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Author Topic: Adding bees to a slow or failing hive  (Read 5142 times)

Offline Skeggley

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Re: Adding bees to a slow or failing hive
« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2019, 09:14:03 pm »
The other was a healthy cutout placed in 10-frame brood box last month.  It now has a super with bees partially working the top box from inspection 10 days ago and they are still drinking syrup from top feeder.
So is the theory here to get the frames in the super drawn then stop feeding?

Offline ed/La.

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Re: Adding bees to a slow or failing hive
« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2019, 10:53:56 pm »
Once you see the brood and larva inspection is over for me. By then you know if brood box is getting honey bound. If it is honey bound move a few frames up and replace with fresh frames. I don't worry about seeing the queen unless I am taking frames to move to another box.

Offline saltybluegrass

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Re: Adding bees to a slow or failing hive
« Reply #22 on: April 19, 2019, 11:03:27 pm »
The other was a healthy cutout placed in 10-frame brood box last month.  It now has a super with bees partially working the top box from inspection 10 days ago and they are still drinking syrup from top feeder.
So is the theory here to get the frames in the super drawn then stop feeding?

That?s what I assumed - I don?t know how to stop feeding as in - what to look for to make sure the bees are self supported
And I think to myself, what a wonderful world
Then all else falls in line
It?s up to me

Offline Skeggley

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Re: Adding bees to a slow or failing hive
« Reply #23 on: April 19, 2019, 11:31:43 pm »
Generally feeding bees is only necessary when building supplies in the bb/s. I wouldn't feed with supers on as I don't want tainted honey nor do I have supers on if it isn't honey season.
Dying feed is also a good practice as during a flow the bees will move stores from the bb to the supers to make room for brood.

Offline saltybluegrass

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Re: Adding bees to a slow or failing hive
« Reply #24 on: April 20, 2019, 10:30:06 am »
Ok, so since these are month old cutouts , I will inspect for stores today and adjust accordingly. Thanks
And I think to myself, what a wonderful world
Then all else falls in line
It?s up to me

Offline saltybluegrass

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Re: Adding bees to a slow or failing hive
« Reply #25 on: May 01, 2019, 05:46:02 pm »
I?ve ordered a screen board to stack this slow hive on top of my other.
My others are very new hives so I don?t want to take frames of brood and eggs from them.
How and when can I tell if this combination is successful?
And I think to myself, what a wonderful world
Then all else falls in line
It?s up to me

Offline TheHoneyPump

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Re: Adding bees to a slow or failing hive
« Reply #26 on: May 01, 2019, 06:11:53 pm »
Is there a queen?  Is it a virgin queen or a laying queen in the weak colony?


Below applies if you have a laying queen in both colonies.

IMHO.  A double screen is not going to do much of anything to improve the population of the weak hive.  It helps with allowing warmth to come up from below. That's it. Other than that, they are still effectively completely on their own.

The pictured configuration works for boosting the nest workforce of a weak colony without taking anything away from the other hive. What it represents is a two queen hive. The youngest nurse bees have no allegiance and will go wherever there is brood that needs them. The weak hive will get a boost of brood workers. The strong hive gets a small boost of old foraging workers from the weak hive. To set it up,

First: 
1) ensure both colonies are healthy and that they will not infect each other.
2) ensure the broodnest in the bottom colony has empty space for their queen to keep busy for next 2 weeks. That means 4 empty frames.  Move out honey/syrup full combs and replace with empty combs. For brood having to come out to make the space, shake the bees off and put the brood in the weak colony's box.
Once space is setup, Light misting of the top bars and bees of the lower colony with sugar syrup (some EO or HBH in the spray if you wish, may be helpful)

Next
Put the paper on.
Fold 2 of the 4 corners of the paper in ever so slightly such that there is a triangle hole size of 1.5 bee only at 2 opposing corners of the box. Make a slit 3" long through both layers of paper. Cut a clean slit with a very sharp knife, not holes, not tears.  Locate the slit centred between the 2nd and 3rd frames in from the outside of the box. Do this on both sides. Result is 2 slits for bees to chew and force themselves through, plus ventilation/beeways in opposing corners.   
Light misting the paper with sugar syrup (some EO or HBH in the spray if you wish)
Put QE on top of the paper.
Put weak colony on top of the QE.
No top entrance. All bees go up/down through both nests to work and to get out. A very small hole, screened, is ok but keep it very small so as to keep both sets of pheromones mixing in the hive without a chimney effect wafting those out.
Leave undisturbed, do not touch anything, for at least 10 days. Then go look for evenly distributed bees and two queens building massive broodnests in each box.
After 2 to 3 weeks, when you are happy with the amount of bees and structure of the nest in the top box, take it off and place it on its own bottom board to become its own hive.

If there is a heavy flow on with much coming in; use a second excluder, placing super(s) between the two colony nests.

The alternative is to move a frame of capped brood and attached youngest nurse bees over into the weak colony.  The traditional brood boost.

An option, for your consideration.
Hope that helps!
« Last Edit: May 02, 2019, 02:51:37 am by TheHoneyPump »
When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Offline saltybluegrass

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Re: Adding bees to a slow or failing hive
« Reply #27 on: May 01, 2019, 11:33:07 pm »
That?s an awesome well written instruction.
The weak hive are comprised of rubberbanded comb. I?m a new beek and don?t have access to the comb that replaces the brood frame I take from good hive. I?ve got frames w and w/o foundation and some piece mail comb I could puzzle together but it would be a pain. What?s the best choice ?
And I think to myself, what a wonderful world
Then all else falls in line
It?s up to me

Offline TheHoneyPump

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Adding bees to a slow or failing hive
« Reply #28 on: May 02, 2019, 02:17:47 pm »
That?s an awesome well written instruction.
The weak hive are comprised of rubberbanded comb. I?m a new beek and don?t have access to the comb that replaces the brood frame I take from good hive. I?ve got frames w and w/o foundation and some piece mail comb I could puzzle together but it would be a pain. What?s the best choice ?

Comb is gold. Bees spend a lot of resources and energy to make comb.  Whatever you can do to reduce that effort, most especially in weak colonies, will go a long way to helping them. The comb banded and pieced together does not have to be perfect. The bees will rework the wax into how they want it. You listed additional hives that are doing very well.  There may be some drawn combs in those that could be brought over to help this situation.

If there is a lot of empty space in the hive then foundation frames are recommended to minimize cross combs. If putting in only one or two new frames then foundationless frame set in between existing fully drawn frames can work great.

We could try to help guide you with a frame configuration if you would post the secret code (or pictures) of what you currently have in each box.  See below.  There is no perfect arrangement of the combs. Though there are guidelines. This is a point where beekeepers can differ a lot in how they prefer to setup the boxes. I submit that as long as the guidelines are followed the details do not matter and are not worth arguing over. Simply because the important fact to understand is that regardless best efforts and intent on the part of the beekeeper, the bees are going to completely undo most of it to reorganize the whole box(es) the way THEY want it.

Your objective at the initial setup of a brood nest is to:
- keep brood together so it is warm and easiest for the cluster to care for,
- put empty drawn comb next to brood for queen to keep going uninterrupted,
- put resources (honey/pollen) next to brood and empty comb for the nurse bees,
- put foundation or new bare open frames in between drawn combs so the new frames get built straight. 
After that initial setup, leave the brood nest to the bees to do whatever they want with it.
  F = foundation
  E = empty drawn comb, includes cutout piece meal comb, banded comb
  B = frame with brood on it, includes piece meal comb, banded comb
  H = resource frame of honey, syrup, pollen
  L = open bare frame, foundationless
  S = feeder, syrup frame feeder. If no S use H

For Example: ... assuming 10 frame boxes. What you have and what you could end up with may look something like this.  There are certainly other arrangements/combinations. Depends on what you have for frames and comb to work with.

Top box:
     SEEEBBHFFF
Bottom box:
     HEEEBEHFFF

Quote from a very experienced and very successful beekeeper: 
The bees spend a lot of time and effort undoing whatever the beekeeper did. Every time you lift a lid you are a disruption despite your best intentions. When going into a hive have a very specific purpose and do only what is needed for YOU. Leave the rest to the bees. They do not need you. Remember that.

I wish you all the successes at accomplishing your goals with this weak hive.

Hope that helps!
« Last Edit: May 04, 2019, 01:21:50 pm by TheHoneyPump »
When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Offline saltybluegrass

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Re: Adding bees to a slow or failing hive
« Reply #29 on: May 02, 2019, 04:00:12 pm »
You?re the best-
Respectfully,
Barefoot
And I think to myself, what a wonderful world
Then all else falls in line
It?s up to me

Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Adding bees to a slow or failing hive
« Reply #30 on: May 02, 2019, 04:09:07 pm »
HP, I am impressed with your time, efforts and knowledge devoted or shared to BeeMaster.  You write like an English teacher with the clarity of a technical writer.  Thank you, Sir, you certainly have filled in many blanks for me.
Blessings

Barefoot, Agreed.
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline saltybluegrass

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Re: Adding bees to a slow or failing hive
« Reply #31 on: May 02, 2019, 09:13:44 pm »
HP, I am impressed with your time, efforts and knowledge devoted or shared to BeeMaster.  You write like an English teacher with the clarity of a technical writer.  Thank you, Sir, you certainly have filled in many blanks for me.
Blessings

Barefoot, Agreed.
Van
There are no words for blessings like we find in people like HP or similar people in our lives.
I want to extend my thanks to all here because I don?t have a mentor but am trying to use this board to make an effective apiary
And I think to myself, what a wonderful world
Then all else falls in line
It?s up to me

Offline TheHoneyPump

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Adding bees to a slow or failing hive
« Reply #32 on: May 03, 2019, 06:39:19 pm »
For BM folks.  Regarding the weak hive boost method presented.  I had to do so just recently, for reasons described in the video.  Knowing the interest here, and especially due to appreciations shown, I took some time to record it to demonstrate the technique.

https://youtu.be/QIhC8v-cSfQ

Enjoy!

I hope that helps.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2019, 03:37:20 pm by TheHoneyPump »
When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Offline saltybluegrass

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Re: Adding bees to a slow or failing hive
« Reply #33 on: May 03, 2019, 11:37:33 pm »
Had to put on socks and a sweater cap to watch that!!! I used to love the snow. The video was as good as the book! Thanks
And I think to myself, what a wonderful world
Then all else falls in line
It?s up to me

Offline herbhome

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Re: Adding bees to a slow or failing hive
« Reply #34 on: May 04, 2019, 12:53:24 am »

One of these things is not like the others,
One of these things just doesn't belong,
Can you tell which thing is not like the others
By the time I finish my song
?


I like this!  :smile:
Neill

Offline FloridaGardener

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Re: Adding bees to a slow or failing hive
« Reply #35 on: May 04, 2019, 11:54:32 am »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Sgk-ZYxKxM
 
Thank you, Sesame Street, for helping me through my whole life.  :)

Offline TheHoneyPump

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Re: Adding bees to a slow or failing hive
« Reply #36 on: May 04, 2019, 10:26:10 pm »
.
When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Offline The15thMember

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Re: Adding bees to a slow or failing hive
« Reply #37 on: May 05, 2019, 01:42:09 am »

One of these things is not like the others,
One of these things just doesn't belong,
Can you tell which thing is not like the others
By the time I finish my song
?

I learned this song slightly different when I was little. I learned the last two lines as ?Can you guess which one is not like the others?  One of these things is wrong.?  I like this version better. It?s more inclusive. The silver hat isn?t wrong just because it?s not a fireman?s hat.  :cheesy:
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline blackforest beekeeper

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Re: Adding bees to a slow or failing hive
« Reply #38 on: May 05, 2019, 02:50:06 am »
Just stumbled on this thread.
I just saw a video from Ian Steppler. He put on newspaper without slits apparently and the bees did not merge cause they didn`t chew it up.
I never use newspaper. I just put the weak colony on the excluder and I never had a problem. Though I have to admit, I only do this rarely, not on a grand scale.

Offline saltybluegrass

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Re: Adding bees to a slow or failing hive
« Reply #39 on: May 05, 2019, 09:07:40 am »

One of these things is not like the others,
One of these things just doesn't belong,
Can you tell which thing is not like the others
By the time I finish my song
?

I learned this song slightly different when I was little. I learned the last two lines as ?Can you guess which one is not like the others?  One of these things is wrong.?  I like this version better. It?s more inclusive. The silver hat isn?t wrong just because it?s not a fireman?s hat.  :cheesy:

I bet you are a hoot with Elton John lyrics!! - Speaking from self experience of making my own lines
And I think to myself, what a wonderful world
Then all else falls in line
It?s up to me

 

anything