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Offline little john

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Robbing and The Big Rock Candy Mountain ...
« on: August 18, 2016, 05:37:14 am »
When I had just a couple of dozen hives, I discovered that one way to prevent robbing was to give the robbing hive(s) frequent small quantities of a very weak sugar syrup - something around 1:4 or 1:8 - thus fooling them into thinking that there was no longer a nectar dearth, and thus no need to rob.

Now that the hive count has increased, doing the rounds of hives each evening in order to top-up feeders has become a time-consuming chore, and I've been looking for some other means of drip-feeding small amounts of sugar.

Larger-sized feeders don't work - the girls just guzzle down the larger volumes of syrup at the same rate.  A large external feeder doesn't appeal much, as they attract wasps as well as other people's bees.

During the winter I've taken to providing overhead jars of 'damp' sugar - well, to be precise - wet sugar which has been allowed to set solid.  This technique has worked well, even though a small percentage of that sugar does end up on the floor.  There's always the possibility of a 'sugar dump', although I've never actually witnessed one - and so I'm currently trialling two ways of avoiding this possibility:



The jar on the left has a thin plastic covering, as one would do when feeding fondant.  The one on the right is subject to a Patent Pending (only joshing ...) where I've pushed a 'tube' of chicken wire down into the sugar before it sets.

These jars are now in place, and the sugar is being devoured - and at the present rate, I'd guess each jar is good for 7 - 10 days, which would be ideal.  I'd stress that these colonies don't need feeding - they have plenty of stores - I'm only trying to fool them into thinking that the dearth is over.  Not enough feed to stimulate brood rearing, but just enough to prevent the urge to rob.

So why "The Big Rock Candy Mountain" ?

Well, on my travels around The Web, I came across:  http://honeybeesuite.com/candy-board-feeders-for-honey-bees/
and it occurred to me that feeding hard (rock) candy might be a better solution than damp (set) sugar.  Bearing in mind that with Rock Candy there's soft-ball and hard-ball hardnesses (which depend on the final temperature of the mix, which in turn determines the amount of remaining water, and thus the level of hardness), I decided to make a few samples to try.




The numbers are the final temperatures (in degs C), and as you can see there's a small colour change involved.  Never tried feeding Rock Candy before, so this is very much a work in progress.  If I get a week or more from each jar, then I'll be well pleased.  The Nucs, of course, will continue to be fed plain sugar syrup.

LJ



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Offline Rurification

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Re: Robbing and The Big Rock Candy Mountain ...
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2016, 03:39:45 pm »
To avoid a sugar dump, could you cut out rounds of hardware cloth or screen big enough to fit in a canning ring and with holes just large enough for the bees to get into?    Those looked like regular canning jars to me ...
Robin Edmundson
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Offline little john

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Re: Robbing and The Big Rock Candy Mountain ...
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2016, 04:16:51 pm »
Robin - of course - modify the existing lids to take coarse mesh ...  Thanks - sometimes I get my head so far into the clouds that I miss the obvious !  Thank you.


Ok - this is proving to be a very good way of stopping robbing - 24hrs after the first candy was given, all robbing (including attempted) has stopped ... completely.

I'm also very pleased with the process which I've now fine-tuned: by reducing the amount of water being added to a fixed weight of sugar, boiling now commences at around 115 deg C., and I then only need to boil-off a small amount of water to reach 117 deg C.  And with this reduced boil-time, the resulting candy remains white, a colour I'm much happier with.




To my surprise, the making of candy jars is turning out to be a faster process than the making of sugar syrup, as the cooling-down of the candy in the jars doesn't slow down the 'production line'.  I reckon the making of 100 jars during one rainy afternoon wouldn't be difficult.

LJ
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Offline divemaster1963

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Re: Robbing and The Big Rock Candy Mountain ...
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2016, 05:06:02 pm »
I'm watching this with baited  breath. I don't feed sugar but if things got to a point that I needed this is a great idea. do you use empty suppers to put the jars in upside down for internal or do you use entrance feeder.  I have thought of using side feeders. hole in side of brood box with tube mount to jar base so they can get to candy and don't have to open hive.

john

Offline Acebird

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Re: Robbing and The Big Rock Candy Mountain ...
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2016, 05:32:03 pm »
I'd stress that these colonies don't need feeding - they have plenty of stores - I'm only trying to fool them into thinking that the dearth is over.  Not enough feed to stimulate brood rearing, but just enough to prevent the urge to rob.

Is it a concern of yours where the sugar goes?  If you continue doing this for weeks then your hives will be gaining a lot of weight.  With plenty of stores already in the hive how will you keep it separate.  Shouldn't YOU rob the hive first and then put back if you had to?  I can't see why you would have to but...
Brian Cardinal
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Offline little john

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Re: Robbing and The Big Rock Candy Mountain ...
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2016, 07:12:56 pm »
Hello Brian - I live in the middle of something approaching a nectar 'desert' - thousands of acres of cabbages, sprouts, sugar beet - with just the occasional few fields of Oil Seed Rape (Canola). There's really not enough of a honey harvest to make extraction worthwhile - so I don't bother, and the bees keep what they make.  However, one good aspect of living in this environment is that there are very few other beekeepers 'within range', so the large number of drones I will be raising will no doubt dominate the local gene pool. I tend to think of my operation as 'bee-farming' rather than 'honey-farming'.


Hi John - the following method of feeding is one I'm now really happy with (it took me a short while to iron out a few bugs) - and I can't see me ever changing it.  It's based on inverted jar feeders, over open holes rather than mesh, so that solid food can be fed as well as syrup. The absence of mesh does mean that changing jars requires more care than if mesh were in place.  What I do is slide a sheet of thin but stiff plastic (think old-style X-Ray film) under the jar, in order to cover the feed hole, then remove the jar.  I place a small weight on top of the plastic if it's windy.  Then, refill or swap the jar, place it over the hole, and withdraw the plastic.  A little practice, and it soon becomes second nature.
I found that drawing marks across the hole helps to centre the jar, which can be useful if the jar diameter is close to the hole diameter in the insulation (see later) and thus without much in the way of clearance.

Ok - so this is the basic set-up.  I drill holes in the Crown Board (inner cover) - four in each Long Hive and full-sized vertical hive, and 2 in each Nuc.




The spacing between holes is always the same, so that insulation can be swopped if needs be.  Here's an example of insulation - two layers of polysytrene stuck together with wood glue.




And just the one jar (for cold weather use) has a cover, again made from polystyrene & wood glue.




With feeder shell and telescopic roof over - that's pretty-much my standard set-up.  Feeders for Long Hives and Nucs are very similar.




One question I'm often asked is "how do you cut the holes and bungs so neatly ?"
The secret is an old tin can:




Just serrate one edge of the can, and use as a hole cutter.  Cut a 1.5" hole in the other end of the can, and use a piece of broom handle to push the blanks out, then glue the blanks together to make bungs.

I just love this as a system - to check feed, just lift off the roof and jar cover.  Only if the jar's empty do you need to lift away the insulation and swap jars. For autumn (fall) rapid feeding, I fill four jars with 2:1 at the same time, as four jars = 1/2 gallon. We don't have the BIG Mason jars which you guys have.

Hope this info is useful,
LJ
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Robbing and The Big Rock Candy Mountain ...
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2016, 09:08:59 pm »
Hello Brian - I live in the middle of something approaching a nectar 'desert' - thousands of acres of cabbages, sprouts, sugar beet - with just the occasional few fields of Oil Seed Rape (Canola). There's really not enough of a honey harvest to make extraction worthwhile

Oh, sounds like monoculture ... so sorry.  So you are keeping bees to prove you can do it?
Brian Cardinal
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Offline Jim134

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Re: Robbing and The Big Rock Candy Mountain ...
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2016, 09:51:18 pm »
Hello Brian - I live in the middle of something approaching a nectar 'desert' - thousands of acres of cabbages, sprouts, sugar beet - with just the occasional few fields of Oil Seed Rape (Canola). There's really not enough of a honey harvest to make extraction worthwhile

Oh, sounds like monoculture ... so sorry.  So you are keeping bees to prove you can do it?

   Now I understand why some of the statements you make. Do not make any sense to me. Now it looks like your bees are on life support all the time. Thank you Acebird .. For your observations.

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Offline CrazyTalk

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Re: Robbing and The Big Rock Candy Mountain ...
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2016, 10:18:49 pm »
Any issues with ants?

Offline little john

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Re: Robbing and The Big Rock Candy Mountain ...
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2016, 04:47:36 am »
Hello Brian - I live in the middle of something approaching a nectar 'desert' - thousands of acres of cabbages, sprouts, sugar beet - with just the occasional few fields of Oil Seed Rape (Canola). There's really not enough of a honey harvest to make extraction worthwhile

Oh, sounds like monoculture ... so sorry.  So you are keeping bees to prove you can do it?

Not at all - I find the production of bees far more interesting - and profitable - than competing with low-priced honey in supermarkets.  Nectar drops-off significantly during summer, hence the feeding - but we have pollen in abundance for most of the year.  So it isn't all bad news. 
I'd rather be short of nectar than pollen - and the shortage is only in summer.  Providing I don't take a honey crop (which suits me fine), the bees have a happy life here, and remain healthy.
LJ

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Offline little john

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Re: Robbing and The Big Rock Candy Mountain ...
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2016, 04:49:51 am »
Hello Brian - I live in the middle of something approaching a nectar 'desert' - thousands of acres of cabbages, sprouts, sugar beet - with just the occasional few fields of Oil Seed Rape (Canola). There's really not enough of a honey harvest to make extraction worthwhile

Oh, sounds like monoculture ... so sorry.  So you are keeping bees to prove you can do it?

   Now I understand why some of the statements you make. Do not make any sense to me. Now it looks like your bees are on life support all the time. Thank you Acebird .. For your observations.

Yet another ignorant 'troll' post.
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Offline little john

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Re: Robbing and The Big Rock Candy Mountain ...
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2016, 04:55:32 am »
Any issues with ants?

None at all - when I first experimented with open (upright) containers inside a feeder eke, there were swarms of ants.  But the inverted jars don't allow ants much room for access.
LJ
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Re: Robbing and The Big Rock Candy Mountain ...
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2016, 06:52:16 am »
Any issues with ants?

None at all - when I first experimented with open (upright) containers inside a feeder eke, there were swarms of ants.  But the inverted jars don't allow ants much room for access.
LJ


LJ
What do you mean by the last statement. Are you talking about open feeding?
Jim
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Offline little john

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Re: Robbing and The Big Rock Candy Mountain ...
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2016, 09:17:17 am »
Hi Jim ...

These are examples of the kind of 'through the Crown Board feeders' I've tried and haven't been happy with for one reason or another.

This was one of the first:




These are probably the best of the dozen or so designs I played with. This one has an angled 'ladder':




and this one a vertical 'ladder':




Better than the fully open containers, but the angled ladder drowned more bees during filling than the vertical.

I found the main problem was when the syrup ran out - the bees would then crowd solidly into the mesh cavity, and not budge.  Filling with syrup under those conditions would have drowned half of them - so I then had to use a smoker to clear them out so that I could re-fill. 

In the last shot you can see brown cinnamon powder which helped with the ant problem, but is a little messy, and tends to leave in anything of a breeze.

And finally, this type of feeder takes a fair time to make.  In contrast, drilling 4 holes in a jam-jar lid is very quick, and the feeders themselves cost nothing.  There's no drowning, and with insulation there's little or no unwanted dripping.  So - that's why I became a convert to using inverted jars (inside a feeder shell).

LJ
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Robbing and The Big Rock Candy Mountain ...
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2016, 09:20:16 am »
I find the production of bees far more interesting - and profitable - than competing with low-priced honey in supermarkets.

OK, now I see your focus.  Pollen is less important if your bees are raised on honey instead of sugar but thanks for clearing up your intentions.  It helps when you understand what the goals are when you communicate with other beeks.
Brian Cardinal
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Offline little john

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Re: Robbing and The Big Rock Candy Mountain ...
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2016, 10:58:22 am »
But Brian - and this is a point missed by Jim 123 in his zealous attempt to trash yet another of my posts - my bees ARE raised on honey.  They keep ALL the honey they make, and sugar is given to them only as a supplement.

Compare my style of feeding with those who rob ALL the bee's honey and then replace it totally with sugar syrup.  Now that is fairly common practice, and yet Jim describes my bees as being on 'life support' !  Insane logic, or what ?

I don't see Nosema, Chalk-Brood, or Dysentery (other than following extended confinement), and I cannot remember the last time I lost a colony to any kind of disease.  Perhaps this is due to large amounts of various pollens around here - maybe it's the climate - I don't know.

But 'Life Support', my arse.
LJ




 
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Offline divemaster1963

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Re: Robbing and The Big Rock Candy Mountain ...
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2016, 03:42:44 pm »
personally I very interested in little johns situation. his bees have forage . just not enough to justify harvesting it. but in being in this situation allows for indeapth research into different approaches with minimal external interference. if I had the location to do this I would be doing it my self. this is the only way to learn using controlled influnences. that is how papers and thesis  made! so don't be so abrasive  in pointing things out that may be going in different directions than the way you may approach something.

there are old saying that prove this:

 there's more than one way to skin a cat.
life has many roads that can and do lead to the same ending.
a bowl of soap more interesting if we use more than one ingredient.


john

no worry all just bee happy.

Offline Acebird

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Re: Robbing and The Big Rock Candy Mountain ...
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2016, 09:52:02 pm »
But Brian - and this is a point missed by Jim 123 in his zealous attempt to trash yet another of my posts - my bees ARE raised on honey.

LJ I have no idea what Jim's intentions are.  I can assure you that I have no intentions of trashing your threads.  I now know what your goals are and it is makes understanding what you say and do easier for me to digest.  If what you are doing works for you, and better yet, if you can help people that have the same interest that you do why would I see anything wrong with that?  Trust me I don't.
Brian Cardinal
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Offline little john

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Re: Robbing and The Big Rock Candy Mountain ...
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2016, 06:33:50 am »
Brian - speaking for myself, any negative criticisms made of forum members recently were not directed at yourself.  Indeed, I am still very conscious of the assistance you gave me with regard to the volatile pheromone issue.

The difference - as I see it - is about motivation.  Some people (fortunately few) post in order to score points over others, whereas other people post with more neutral intent - to challenge or clarify, and so forth ...  I think the latter is healthy, the former, not.

When you first raised the issue of non-volatility, I really didn't want to hear that, as it spoiled a perfectly good theory - but - such challenges are valuable, and to be encouraged.  But that's a far cry from what has become a fairly predictable campaign of sarcastic sniping and unwarranted negative criticism of my posts from one individual, which is what I was referring to.

'best regards,
LJ
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Offline Colobee

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Re: Robbing and The Big Rock Candy Mountain ...
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2016, 09:41:20 am »
LJ, the content of your posts speaks for itself - thoughtful, innovative, well intended. Don't let the criticism of one or a few get you down. I think most of us can see through the "smoke screen". I used to get caught up in some of those same skirmishes. Now I usually find it easier to just  not "take the bait".
 
I once worked for a lone boss who was never wrong (even when he was). It took a bit before I found that nothing infuriated him more than not getting into the pissing contest he started each day with. It dumb-founded him. Eventually he gave up trying to get me into a fight, and directed his attentions toward some poor other soul(s) who hadn't learned any better yet.
 
Keep up the good work. It is more appreciated than you might imagine. Even if it isn't said often enough.
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