 2018, 12:40:38 pm »
[...] put some thought to campaigning for the removal of ALL managed Apis
for say 3 years (?) with a restocking program to begin then, using
only the local mongrels [...]

As the European Honey Bee isn't a native species within the Americas - from where do you think the local mongrels/ 'ferals' originated ... from managed colonies perhaps ?
LJ

THey did of course originate from managed colonies. I think we can bring back feral bees and even managed bees without the use of treatment at least on the local level. I now have a hive that was booming with orientation flights yesterday, that has had no treatment in years. I am glad I managed to snag that hive. It is pretty gentle also. I plan on making splits and such from that hive and moving the splits to different locations just to see how that affects the honey taste even though they will be less than one mile apart.

Offline 220

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Re: Bee genetics
« Reply #30 on: January 20, 2018, 06:10:04 pm »
Feral bees are severely selected for all survival traits.  In Australia you aren't really dealing with those life and death survival issues.  Small hive beetles seem to be you biggest pest.  I prefer feral bees here.  If I was there I might prefer gentle domestic bees...

The biggest advantage I can see with feral bees is they have evolved to survive in the local climate. We have areas of Australia that can receive snow 12 months of the year and large parts that rarely see temps below 70, parts that receive 12" rainfall annually and areas that receive that in a week. Bees were introduced to Aus 200 years ago so you could be looking at 200 generations of evolution to suit the local climate. To reproduce they need to successfully over winter or get through a extended summer dearth depending on location and then build up sufficient numbers and stores to allow successful swarming. The only trait really missing in the natural selection process is gentleness.

If you are a migratory beekeeper, moving bees every few months chasing the flow 12 months of the year then I doubt there would be any advantage in feral bees. In a stationary yard then local feral bees could have 200 years of selection to best survive in the local conditions.

Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: Bee genetics
« Reply #31 on: January 20, 2018, 07:43:38 pm »
There is some miss understanding about evolution, honey bees and the so called survivor bees also called feral swarms.  Apparently there is an understanding or rather misunderstanding that feral swarms have obtained through evolution superior traits to apiary breed bees.

By definition the history of a feral swarm is unknown.  Did the swarm originate from a local apiary or did the swarm originate from a feral hive that has been in existence for 100 years or maybe only feral for a couple of years.  There is an assumption that the feral swarm is superior.  This is not a correct assumption.

There is also a lot of text about evolution and a connection is assumed with a feral bee swarm.  A feral swarm has an unknown history, do not assume the bees have evolved.  If you obtain a feral swarm such as Wallace and maintain this colony chemical free then then you have a thriving colony and by all means make splits.  Breed for the best bees.

Evolution takes thousands of generations, so with honey bees understand this could take a lifetime.  Yet I see beeks text of evolution as if this takes a few years.  Yes evolution caused by mutation can be created within a single breeding.  But to disseminate this positive mutation through the apiary and eventually the world will not happen in a lifespan.  We are talking, Varroa and virus a double threat, which completely complicates evolution.  Evolution is a slow process, this is why extinction of so many species occurs, they cannot evolve fast enough.  The honey bees, well I have hope for due to the fact so many are doing their part.  Yes we will opinion the threat and the no treat methods.  To me, I can see assurance in both methods but that is not what this thread is about.  It?s evolution verses apiary bred.

Is there truly a honey bee that has evolved survival techniques that can last from now to eternity, completely inert to Varroa, virus, bacteria foul brood, European hornet, Nosema and approx. over 100 invasive virus, bacteria, mold, and fungus that are not mentioned.  The evolution of the honey bee is a continuing process.  An organism vanishes when cellular anxiety exceeds evolution.

So in the future when you text of evolution of honey bees, understand maybe not in this lifetime.  My point, show me that evolved queen bee and I will buy her, multiply her and give the queens away for survival of the bees.
Blessings

Offline eltalia

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Re: Bee genetics
« Reply #32 on: January 20, 2018, 10:52:24 pm »
Thankyou Van...'nother well presented insightful view I can live with. Really I was just pulling
Michael's leg - and then Jim's -  as the thought of VD in this Country is just too distressing to
go there. But I do own a serious view on feral genetics in this Country.. read on.

For @220... there are solid flora management reasons behind "no managed colonies within
State forests" policy in Queensland, but the axis it all swings off is found in preserving our
native bees, among them the communal Tets. Myself I am right behind the policy to the point
that were it possible I'd sanction gassing all feral Apis.
That said they are however an excellant resource for building apiaries provided you change the
genetics within a brood cycle. Anything else and your management only contributes to the problem
of feral Apis in this Country as by their very nature they are antsy - to other bees - and swarmy
lil' mothers.

Bill

Offline 220

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Re: Bee genetics
« Reply #33 on: January 21, 2018, 07:24:18 am »
While it might take thousands of generations for a breed to evolve in isolation that isn't the case with feral bees.
The fact that just about every recognised breed has been introduced means the genetic diversity is already there. The traits from each breed that took thousands of years to evolve in isolation are all there in the genetic pool and no doubt the traits that give them the highest chance of survival in the local climate quickly become dominant.
I cant speak for anyone else but when I make reference to feral bee evolving this is what I am referring to. I have no doubt if you were to compare truly feral bees from my area of Aus where we have 48" rainfall 60+ nights below freezing and regular snow with somewhere like the north of WA where the rainfall might be less than half and temperatures rarely drop below 20c there would be marked genetic differences. It might not be evolution in the classical sense but no doubt the local bees have evolved to best suit the local climate.

Offline little john

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Re: Bee genetics
« Reply #34 on: January 21, 2018, 07:46:46 am »
I think we can bring back feral bees and even managed bees without the use of treatment at least on the local level.

That would be better than doing nothing, sure, but I would suggest that a far better solution than relying on so-called 'ferals' lies in renewed importations from the largest gene pool of Apis in the world - from mainland Europe.  Sue Cobey has been trying her level best to do just this, despite obstructions from government.

But any long-term sustainable solution would also require an alternative approach to professional queen-rearing: https://beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=50385.0

LJ
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Offline eltalia

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Re: Bee genetics
« Reply #35 on: January 21, 2018, 08:54:32 am »
 
While it might take thousands of generations for a breed to evolve in isolation that isn't the case with feral bees.
(edit)
It might not be evolution in the classical sense but no doubt the local bees have evolved to best suit the local climate.

Soooo... following your 'logic' a bloke would be blowing the $1200 against the wall in adding
Kangaroo or Rottnest (Island) genetics to a FNQ* apiary?

Sorrrrry... I struggle in following your thinking, and add it is not for me to know where you get
your information from but I sure as heck do know folk as the fella that wrote the submission
linked to would be among the many hecklers such would draw were you to present your views
among peers, publicly.

 http://www.aph.gov.au/DocumentStore.ashx?id=ffdf609f-1574-49b7-b796-0350aeaf200f

Bill

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FNQ* is Far North Queensland as opposed to "Queensland", North Queensland
and Western Queensland, all of which have significantly variant localised
climates.

Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: Bee genetics
« Reply #36 on: January 21, 2018, 11:46:10 am »
Thank you Bill, quote from your generously provided link:
(the Solomon islands there were 2000 hives in 2003 by 2008 there were 5 hives left and no ferals, effectively wiping out the beekeeping industry.)

Eliminating all feral hives, destroying  2,000 colonies and leaving only 5 itialian colonies.  Destruction by Asian honey bees and introduction of varroa.  Don?t confuse the Asian honey bee with the Asian hornet, the Asian honey bee looks like the typical itialian but smaller.

Think about that, only 5 colonies remain and it took only 5 years to wipe out the entire isolated, ?evolved? honey bee colonies.
Thanks again Bill, thumbs up high fer ya fella.
Blessings

Offline 220

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Re: Bee genetics
« Reply #37 on: January 21, 2018, 06:16:28 pm »
So how is the introduction of a species that can not successfully mate with the bees that were there relevant. If they could successfully mate then no doubt the asian genes would quickly become dominant in the feral colonies.


I fail to see how the submission you linked in any way counters the arguement that the genetic makeup of  truly feral colonies will be the best combination to survive in a area. If anything the fact that to breed the genetics they are after they have to go outside the area and breed in isolation supports it. If the traits they are looking for were the best suited then they would have quickly become dominant in the feral colonies.

Offline eltalia

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Re: Bee genetics
« Reply #38 on: January 21, 2018, 10:38:53 pm »
@220 wrote:
Quote
So how is the introduction of a species that can not successfully mate with the bees that were there relevant. If they could successfully mate then no doubt the asian genes would quickly become dominant in the feral colonies.

Being fixated on a set view you are missing the message of an example which clearly shows how
dominance works. Populist to near zero in five years is no mean feat.
Find yourself a sunflower field adjacent some bush(scrub) to observe the activity of ferals (ye olde
English Black Bushbee) among the native bees and those from the pollinator's boxes (Apis m*) set
to the field.

Quote
I fail to see how the submission you linked in any way counters the arguement that the genetic makeup of  truly feral colonies will be the best combination to survive in a area. If anything the fact that to breed the genetics they are after they have to go outside the area and breed in isolation supports it. If the traits they are looking for were the best suited then they would have quickly become dominant in the feral colonies.
The assumption cultured queens would dominate in significant numbers among feral colonies is
the error in your 'logic', historicly the feral queens are installed with their genetics invading the
apiary. It's exactly the case that ferals do not own desired traits which drives a whole Queen
supply industry in this Country. Cut open a few feral colonies to see that for yourself.
 As said, the ferals are antsy/swarmy lil' mothers, responsible apiaists select lines denying those
traits.

As much as I loathe Googl'rs you yourself are quite capable of educating yourself amongst the
work of others;
http://www.glenn-apiaries.com/genetics.html

In closing..?.. it is exactly mindsets as yours that place neighbouring apiaries in danger of
unwanted genetic change - and extra work for the apiarist - through what I see as sheer
lazyness in management, deferring to arguement as excuse for that demeanour.
Off topic as it is I have had discussion with a migratory sideliner b'keep justlast Saturday
whereon he claimed SHB built for strong "survivor" colonies.
We had no SHB here and now maybe 2 months after he rocked up with his
3 colonys on the melon patch two of my nursed colonies are riddled with them. Worse, he
hasn't been near them since a check a week after dropping them off and had no intention
of doing so until after the wet season, maybe as late as midApril. I've written the incident
up in snailmail as I'll bet my last buck the fella is not even registered.
Such a management style could be behind the africanisation of colonies in States of the
USA, yet certainly it is such an attitude that will lead to the further degradation of managed
colonies in this Country.
Can I say "Flow [tm]" here??.... ummmm.


Bill

Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: Bee genetics
« Reply #39 on: January 21, 2018, 11:37:56 pm »
{So how is the introduction of a species that can not successfully mate with the bees that were there relevant.}. Maybe this post was not directed at me, just clarifying.

I did not mention mating, I didn?t even imply such.  The Asian bees robbed and starved the itialian hives to death, all 1,995 hives as well as all known ferals.

 

anything