Welcome, Guest

Author Topic: Gas box for drawn frames  (Read 7477 times)

Offline BeeMaster2

  • Administrator
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 13532
  • Gender: Male
Gas box for drawn frames
« on: August 08, 2017, 12:36:21 pm »
Has anyone tried using carbon dioxide or other gas in a closed container to kill SMB's/wax moths, their eggs and larvae when removing drawn comb from hives?
I am thinking of building a box or using an old freezer, since it is already pretty air tight and adding an inert gas into it to protect the comb.
Will it kill the eggs as well as the larvae and bugs?
Jim
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
Ben Franklin

Offline Michael Bush

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 19923
  • Gender: Male
    • bushfarms.com
Re: Gas box for drawn frames
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2017, 02:29:06 pm »
CO2 will kill the eggs as well as the larvae and the adults.
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--James "Big Boy" Medlin

Offline iddee

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 10853
  • Gender: Male
Re: Gas box for drawn frames
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2017, 02:34:26 pm »
So will freezing for a few days.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline eltalia

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1170
Re: Gas box for drawn frames
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2017, 05:40:34 pm »
Has anyone tried using carbon dioxide or other gas in a closed container to kill SMB's/wax moths, their eggs and larvae when removing drawn comb from hives?
I am thinking of building a box or using an old freezer, since it is already pretty air tight and adding an inert gas into it to protect the comb.
Will it kill the eggs as well as the larvae and bugs?
Jim

Putting on my Year10 Dux of Chemistry hat - which is a tad moth eaten itself, Jim - like what our "Greenies/TreeHuggers" approve of as a method to despatch canetoads (bufos marinus [sp?]) CO2 kills by asphixiation (sp?)
in depriving said toads of oxygen. Given all eggs have a membrane to allow oxygen and moisture to penetrate in sustaining the egg I would deduce likewise applies.
So yes, and I would offer "Dry Nitrogen" is maybe cheaper and easier to handle and also could be used to pump up your vehicle tyres! :-)

Cheers.

Bill

Offline BeeMaster2

  • Administrator
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 13532
  • Gender: Male
Re: Gas box for drawn frames
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2017, 01:21:39 pm »
Has anyone tried using carbon dioxide or other gas in a closed container to kill SMB's/wax moths, their eggs and larvae when removing drawn comb from hives?
I am thinking of building a box or using an old freezer, since it is already pretty air tight and adding an inert gas into it to protect the comb.
Will it kill the eggs as well as the larvae and bugs?
Jim

Putting on my Year10 Dux of Chemistry hat - which is a tad moth eaten itself, Jim - like what our "Greenies/TreeHuggers" approve of as a method to despatch canetoads (bufos marinus [sp?]) CO2 kills by asphixiation (sp?)
in depriving said toads of oxygen. Given all eggs have a membrane to allow oxygen and moisture to penetrate in sustaining the egg I would deduce likewise applies.
So yes, and I would offer "Dry Nitrogen" is maybe cheaper and easier to handle and also could be used to pump up your vehicle tyres! :-)

Cheers.

Bill


I will check into the nitrogen. I did not think it would be cheaper than CO2.
Jim
Has anyone tried using carbon dioxide or other gas in a closed container to kill SMB's/wax moths, their eggs and larvae when removing drawn comb from hives?
I am thinking of building a box or using an old freezer, since it is already pretty air tight and adding an inert gas into it to protect the comb.
Will it kill the eggs as well as the larvae and bugs?
Jim

Putting on my Year10 Dux of Chemistry hat - which is a tad moth eaten itself, Jim - like what our "Greenies/TreeHuggers" approve of as a method to despatch canetoads (bufos marinus [sp?]) CO2 kills by asphixiation (sp?)
in depriving said toads of oxygen. Given all eggs have a membrane to allow oxygen and moisture to penetrate in sustaining the egg I would deduce likewise applies.
So yes, and I would offer "Dry Nitrogen" is maybe cheaper and easier to handle and also could be used to pump up your vehicle tyres! :-)

Cheers.

Bill

Has anyone tried using carbon dioxide or other gas in a closed container to kill SMB's/wax moths, their eggs and larvae when removing drawn comb from hives?
I am thinking of building a box or using an old freezer, since it is already pretty air tight and adding an inert gas into it to protect the comb.
Will it kill the eggs as well as the larvae and bugs?
Jim

Putting on my Year10 Dux of Chemistry hat - which is a tad moth eaten itself, Jim - like what our "Greenies/TreeHuggers" approve of as a method to despatch canetoads (bufos marinus [sp?]) CO2 kills by asphixiation (sp?)
in depriving said toads of oxygen. Given all eggs have a membrane to allow oxygen and moisture to penetrate in sustaining the egg I would deduce likewise applies.
So yes, and I would offer "Dry Nitrogen" is maybe cheaper and easier to handle and also could be used to pump up your vehicle tyres! :-)

Cheers.

Bill

I will check into the nitrogen. I did not think it would be cheaper than CO2.
Jim
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
Ben Franklin

Offline BeeMaster2

  • Administrator
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 13532
  • Gender: Male
Re: Gas box for drawn frames
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2017, 01:23:54 pm »
Sorry about the double post. I typed it and it disappeared. Tried several things to get back to it and had to start over. When I saved it, it came up as is.
Jim
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
Ben Franklin

Offline paus

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 661
  • Gender: Male
Re: Gas box for drawn frames
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2017, 01:38:42 pm »
I think I lost a post also.  How about putting some dry ice in the bottom of an old deep freezer and filling it with frames. Close the lid and leave it alone, as the dry ice evaporates it will release CO2 and suffocate any thing that requires oxygen. If the freezer works turn it on and hit them with a double whammy.

Offline Eric Bosworth

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 998
  • Gender: Male
  • I love New York... I hate the government.
Re: Gas box for drawn frames
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2017, 04:00:37 pm »
I think I lost a post also.  How about putting some dry ice in the bottom of an old deep freezer and filling it with frames. Close the lid and leave it alone, as the dry ice evaporates it will release CO2 and suffocate any thing that requires oxygen. If the freezer works turn it on and hit them with a double whammy.
That's great if you have dry ice... and a freezer... My problem is I don't have a freezer big enough for the number of frames I would want to freeze.
All political power comes from the barrel of a gun. The communist party must command all the guns; that way, no guns can ever be used to command the party. ---Mao Tse Tung

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. ---Benjamin Franklin

Offline paus

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 661
  • Gender: Male
Re: Gas box for drawn frames
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2017, 06:33:26 pm »
Our local Walmart has dry ice and Craig's list has Free freezers very often and some of them work.

Offline Eric Bosworth

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 998
  • Gender: Male
  • I love New York... I hate the government.
Re: Gas box for drawn frames
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2017, 10:50:27 pm »
Humm... I never thought to look at craigslist for a freezer. I'll have to check it out.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk

All political power comes from the barrel of a gun. The communist party must command all the guns; that way, no guns can ever be used to command the party. ---Mao Tse Tung

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. ---Benjamin Franklin

Offline eltalia

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1170
Re: Gas box for drawn frames
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2017, 05:40:00 am »
If it helps Eric.. back in the day icecream for kids at jamborees and fetes was stored in a canvas bag, at around 1200mm high with a 300mm diameter these bags kept icecream 'cones'  frozen with maybe a kilogram of dry-ice packed.
Reason I mention it is maybe one could tarp(cover) a large number of frames then throw in the CO2 pellets to gas them. Might need some work to thrash out the final method but should be way more efficient than running a freezer of the size required.
Worth a thought, I reckon.

Cheers.

Bill

(edited by author for spelling)

Offline paus

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 661
  • Gender: Male
Re: Gas box for drawn frames
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2017, 08:52:31 am »
Dry ice is co2 as it evaporates it would settle in the bottom of the freezer and take care of your varmints by suffocation. by displacing the air in the freezer. co2 has a specific gravity of 1.528 therefore it would settle in the freezer.  The freezing factor would not need to be a consideration, or possibly a garbage bag and a little dry ice would be effective.

Offline Acebird

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 8112
  • Gender: Male
  • Just do it
Re: Gas box for drawn frames
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2017, 09:17:50 am »
Dry ice is co2 as it evaporates it would settle in the bottom of the freezer and take care of your varmints by suffocation. by displacing the air in the freezer. co2 has a specific gravity of 1.528 therefore it would settle in the freezer.  The freezing factor would not need to be a consideration, or possibly a garbage bag and a little dry ice would be effective.

It would be better to use a refrigerator to let the oxygen out.  Just make sure the trap in the defrost drain is blown out.  If you use a chest freezer put a small stick between the door and chest on the hinge side.  That should create enough leakage to let the oxygen out.
Brian Cardinal
Just do it

Offline paus

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 661
  • Gender: Male
Re: Gas box for drawn frames
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2017, 10:06:27 am »
I have had some experience with dry ice, as an instrumentation and controls engineer, I worked for the world leader in manufacture of dry ice equipment. When the Dry ice evaporates it expands as the co2 is heaver than air, the air rises,  even if the lid was tight there would be enough pressure to force all of the air out of the deepfreeze.  The DI will layer on the bottom and force air out of a deep freeze. A fridge will allow the co2 to flow out of any micro opening in the bottom of the door and would be ineffective.  Picture this as similar to oil and water, the water settles out of the oil, as will the co2 in air.

Offline Acebird

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 8112
  • Gender: Male
  • Just do it
Re: Gas box for drawn frames
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2017, 10:11:57 am »
If that were true kids wouldn't suffocate in a refrigerator.
Brian Cardinal
Just do it

Offline paus

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 661
  • Gender: Male
Re: Gas box for drawn frames
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2017, 11:13:41 am »
Kids do suffocate in abandoned fridges, this is apples and oranges, in that humans generate lots of co2 and need air to breath  which is not available in the quantity needed.  A fridge would work but a freezer is air tight in the bottom, where the co2 settles.  The garbage bag is also air tight except for pin holes sometimes , witness the water on the floor from carrying out the garbage, which is strongly pointed out by my normally loving wife, as she hands me a mop.

Offline Acebird

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 8112
  • Gender: Male
  • Just do it
Re: Gas box for drawn frames
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2017, 02:16:19 pm »
If what you are saying is true you could lay the refrigerator on it's back and essentially you have the same chest. You are not running the refrigerator.  I am not convinced that there is enough leakage in a refrigerator door to exhaust the CO2 such that it wouldn't suffocate the eggs and larvae.
Brian Cardinal
Just do it

Offline paus

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 661
  • Gender: Male
Re: Gas box for drawn frames
« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2017, 02:33:56 pm »
Ace, I think you are right on target by laying the fridge on its back.  If the seal around the door is  tight it would work standing up real well, but I like the idea of laying it down.

Offline little john

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 1537
Re: Gas box for drawn frames
« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2017, 05:17:17 pm »
If it's asphyxiation you're after, then a light-fraction hydrocarbon would do the job.  We all know that methane kills (all too often) when farmers work inside slurry tanks without breathing apparatus.  Propane, butane, even gasoline would asphyxiate by being heavier than air and thus displacing it, and so denying any access to oxygen.  The only problem with these of course is that all it would take is one small spark and ... well ... you wouldn't have a wax moth problem anymore, that's for sure.
LJ

A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping - http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com

Offline eltalia

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1170
Re: Gas box for drawn frames
« Reply #19 on: August 10, 2017, 06:07:30 pm »
LJ wrote
"If it's asphyxiation you're after...."

There is where both my posts go.
G'mnt border control biosecurity uses the tarp concept on whole
shipping containers in fumigating the contents without unpacking the box.
Trapping an inert gas long enough to asphyxiate should work on the
 same line of practice.

Cheers.

Bill

Offline Acebird

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 8112
  • Gender: Male
  • Just do it
Re: Gas box for drawn frames
« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2017, 09:06:56 pm »
It doesn't affect mary jane.  Just like homeland security in the airports all they need is dogs.  They don't need to look at my shriveling balls.
Brian Cardinal
Just do it

Offline eltalia

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1170
Re: Gas box for drawn frames
« Reply #21 on: August 11, 2017, 02:15:56 am »
It doesn't affect mary jane.  Just like homeland security in the airports all they need is dogs.  They don't need to look at my shriveling.... (edit)

Like that line in the song goes, I reckon...
"Take a letter Mary, send it to my....[insert deity name person here]"

:chuckles:

Bill

Offline Robo

  • Technical
  • Administrator
  • Galactic Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 6778
  • Gender: Male
  • Beekeep On!
    • Bushkill Bee Vac
Re: Gas box for drawn frames
« Reply #22 on: August 11, 2017, 09:40:38 am »
Jim,

Here is another option and what I use for wax moth control (Assume it would work for SHB as well).   I built a box lid that sits on a stack of hive bodies and has a UV ozone light in it.   I have mine on a timer that comes on for 20min (limitation of timer) every 6 hrs. I just move it from stack to stack when I get a chance.   Easy to use and does not require any enclosures.   Works well for me and hopefully is providing some beneficial disinfection as well.


"Opportunity is missed by most people because it comes dressed in overalls and looks like work." - Thomas Edison



Offline Acebird

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 8112
  • Gender: Male
  • Just do it
Re: Gas box for drawn frames
« Reply #23 on: August 11, 2017, 09:50:37 am »
Might I make a suggestion ...
Turn the light 90 degrees and mount it underneath the box.  Do one box at a time.  This will give the comb maximum exposure.  I don't think you need the timer you just need to find out the exposure time for kill ratio.  Using two lights would be better and give a more even exposure across the length of the frame.  In your present set up past the two center frames are getting nothing.  The boxes below even less.
Brian Cardinal
Just do it

Offline Robo

  • Technical
  • Administrator
  • Galactic Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 6778
  • Gender: Male
  • Beekeep On!
    • Bushkill Bee Vac
Re: Gas box for drawn frames
« Reply #24 on: August 11, 2017, 11:00:31 am »
I guess I should have been clearer that I am just using the lights as a source for ozone.  I was also looking for something simple and quick. 

Ozone is heavier than air and tends to settle, so by putting it on top, not only does it avoid having to move hive bodies around all the time,  it also gets quicker exposure to the ozone.  Since ozone generating bulbs have a fixed lifetime, but using the timer I am hopefully extending how much use I get out of it.  Even at 20 minutes 4x a day, the frames maintain a strong ozone smell whenever they are taken.   I could probably reduce the exposure even more.   With this one setup I can easily protect 50-60 drawn hive bodies (most likely even more if I had a need and a more regimented plan) with minimal work.
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it comes dressed in overalls and looks like work." - Thomas Edison



Offline Acebird

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 8112
  • Gender: Male
  • Just do it
Re: Gas box for drawn frames
« Reply #25 on: August 11, 2017, 05:51:40 pm »
I didn't know there was such a thing as an oZone bulb.  My familiarity with ozone generating would come from arching.
Brian Cardinal
Just do it

Offline little john

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 1537
Re: Gas box for drawn frames
« Reply #26 on: August 12, 2017, 05:08:24 am »
I didn't know there was such a thing as an oZone bulb.  My familiarity with ozone generating would come from arching.

Me too.  I had to look that one up.  I must say that the idea of using one of those kitchen electronic fly-killers (blue-white lamp and high-voltage mesh) to deal with wax-moths is very appealing indeed.  Will have to work on this.  Thanks, Robo.
LJ
A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping - http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com

Offline eltalia

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1170
Re: Gas box for drawn frames
« Reply #27 on: August 12, 2017, 06:31:05 am »
I alone am never going to infuence you fellas to "think green".. hey?

                  :chuckles:
Bill

Offline little john

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 1537
Re: Gas box for drawn frames
« Reply #28 on: August 12, 2017, 10:18:23 am »
Well - if you know of a simple 'green' method of keeping several hundred drawn brood combs wax-moth-free over winter ... I'm all ears.  Up until now I've been freezing the combs, a couple of dozen at a time, then storing them in stacked brood boxes under dust covers. This works ok-ish, but not brilliantly, and is a faff-around to arrange.  I find plastic bags/sheeting causes mold build-up - else I'd use plastic.  So - what's the green answer ?
LJ



A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping - http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com

Offline eltalia

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1170
Re: Gas box for drawn frames
« Reply #29 on: August 12, 2017, 09:31:27 pm »

Well - if you know of a simple 'green' method of keeping several hundred drawn brood combs wax-moth-free over winter ... I'm all ears.
(edit)
 So - what's the green answer ?
LJ

There is no "green answer" for all applications, yet one specific answer could be deployed in your situation, LJ.
That answer lies, as always, in looking at the target;

http://agriculture.vic.gov.au/agriculture/pests-diseases-and-weeds/pest-insects-and-mites/wax-moth-a-pest-of-combs-and-honey-bee-products

"Damage occurs mainly in the warm and hot months of the year when wax moths are most active. However, considerable damage can still occur during the cool part of late autumn and early spring as greater wax moth can produce a large amount of metabolic heat which can raise the immediate temperature around them by up to 25C above the normal environment temperature. Little if any damage is seen in the extremely cold winter period, because the larvae are relatively inactive.
(edit)
"The eggs hatch within 3 - 5 days when temperatures range from 29C to 35C. Hatching is delayed when temperatures are colder and at 18C hatching commences about 30 days after egg laying."

So... in your barn/shed a palletised stack of boxed frames could be wrapped in builders plastic, taped to a loose seal to ground, and fed by a simple cobbled together timed gas feed of dry nitrogen initiated/terminated via a "top of stack" mounted thermostat with a set point of 0.Celcius and a diffetential of 5.
The operation would then inject nitrogen say twice a day for four hours when the stack ambient reached 0.Celcius, becoming inactive at ambients below -5.Celcius.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lighter_than_air
"Nitrogen gas (density 1.251 g/L at STP, average atomic mass 28.00 g/mol) is about 3% lighter than air, insufficient for common use as a lifting gas."

Of lower usage cost then Argon and only marginally more cost inhibitive than CO2 - given quantities used - nitrogen should prove a safe cheaper alternative than options put so far. Though I am liking Robo's option as it suits us in the tropics whereas the nitrogen option may prove a higher cost over the electrical charge for ozone generation, for us.

http://www.rentfreegas.com.au/hvac-nitrogen-bottle-rent-free-cost-comparison/

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=cost%20of%20dry%20nitrogen%20per%20cylinder&source=web&cd=6&ved=0ahUKEwjs_KuSutLVAhUDW7wKHaifAKkQFggoMAU&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.umass.edu%2Fprocurement%2Fcontracts%2FCA11-RH-4042%2520-%2520Pricing%2520Recap%2520for%2520Air%2520Gas.pdf&usg=AFQjCNGQDlYMPCqi3HTdMCi34xVIDifgLA

http://www.peakscientific.com/genius/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI8Ki5i8HS1QIVk4C9Ch26IQjMEAAYAyAAEgKZz_D_BwE

http://www.bubble-o-meter.com/bom.php?curPos=BOM

Flow control is achieved via a 24hour timer controlling a thermostat initiated solenoid which feeds a simple glass/poly bubbler from a regulated nitrogen cylinder. For fault protection all that electrical apparatus could be fed from a 20AmpHour gel cell battery charged through a self regulating 12Volt amorphous photovoltaic cell, roof mounted.


For myself none of any of these options for wax moth control are or ever have been required as it just not something I have ever had to worry about in either a commercial or domestic apiary operation.
Storing comb long term is not a feature of Aussie bee management, in my experience.
The above is simply what has been put together from some light reading and a little thought around how - in a past life - we handled farm-gate produce pest and disease control, using ethlyene and fumicides for hundreds of tonnes of produce daily.
If required I could supply electrical and gas plumbing schematics.

Cheers.

Bill


 

anything