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Author Topic: Tap for getting honey out of hive?  (Read 35734 times)

Offline DMLinton

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Re: Tap for getting honey out of hive?
« Reply #80 on: February 26, 2015, 07:03:26 pm »
I think that it is too good to be true from the point of view of cost....


Yes, it would certainly be a big capital investment in anyone's language.

To some extent though, could this not be balanced against reduced labour costs in the longer term? And the need for a truck and lifting gear to load supers, transport to your honey shed, then hours of extracting and then having to take it all back to the hives so they can clean it out etc.

One other thing occurs to me; if you aren't destroying significant amounts of wax by uncapping and damaging comb which will then require repair by the bees, will you not get a greater honey yield by getting better utilisation of nectar that would otherwise have been used to make new wax? (One possible unintended consequence here could be a future shortage of cappings wax to make new foundation.

I guess if you've already got a significant investment in existing equipment, it would be bordering on foolish to abandon it for a new and as-yet, not totally proven technique.

I'm not commercial, never will be, I have an interest in 5 hives and that's all it will ever be. It's attractive to me as a hobbiest, for a number of reasons, not least of which being, as I now keep bees on a small suburban block, that I don't have to disturb my bees at the time of year they're at their tetchiest, to harvest the honey.

Whilst some would take home a message from the ad that you don't need to do any of that nasty getting inside hives thing, we all know that's not true but if possible, I'd prefer to limit most of my hive fettling in this suburban location to the Spring/early Summer when they're not so irritable. Even so, with just my 2 "home hives", it's a sizeable investment to get past the Domestic Finances Manager without her veto.

I did start to crunch the numbers but, even assuming that the frames would last 10 years, it was clear that making a business case to invest was going to be impossible.  That by the way was assuming a startup, which would not already have made a significant investment in equipment.

Hobbyists typically do not have to rationalize invests from a business point of view so that those serously considering the purchase of these innovative honey frames is an entirely different "ball game".  If a hobbyist wants to start out with a couple of hives, one might say, "Well, about $400 for each hive, $150 or so for each colony of bees is, say, $550 so adding the Flow Frames makes it about $900 - $1800 for two hives is not bad.  And, look at the convenience plus no extraction equipment needed which might be an effective saving of $200 or $300".  That's a fair argument, I think.

For myself, the numbers exercise is entirely different.  First, I already harvest during my weekly or biweekly inspections so that, first, a smaller extractor is adequate, second, I have honey to sell earlier, three, I need only one honey super for each hive and, four, the bees make a lot more honey which is due, in part, to not having to build as much honey comb.  Hence, the FlowHive frames would save me carrying frames to the extractor, spinning up the extractor and returning empty frames to the hive but I still have to get the honey to my truck. No matter how I wiggle the numbers, I cannot get that saving to me to be worth $50,000 plus shipping plus the care of the frames.  Even if the frames last ten years, the $5000, or so, per year still is not worth it.  Especially when there are so many unanswered questions around reliability and service life.

It depends on one's objectives.  For hobbyists, the numbers could be quite attactive.  For commercial operations, I do not think it can work.  For me, it will not work.
Regards, Dennis
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Offline Richard M

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Re: Tap for getting honey out of hive?
« Reply #81 on: February 26, 2015, 07:24:04 pm »
Fair comment - I guess time will tell, especially if the price comes down significantly with what will probably be a much larger than anticipated production rate - production is usually fed by demand - eventually, if the production capacity is high enough, then it should bring the price down, in which case, buying this stuff now might not be a great idea - think of the Thousands of $$$s people were paying for CD players, VHS machines etc when they first came out. Not quite such a mass market for these, so the price drop wouldn't be quite so dramatic but I suspect it will happen.

As a hobbyist, I'm feeling a wee bit conflicted at present.

I just bought 2 new hives, comprising 3 deep boxes each but so far only enough frames for the bottom boxes, although I'm pouring sugar into them so they draw the foundation ASAP and hopefully we can go  into winter with two deeps of fully draw frames in each hive.

The flow-frame units won't be available for me (if I order now) until Nov 2015 at the earliest - this might be just in time to allow me to convert the third boxes for each hive to a flow-frame box, after which it should all be pretty good. Problem is, I suspect this will be a bit like a Defence Dept procurement, with everyhting running several months late and right now, I'm still in my first year of a new business, having been made redundant after 30 years in my old career only 12 months ago, so going out and spending another $700 on top of the late Xmas present of 2 new hives probably wouldn't be wise.

Ah well - first world problems eh?   :smile:

Offline craneman54

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Re: Tap for getting honey out of hive?
« Reply #82 on: February 26, 2015, 07:32:55 pm »
> MDavid  I was more thinking along the lines of bees having an internal desire to create wax as a natural and inherent need to make wax and build comb.
I have seen several of Paul Stamets videos, but I was not referring to  the heath aspect of the bees wax/honey.

I was talking more about the loss of revenue to the Beeks who harvest wax for more profit  from their hives.

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Offline Richard M

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Re: Tap for getting honey out of hive?
« Reply #83 on: February 26, 2015, 07:35:20 pm »
> MDavid  I was more thinking along the lines of bees having an internal desire to create wax as a natural and inherent need to make wax and build comb.
I have seen several of Paul Stamets videos, but I was not referring to  the heath aspect of the bees wax/honey.

I was talking more about the loss of revenue to the Beeks who harvest wax for more profit  from their hives.

If wax is your a big earner, then I'd imagine you'd want to avoid this system.

Regarding wax etc, I was thinking that if I went with a honeyflow super, this would mean that the frames in the two bottom boxes would be for brood and the colony's pollen & winter stores only, so they wouldn't be going into an extractor or handled roughly, in which case, I wouldn't need to build these frames with full-depth, wired in foundation, I could simply fix a thin (say 1" / 25mm wide), strip of foundation into the top bar groove and let them build off it as they would in a wild hive or top-bar hive. That way, they'd make the comb size they wanted, rather than what the bloke who made the foundation rollers wanted, so as much drone cells or worker cells as they needed/desired and of the size they needed/desired.

With the 8 frame hives I use, then that's 16 frames in each - so I'd only need to replace 4 to 6 frames (8-12 for the two hives) each year to ensure that the old comb was changed out and at that rate, I'd only need to buy maybe 2 sheets of foundation and no mucking about wiring it either (although I do actually get a perverse pleasure from doing this).

In practice, I think there'd still be plenty of wax in the system as it's unlikely that the commercial operators would completely embrace this method.

 
« Last Edit: February 26, 2015, 07:46:56 pm by Richard M »

Offline Better.to.Bee.than.not

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Re: Tap for getting honey out of hive?
« Reply #84 on: February 27, 2015, 12:05:58 pm »
One thing that does bother me somewhat though frankly, is the cost. I'm not going to be nice about it, and I do understand manufacturing and development is a very expensive thing...but here these guys came up with a idea....a good one, and they deserve the credit for that for sure....but in reality it is everyone else's money that is really making it a reality, a BIG reality with multiple millions of dollars being handed to them to do it....and the costs for the units seem to be still pretty darn high. I hope they are available for much much lower when they offer them commercially after production, since in reality they have already made their profits far in advance. at least to the people who donated. I sort of dislike this method of funding things for that reason honestly. it used to be you would have investors, now it is just gave to you basically (After the site takes a certain amount I imagine.) and you have no real accountability to those who actually made it happen.

Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Tap for getting honey out of hive?
« Reply #85 on: February 27, 2015, 12:16:15 pm »
One thing that does bother me somewhat though frankly, is the cost. I'm not going to be nice about it, and I do understand manufacturing and development is a very expensive thing...but here these guys came up with a idea....a good one, and they deserve the credit for that for sure....but in reality it is everyone else's money that is really making it a reality, a BIG reality with multiple millions of dollars being handed to them to do it....and the costs for the units seem to be still pretty darn high. I hope they are available for much much lower when they offer them commercially after production, since in reality they have already made their profits far in advance. at least to the people who donated. I sort of dislike this method of funding things for that reason honestly. it used to be you would have investors, now it is just gave to you basically (After the site takes a certain amount I imagine.) and you have no real accountability to those who actually made it happen.


Not sure, but I don't think they're getting contributions or gifts or something.  I think crowd-funding is just a way of funneling investors.  Seems to be a way around securities regulations.  I could be wrong, but it does seem a bit dodgy, not to mention risky for the supposd investors.  Anybody have experience with how this works?
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Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Tap for getting honey out of hive?
« Reply #86 on: February 27, 2015, 12:23:37 pm »
One thing that does bother me somewhat though frankly, is the cost. I'm not going to be nice about it, and I do understand manufacturing and development is a very expensive thing...but here these guys came up with a idea....a good one, and they deserve the credit for that for sure....but in reality it is everyone else's money that is really making it a reality, a BIG reality with multiple millions of dollars being handed to them to do it....and the costs for the units seem to be still pretty darn high. I hope they are available for much much lower when they offer them commercially after production, since in reality they have already made their profits far in advance. at least to the people who donated. I sort of dislike this method of funding things for that reason honestly. it used to be you would have investors, now it is just gave to you basically (After the site takes a certain amount I imagine.) and you have no real accountability to those who actually made it happen.


B2B,
As with all new products, if you want to bee the first to own a new product, you will be paying for the RD&D.
After they have recouped those costs and the fever has died down and the demand has backed off, then the prices will drop.
It is capitalism at its best. Without it we would still be in the Stone Age.
Jim
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Offline little john

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Re: Tap for getting honey out of hive?
« Reply #87 on: February 27, 2015, 12:57:44 pm »
I had assumed that this invention was similar to US Patent 2223561A from 1939/40 - which certainly looks feasible, but which for some reason never caught on ...  But it's not.




If you look at the Flow-Hive Patent Application US20140370781A1, you'll see just how complex this invention is, and the level of manufacturing precision required to hold liquid in the cells. Hundreds of mating surfaces - it's no wonder these combs are expensive.



I can't see this device functioning at all when it becomes worn, and if the camshaft should inadvertently be operated with crystallised honey in the cells, then I'd say there's a good chance that something will disintegrate.

In my opinion, all working kit intended for beekeeping use should be capable of withstanding plenty of use, and the occasional accidental abuse. I don't think this design will.

LJ

« Last Edit: February 28, 2015, 07:14:19 am by little john »
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Offline DMLinton

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Re: Tap for getting honey out of hive?
« Reply #88 on: February 27, 2015, 02:41:10 pm »
Not sure, but I don't think they're getting contributions or gifts or something.  I think crowd-funding is just a way of funneling investors.  Seems to be a way around securities regulations.  I could be wrong, but it does seem a bit dodgy, not to mention risky for the supposd investors.  Anybody have experience with how this works?

Crowd funding is a digital "passing the hat".  I have searched about Indiegogo to try to find out just how it all works.  The best I came up with is that it is essentially a charitable fund raising service that, presumably, takes a percentage for its efforts.  Folks raising funds can make a 'commitment' to contributors but how that commitment might be ensured is not at all clear.  FlowHIve says it will give contributors "a discount".  That's it.

I think that crowd funding is great in principle as it provides funding for worthy projects that investors see as too risky or irrelevant to consider, which raises a question - where are all the Warren Buffets in this?
Regards, Dennis
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Offline sc-bee

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Re: Tap for getting honey out of hive?
« Reply #89 on: February 27, 2015, 03:14:39 pm »
Kick starter is another.... they basically have promised to deliver a bought product. But look at the fine print on the page. A lot of ifs and buts..... I understand someone done this on a cooler idea a while back and disappeared with over 2 mil. I am not insinuating the founders of the flow hive intend on doing this.... just a comment on the hazards crowd funding.
Not spending too much time researching I found the cooler deal but no reference of the skip town by inventor so that may be false??? I heard it on another site.... and it was well over 2 Mil made on the cooler deal. Well, Well OVER!


How much do Indiegogo and Kickstarter make?

    Indiegogo charges 4 percent for fixed and flexible funding campaigns that reach their goal.
    Indiegogo charges 9 percent for flexible funding campaigns that don't reach their goal. (The difference between flexible and fixed is that flexible campaigns can keep funds even if they fall short of their goal.)
    Kickstarter charges a 5 percent fee on projects that reach their goal. (It does not have a flexible funding option like Indiegogo.)
    Both sites charge card-processing and PayPal fees that can range from 3 percent to 5 percent.
    And now to put it all together and provide an example: Kickstarter should have made roughly $665,000 from the $13.3 million Coolest Cooler project. Of the $1.1 billion Kickstarter now states as total dollars pledged across all successful projects in the past five-and-a-half years, it should have made over $57.1 million in project funding fee revenue.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2015, 03:27:36 pm by sc-bee »
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Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Tap for getting honey out of hive?
« Reply #90 on: February 27, 2015, 03:34:55 pm »
Not a bad deal for SOMEBODY  :wink:
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Offline Better.to.Bee.than.not

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Re: Tap for getting honey out of hive?
« Reply #91 on: February 27, 2015, 07:10:58 pm »

B2B,
As with all new products, if you want to bee the first to own a new product, you will be paying for the RD&D.
After they have recouped those costs and the fever has died down and the demand has backed off, then the prices will drop.
It is capitalism at its best. Without it we would still be in the Stone Age.
Jim

I am all for capitalism, but 1) they have already gained well over $3 million dollars, so let's not try to claim they are in the gaining back the research and development stage or even close to it anymore, and is this really capitalism at its best? I am not so sure. But ya people are free to spend their money the way they decide to spend it....and the chinese or others are free to then later buy one of these units and mass produce it for far cheaper too I suppose.

Offline Culley

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Re: Tap for getting honey out of hive?
« Reply #92 on: February 28, 2015, 02:13:16 am »
I also though this was probably a scam. People started emailing me with the link to the website. I saw Michael Bush's endorsement and the slick clean site and I thought this sounds a bit to good to be true, to be honest. Spoke to family members in the area and they know people who know the inventor family. I just hope they put some of that money into further developing the concept. Michael Bush's manifold sounds like a good idea.

I don't believe this is the intention of the inventors, but one downside to this is that people may think they get some bees and keep them without opening the beehive.

Offline D Coates

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Re: Tap for getting honey out of hive?
« Reply #93 on: March 03, 2015, 04:42:12 pm »
The 2 gentlemen have a tiger by the tail.  My 2 cents is they'll sell off the "company" to an investor who knows how to run a company profitably, produce and distribute product and make a return on investment.  They'll use the 4 million from crowd funding as proof that the market exists and substantial money can be made.  I know that'd be what I do once I realized I was over my head.

If they don't imagine being a company of 2 and getting 4 million in orders and donations.  You'll never handle it yourself and the amount of instant growth you've got to successfully achieve is more than just a serious challenge.
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Offline deknow

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Re: Tap for getting honey out of hive?
« Reply #94 on: March 03, 2015, 05:24:34 pm »
Seems to me that folks here would close down every Starbucks Coffee shop.....after all, no one should have the freedom to spend their own money on a $5 coffee.

What are we to do about million dollar small apartments in NYC? 

...and of course no one should collect money for package bees or queens that they won't have in hand for three or six months.

Offline Richard M

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Re: Tap for getting honey out of hive?
« Reply #95 on: March 03, 2015, 06:53:00 pm »
Seems to me that folks here would close down every Starbucks Coffee shop.....after all, no one should have the freedom to spend their own money on a $5 coffee.

What are we to do about million dollar small apartments in NYC? 

...and of course no one should collect money for package bees or queens that they won't have in hand for three or six months.

Is there a "Like"button on here?

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Tap for getting honey out of hive?
« Reply #96 on: March 04, 2015, 08:52:26 am »
> had assumed that this invention was similar to US Patent 2223561A from 1939/40 - which certainly looks feasible, but which for some reason never caught on ...  But it's not.

Actually the other one from 1940 could not possibly work if the honey was capped.  It would be the equivalent of when you uncap some honey and turn the frame upside down.  The honey never comes out because the air can't get in because of the surface tension of the honey.   The intended result for that one was the same, honey running out of the comb, but the actual result, I'm sure is that the honey did not run out very much at all.
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Offline Wombat2

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Re: Tap for getting honey out of hive?
« Reply #97 on: March 04, 2015, 05:54:59 pm »
So how does this latest design get the honey to flow if air has to replace the honey?
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Offline Bee-Haven

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Re: Tap for getting honey out of hive?
« Reply #98 on: March 04, 2015, 09:16:42 pm »
I think the air enters it by actually splitting the comb in two then putting it back together. It allows air to enter similar to air entering as you pour out a two liter of soda. The previous patent expected honey to escape by rotating a "pin" with holes in it so the honey could slide down a type of tube. The problem was there was no way for the air to enter the comb, thus creating a type of pressure stop similar to air being trapped in a container under water. I hope that made since, and this is only a guess. I'm not an engineer so I couldn't say for certain.
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Offline Richard M

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Re: Tap for getting honey out of hive?
« Reply #99 on: March 04, 2015, 10:08:55 pm »

I can't see this device functioning at all when it becomes worn, and if the camshaft should inadvertently be operated with crystallised honey in the cells, then I'd say there's a good chance that something will disintegrate.

In my opinion, all working kit intended for beekeeping use should be capable of withstanding plenty of use, and the occasional accidental abuse. I don't think this design will.


Given that it's unlikely that the frames will not be kept on the hive over the winter, is there any reason why you wouldn't give it a good wash in hot water to dissolve any crystallised gunk out at the end of the season?

Also, once open to the humidity of the hive, won't the sugar crystals, being hygroscopic simply absorb moisture and dissolve again?

 

anything