I didn’t want to hijack adamants dead out thread, but I was curious about the state of your current foam design. So I thought I would start a new thread.Its made out of foil faced Polyisocyanuorate foam.(PIR) obtained from a local builders merchant. I use the aluminium foil tape thats used by builders to seal the foam thermally.
Derekm, your hive looks it belongs in my kitchen. :) Almost looks like stainless steel from a distance, doesn’t it. It's a nice looking hive indeed; kind of looks like a modern piece of art. It’s nice to have somebody so focused on the engineering/physics of a hive interacting with us. X:X
(http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm242/derekm_2008_photo/IMAG0216_zps3ebc3b2b.jpg)
What are you facing the inside surface with these days to keep the bees from chewing it? It looks like your polyurethane sheets are foil faced. Is that on both sides? I don’t believe we have that brand here in the Midwest USA.
Are you still using your baffled vent box on the bottom? I liked that idea, but it just seemed like too much work for me, so I just went the lazy route and made all air exchanges through the bottom entrance in my latest nuc design.
How about glue? Are you using polyurethane glue or something else?
That looks like about 50mm thick foam from here?
Nice job!
.
No one need super insulated hive.
...
Why didn’t insulation work for Brother Adam?
...I mention this because I have found my smaller bottom entrances often get clogged shut with bees. I can simply poke a stick strait in to clear the bees away. It doesn’t look like that would be possible with your entrance.the PIR base board its on isnt part of the hive ... I now have a sloping piece of plastic mesh under the hive.. the dead bees can roll off.
How about paint? Are you going to paint this design or leave the metallic like finish?
Every now and then I come across a site which I think is worth bookmarking - here's one I came across recently which you may find relevant to the current project: http://www.beebehavior.com/THSC_Unit.php (http://www.beebehavior.com/THSC_Unit.php)
LJ
Every now and then I come across a site which I think is worth bookmarking - here's one I came across recently which you may find relevant to the current project: http://www.beebehavior.com/THSC_Unit.php (http://www.beebehavior.com/THSC_Unit.php)His work while good intentioned has a number of flaws as it seems to assume this
What I like about this particular site is that the guy doesn't just theorise - but he goes to the trouble of running trials, and then publishing the data.
...
Hei laari laari laa vaari muorin saa kaikuvi suloinen suomenmaa | = | Hello bipolar bipolar quality grandpa granny gets resonant sweet Suomenmaa |
Well, the days seem to be getting short...
]Hei laari laari laa..........................................lal lal lal lal jodling
vaari muorin saa...........................................grandpa gets grandma
kaikuvi suloinen suomenmaa...........................echo sounds over lovely Finland
Original :
Honkain keskellä mökkini seisoo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nQVpG2vg2Y#ws)
Ha Ha Ha!
Direct translation from Google Translate. This makes better sense.
Seems the days are STILL getting pretty short...
It sounds like these beauties in Finland were also well insulated but they failed too. Why was that?
Questions for Brother Adam :
When did you put the insulation on?
Insulation effectiveness is all about detail.
How air tight was the insulation?
Look, the guy uses only medium boxesFinski , I seem to recall you talking about switching over to all mediums too? Are you going to do that? Do they make your poly hives in medium size?
Brother Adam didn't provide a photo of his insulation setup,
Brother Adam says this on page 56: We know that cold, even severe cold, does not harm colonies that are in good health. Indeed, cold seems to have a decided beneficial effect on Bee's. :?
Every now and then I come across a site which I think is worth bookmarking - here's one I came across recently which you may find relevant to the current project: http://www.beebehavior.com/THSC_Unit.php (http://www.beebehavior.com/THSC_Unit.php)His work while good intentioned has a number of flaws as it seems to assume this
What I like about this particular site is that the guy doesn't just theorise - but he goes to the trouble of running trials, and then publishing the data.
...
"And one of beekeeping axiom states:"Cold does not kill bees, but wetness does."
This is a common misconception that leads to allsort of false conclusions. What can kill bees (or humans for that matter) :
Excessive heat loss (hypothermia)
starvation
dehydration.
That false maxim :"Cold does not kill bees, but wetness does."
can lead one to kill bees by either hypothermia and/or dehydration.
where the bees were allowed to decide for themselves where the best place was for entrance & ventilation.
LJ
So Finski, what did you do in England :)
Derekm, I have another concern with your bottom vent box and I’m wondering if you have seen this problem yet? The bees will chase wax moth larvae from their brood box into that vent box. If there is wax debris in that box, the wax moths can usually live there unmolested by the bees. That isn’t a big problem if you have plenty of bees to keep them in check, but I have a feeling they might still make a mess of your foil facing as they pupate? Thoughts?
The top entrance bottom entrance debate is resolved every time a swarm decides on a nest site
It occurs to me that as the upper entrance vs. lower entrance debate is never-ending (I, like many Europeans happen to favour lower, seems that many Americans favour upper) - and so the most non-anthropomorphic approach would be to make entrances (say, single 20mm holes - just for the winter) at Top, Bottom and Middle positions, then block them off with cow dung, cardboard or similar chewable material, leaving (say) a 3mm hole to give the girls a clue. In that way, the bees will themselves open or close the entrance holes, as is seen with the old technique of skep beekeeping, to regulate their own hive conditions as they see fit.
If you look at: http://www.beebehavior.com/beekeeping_questions.php (http://www.beebehavior.com/beekeeping_questions.php) you'll see that question 7 is an example of where the bees were allowed to decide for themselves where the best place was for entrance & ventilation.
LJ
k tell us how you feel.
Where I live would there be any good reason to insulate? I believe I will have more issues with heat than cold. Very mild winters, very hot and humid summers. Just asking.
[quote author=Finski link=topic=39518.msg333648#msg333648 date=13540
Three the most vain thing in the world
1) Popes balls
2) Nun's nipples
3) English knowledge about insulation
]if you have aircon you insulate against the heat. bees have aircon
Where I live (South Carolina) would there be any good reason to insulate? I believe I will have more issues with heat than cold. Very mild winters, very hot and humid summers. Just asking.If I still lived in the south, I kind of doubt I would be using insulated hives. It just doesn’t get that cold down there to warrant extra time, cost, and physical limits of foam IMO.
but the aircon (driven by water evaporation) is more effective if the cavity is insulated as it restricts the flow of heat from outside to in.]if you have aircon you insulate against the heat. bees have aircon
Bees handle aircon with water. Not with insulation.
...
but the aircon (driven by water evaporation) is more effective if the cavity is insulated as it restricts the flow of heat from outside to in.
but the aircon (driven by water evaporation) is more effective if the cavity is insulated as it restricts the flow of heat from outside to in.Agreed, but once the humidity inside the hive hits 100% relative humidity, any additional evaporative cooling isn’t going to work. With only a bottom entrance, what prevents the humidity from rising to 100%?
Have you tried with hand, how hot is the hive wall when sun shines onto it. That is why hives use to be white.
Even 20 mm polystyrene board transfers heat to the brood room, if the hive has dark color.
bees they move the air... theres a few papers on the net aboutbut the aircon (driven by water evaporation) is more effective if the cavity is insulated as it restricts the flow of heat from outside to in.Agreed, but once the humidity inside the hive hits 100% relative humidity, any additional evaporative cooling isn’t going to work. With only a bottom entrance, what prevents the humidity from rising to 100%?
It was 44F/7C and Sunny here today. The bees with top entrances are out on cleansing flights by noon. My insulated hives with ONLY a bottom entrance are consistently much slower at responding to opportunities for cleansing flights. Is that a concern to anybody? If those bottom entrance hives don’t get to go poo, is anybody concerned about nosema?
(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Foam%20Nucs/topvsbottomNov29.jpg)
r.
However I suspect the dynamics in foam hives is quite different and that the ideal setup is not the same as in wood. I base this on my observations to date as well as physics theory.
. As others here have said, it appears that the foam hives can act more like an ice cooler than a heater .
This is where I suspect Brother Adam failed in his experiments with insulation.
I do not understand anything. What beekeeping has to do with physics. Guys with quite low intelligence can nurse bees
and can only measure their knowledge in kilos of honey
8-) Finally we arrive at the root of Finski's thoughts. Its all about the honey :shock:
Are you trying to convince someone that leaving bees enough of their own honey for winter is a BAD thing?
Please say it isn't so :?
Are you trying to convince someone that leaving bees enough of their own honey for winter is a BAD thing?
Please say it isn't so :?
No, It is bad thing to the beekeeper. He will be short of money and his wife must get second job.
.
But sincerely guys, you have chronic short of jokes there.
. Go to second hand shop and by a joke book. Couple of dollars, I suppose.
http://www.101funjokes.com/ (http://www.101funjokes.com/)
.
.
Choices; rolleyes
honey?
queens?
pollinate?
wax?
relaxation?
Personal insults ? Yet another way of avoiding such questions.
I believe you have been known to add electric heat into a poly hive if there isn't enough bees to keep it warm. So evidently you also believe that insulation alone isn't enough. You need the right amount of bees for a given volume of hive. Too much box volume and the bees can not heat it....so it acts like an ice cooler ;)QuoteAs others here have said, it appears that the foam hives can act more like an ice cooler than a heater .
Good heavens what rubbish. Bees themselves generate the herat into the hive 36C. It they do not, they are dead.
I believe you have been known to add electric heat into a poly hive if there isn't enough bees to keep it warm. So evidently you also believe that insulation alone isn't enough. You need the right amount of bees for a given volume of hive. Too much box volume and the bees can not heat it....so it acts like an ice cooler ;)
You need the right amount of bees for a given volume of hive.
and can only measure their knowledge in kilos of honey
So it is...
Now come on everyone, here is rule 2 of our forum:
RULE 2) BE KIND and INTERACT, NOT REACT. AGREE TO DISAGREE EVEN IF ATTACKED BY ANOTHER MEMBER - WE WILL HANDLE THE OTHER MEMBER.
If you don't agree with someone's view,.
Sorry Fin, those are your 'assumptions' nothing more. You have alot of them :-D We know.
I get more than enough honey from my bees but it has never been my primary motivation for keeping them. And I've already told you I 'rarely' get stung despite 7-10 day inspections.
I'm hardly alone, especially these days. Perhaps I don't get stung because I'm not always taking all their honey. Hmmmm?
As you've told us; You TAKE all honey and feed your bees enough syrup in the Fall to survive until March or April, and now you seem to be condemning those who chose to leave enough honey for overwintering so they don't have to feed syrup unless there's an extreme reason to do so.
Are you kidding or is it that language barrier thing again? :-D
Are you trying to convince someone that leaving bees enough of their own honey for winter is a BAD thing?
Please say it isn't so :?
.
In Sweden and other cold winter countries you can help/save week hives by putting them i barns or cellars
In Sweden and other cold winter countries you can help/save week hives by putting them i barns or cellarsVery seldom because modern hives are so good. You cannot collect 1000 hives from woods to cellar.
Week and hives with small amount bees that are a gamble to try and get them through the winter with new queens. Not normal production hives.
mvh edward :-P
Absolutely and thanks! Wish it would happen more often to be honest. To often folks are just put down for their input rather than debated and that is a shame. Too many posters have just disappeared after repeated attacks. There is a definite lack of common courtesy permeating and percolating by some and it sometimes requires a referee. So Thanks again for being there! However, It is most unfortunate that some feel they are exempted from any rules at all and get away w/ the same type of infantile slamming of others over and over, effectively reducing any attempt to have meaningful dialogue. (the BeeMaster Pets, if you will)I'm still glad someone is watching though.
But if you want to play....... ;)
Bee Warmer or Ice Cooler? You be the judge:
Here’s the test subjects: a single story poly hive, a double decker poly hive, and a double decker wood hive. All holding medium frames and similar amounts of bees.So which of these configurations is the warmest and which is even COOLER than a wood hive?
.
Look here
http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=8458 (http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=8458)
...
I've read all those before, they all deal with bees in a very high heat loss enviroment. All very very much higher than the tree nest. There is very little research availalble on bees in lowheat loss environments
I have education and lived on days other than today and in other places than here. Apart from also having a supply of liquid nitrogen ... you can make great pure Gin ice cubes when you are not performing low temperture experiments
I've read all those before, they all deal with bees in a very high heat loss enviroment. All very very much higher than the tree nest. There is very little research availalble on bees in lowheat loss environments
Here is your home place's forecast
http://www.ihampshire.co.uk/weather/ (http://www.ihampshire.co.uk/weather/)
I wonder how are you able to speak about lowheat environment. YOu ponds do not even get ice cover there.
Your hives get pollen from nature in January. My hives get in May. From where that wisdom all comes?
You have nothing to tell to these beekepers
http://www.wunderground.com/weather-forecast/FI/Jyvaskyla.html (http://www.wunderground.com/weather-forecast/FI/Jyvaskyla.html)
Next monday weather
day night
-16 C | -24 °C
About Filland
Do you move the hives to get more honey and more money?
Do we really need migratory beeking? ?
I don't know, I'm asking.
Do we really need migratory beeking? ?
I don't know, I'm asking.
You do not know? So you do not know much about beekeeping.
To many in this forum beekeeping is only a tool that you may fill you lonely days with discussing all king of stupid things.
Honey industry and honey production needs. To catch and release beekeepers honey is a pure nuisance, so called "production waste".
.
It is my personal belief (and others too) that 'migratory' beekeeping, they way it is now conducted, has done more harm to honeybees than any other human caused factor.
ALL BEEKEEPING IS LOCAL
You need a remote means of measuring the temp at different levels inside the cluster area and outside it without the measurement process altering the readings i.e with the roof on.inside the cluster to measure the activity of th ebees, outside the cluster to see the contribution of the hive. I'm moving from thermocouples to digital temperature acquisition system that I have made with typically 16 measurement point per hive but it could go as high as 8 per frame
T Beek is right.yes but your man is going for HONEY --it is possible to run static yards without migrating-most keepers that are migratory in the true sense of the word are POLLINATORS-they have to move to and with the crops-not everything blooms same time-almond -cheery-apricots -peach apple- pear and so it goes they follow the bloom----as far as
I know of 3 commercial bee keepers around me and not a single one is a migratory bee keeper. One guy has a huge honey house, wood shop, and storage barn that probably cost $150,000+ to build. He gets around 32 tons of honey a year here in Michigan without moving hives. That’s 29,000kg of honey. How many kg is Finski getting?
As T Beek says, bee keeping is local, it depends a lot on your climate. In Michigan we have something flowing all summer long and it is not required to move hives around to get large yields. Could we get even bigger yields by moving hives to monoculture fields every couple of weeks? Maybe, but it is not necessary to be profitable in my area. Moving hives requires more labor, gasoline, time, and money; one must balance that against potentially higher yields, pesticide exposure, loss of bees and CCD.
Good point Rdy-b and of course you are right too. Finski seemed to be suggesting that commercial HONEY production depended upon migration and that is simply not the case in my area.
out going through atmosphere for space shuttle discovery--RDY-B
yes but how did your bees do- thats my first concern when i place hives--RDY-B
They are fine :-Dyes this is the way to market your self-Edward your posts always make good sense-and the noledge you
I have all my bees in permanent bee yards, these lost some hives temporarily to the pollination Job under a few weeks.
I choose my bee yards with care and usually look for beautiful locations, lots of weeds and flowers and a source of water. :-D
I live in an area with about 100 000 people and my goal is to have hives i every suburb so the whole town can buy local honey from there own area and/or garden.
My girls and I make the whole town bloom and look good and put food on every body's plate. :shock:
mvh edward :-P
yes this is the way to market your self-Edward
Our friend finski is right in how hives work in winter in freezing climates.
But whose to say what winter is?
Edward have a beautifull local story.Since 1967 I have lived in capital city and my hives have been 100 miles away. Nothing is local in capital city. you love those urban stories
Oh boy! Look from wikipediaWinter (/ˈwɪntər/ WIN-tər) is the coldest season of the year in temperate climates, between autumn and spring. At the winter solstice, the days are shortest and the nights are longest, with days lengthening as the season progresses after the solstice. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter)
Sometimes it doesnt get cold enough in Michigan for automotive development so some companies used to have cold weather test facilities north of the Arctic Circle in Sweden! It always seemed rather ridiculous to me to fly all the way to Sweden for cold weather testing when we have Canada just north of us. I like snow, but 3 feet is a bit much for this time of year!
funny thing about winter and location of bees-the bees dont know the difference from
from my country to yours-they dont say keep flying its not as cold as finland--- :lol:
**lol, you never speak about Alaska and about Alaska adapted queens?**
gee if you where from alaska then thats all we would talk about -but your from finland so we
will truch through-- ;)
**In Canada 80% of beekeepers are professionals. They do not need forum advices and not at least from California.**
well it apears that guys from finland do--I went back and read your posts from 2004-read about poly hives
and you said you used a top entrance or top vent for exaust of resperation moisture because of soilid botom board
you said not needed if you have screen botom board- :chop: thats what you wrote --but luckly time has pased
and you have learned from the forum how to run a poly hive now you are expert thanks to posters like EDWARD
you have gained the knoledge that poly hive lets watter drain out front from condenseing on the sides -with a insulated top cover
yes you no longer run your poly hives like a wood hive -there is a differance -I am glad that you are improving
your beekeeping skills- ;) try and get somthing acomplish today instead of internet sword fight with the AMERICAN BEEKEEPERS-- :ninja: dont take it personal have a nice day :) RDY-B
speaking of Alaskan Beekeeping can anyone tell me how they move hives from flow to flow such as wildflower to fireweed if the sun is always shining and there is no dark --how do you move bees in this circumstance--RDY-B
What Edward saidtwo years agho Edward wrote :Ventilation is a little backwards.
Spring and summer fall reduce the bottom ventilation , = earlier start for brood , easier for young bees to sweat wax , draw comb.
In the winter open the ventilation over the bottom of the hive ventilates condensation lets air in despite of dead bees.
The winter is still the same, lots of ventilation to get rid of excess damp.
That guy make polyhives and sell them at least to 10 country in Europe. He lives near me and I ask from him if I need some advices.
In those days Sweden had this kind of hives .Same with Finland Practically it has one brood and one or two supers. (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-344J7fKzk3Y/T3C9sw1PnnI/AAAAAAAAAqQ/uttxHExd_8U/s1600/bikupa.jpg)
If I only wanted 2 or 5 hives in the bottom of the garden I would probably use the old wooden hives beeecause they look good and are a Jewel in the garden.
.I own some of those, kept bees in them over winter and and have performed thermal measurements on them.
....
The model is for professional beekeeping. It is a production unit, and not a beauty in garden.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-IWQGeJ-iu6U/Tz1pJaWiTkI/AAAAAAAABIY/2f8Et4DcfdE/s1600/BeeBox00.jpg)
Polyhives had thinner walls a few years ago.
The model is for professional beekeeping. It is a production unit, and not a beauty in garden
So what is the entrance and venting configuration on those paradise honey hives? Based on the photo it appears they are using a mid entrance and no top vents? That looks very similar to the homemade design I’ve been using. It has worked wonderfully so far for me. My design also has walls that are approx 4cm thick. As I’ve suggested earlier, it appears to me that a hive with only 20 to 25mm thick poly walls can act like a freezer if you’re not careful. ;) More insulation is good. :)The system is normally bottom entrance only when imported into the UK. the manufacturer make the pieces that each market required
(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Extra%20Deep%20Hives/jumbohiveinNov.jpg)
I own some of those, kept bees in them over winter and and have performed thermal measurements on them.
Does their polystyrene have a tough enough surface to prevent wax moths and ants from boring through them?quote]
If you paint the it make it harder for ants to burrow in the poly
mvh edward :-P
yea yea ---but how do they move bees if the sun always shines??? RDY-B
yea yea ---but how do they move bees if the sun always shines??? RDY-B
I own some of those, kept bees in them over winter and and have performed thermal measurements on them.
So Derek, how did those Finnish hives compare to your homemade super hive in your thermal measurements?
Does their polystyrene have a tough enough surface to prevent wax moths and ants from boring through them?
I kind of like the idea of an open screen on the bottom in the winter IF I had snow is piled up around the bottom protecting it from drafts. I did have 1 nuc die off last week that had an open screen bottom and no snow protection.
yea yea ---but how do they move bees if the sun always shines??? RDY-B
I asked my colleagues this question .
how Bees behave in the north when it is light 24 hours a day?Do they rest or is it full speed all the time and if so, how does it affect the Bees and harvest.?
"The bees in the north are controlled by the temperature more than the light, if it gets a little cool in the evening they go home.
But it may be that they draw virtually around the clock when it's warm nights, and it is wonderful.
What's more in the north there is a much more diverse flora than in the south, so there are always plants from early spring to late autumn."
"they fly as long as it's hot and there's something in it .... During the raspberries flow they fly 22 of 24 hours a really impressive sight ..."
"Which should mean that sugars are higher in plants in the north compared to the south of Sweden."
mvh edward :-P
Hmmmm….. I thought somebody said it doesn’t get cold in the UK….no they are my hives (earlier revs) with supers and feed ekes (shims). I'm not worried about brood in the super. remember british nationals so not that big.
Are those 2 hives on the left side of the photo the commercial hives from Finland? I gotta say, that looks like more volume than I would want to winter in with 40mm thick poly hives. I think your hive is a more appropriate volume.
....
I have found over and over again that a bottom only entrance is a prescription for disaster in a foam hive. Might not always fail, but it turns the design into a high maintenance problem for many many reasons. Would a bottom only entrance maximize heat retention; obviously yes. But you risk so many other problems when trying to obsess on just the heat retention aspect of bee health. Many home owners discovered unforeseen problems when they tried to super insulate their own homes. There’s a point at which things can become unhealthy. A healthy home is more than one dimension.
....
You know, I miss Finski :-D
Bluebee, I always pay close attention on what you share with us regarding foam boxes, heating etc.They will chew through duct tape. However aluminium foil tape stops them, even the thinnest kind
Let me share what I experince with foam boxes and bees.
I use big salmon boxes. They are free and I can obtain tens of them. I did not paint them. I use them as nuc boxes. Some started chewing them some not. I guess if population is high then they start chewing. I thought one reason is that sun light goes through box and inside of the hive is not realy dark. Since you say rven if painted still they chew, then we can eliminate this.
In my case then they chew, they chew from the front up, close to lid area. Is this something you also have experienced?
as I said I use used foam boxes and some has clear tape on them around. When they chew from inside to outside, they could not chew that clear tape. Do you think if I apply clear tape on all inside surfaces, can I eliminate this prob lem?
Should I increase the thickness of my boxes ? They are 30mm, I can double the thickness
my climate zone is 6b
This year was payback time :whip: :chop: He threw his back out and couldn't lift any supers, and was a littel help with the bee blower, also he lost his footing and fell in a ditch and half in the middle of the road, on top of his bad back, For a few minutes I though he was dead :needhelp: i left him there for 15 minute so he could get his breath and bearings back Before dragging him up.
Bluebee, I use big salmon foam boxes and the way I can increase the thickness is to glue one extra lid to the sides. In this way, my lid has still the same mating surface. I have some extra lids to glue on side. Can I benefit from extra lids glued on sides in my location or that extra work not needed?
I will definitely glue one extra lid on top of every lids to be able to minimize the heat escape from to top for sure
Hi Bee friends,
I have made a bunch of boxes out of 2 " styrofoam. I have used a few this summer and the bees did fine.
If some of you guys can tell me how I can add a picture or two,I'll try and show you how I did it.
I am going to winter 4 hives in the foam boxes.
Hope to hear from you.
Cor Van Pelt.
Alberta.