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Author Topic: A question about Queen Reintroduction  (Read 5775 times)

Offline CoolBees

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A question about Queen Reintroduction
« on: April 03, 2019, 01:24:42 am »
What to do? ...

I did some splits on 3/24. Checking on them today, I discovered that one of them ended up with my H1 queen ... because it was queenright, with fresh eggs, young brood, and she was marching around like ... a Queen. :cheesy:

I inspected H1 (my original hive - thus the H1 designation) and verified that there's no queen at the moment.

It's not a bad thing. H1 will produce a lot of honey in the next couple weeks as a result. Also, they will likely make their own queen shortly. ... but here's what got me thinking ...

In the H1 inspection, I noted that every empty cell was highly polished as the bees had prepared them for eggs to be laid. As such, if I reintroduce the Queen, she will lay many frames full of eggs in 3 or 4 days. ... with all those freshly laid eggs I could make more splits ...  :cool:

Question is, what the best method of reintroduction to get her back into H1?

The nuc she's in, has lots of eggs and young larvae now and could definitely raise a new queen.

I'm thinking of creating another nuc with a shaken swarm, introduce her to that after 24 hrs, and then use a newspaper combine via a Nuc Intro  board to get her back into H1.

Am I out-to-lunch? What's are some of the better ways to go about this?

Thank you for your thoughts in advance,
Alan
You cannot permanently help men by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves - Abraham Lincoln

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Re: A question about Queen Reintroduction
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2019, 05:08:21 am »
Alan,
You can just move her back to her original hive. They are queen less and she was their queen. I have put mated queens right into queen less hives directly with no problem. Just to put your mind at ease, put her in a queen cage and place it on top of the frames for a few minutes. Then do the finger test to see if she is being accepted.
Jim Altmiller
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Offline Oldbeavo

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Re: A question about Queen Reintroduction
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2019, 07:37:44 am »
Jim
What is the finger test?
The nuc will end up with a nice queen from the H1 eggs.

Offline iddee

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Re: A question about Queen Reintroduction
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2019, 08:05:54 am »
I would just do a straight newspaper combine.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Re: A question about Queen Reintroduction
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2019, 08:43:36 am »
Here is the link to 2 videos that I made for checking if the bees are accepting your queen or not.
https://beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=52028.0
Alan wanted to put the queen back in H1. This is the fastest and easiest way to do it safely.
Jim
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
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Offline ed/La.

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Re: A question about Queen Reintroduction
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2019, 08:51:29 am »
I would just leave the queen where she is and put a frame or 2 of the polished come in brood with her. In few days give back to original hive. Give queen another frame or 2. Better to have a strong hive make queens then a weak one. They will make several queen cells for your next splits or to have a queen bank.

Offline CoolBees

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Re: A question about Queen Reintroduction
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2019, 01:34:40 pm »
Jim - I guess I'll be needing a queen cage after all. I thought I'd get away without one, but I'll need it at some point anyways. BTW - I had watched you video(s) previously. They are very helpful. Thanks for putting them together.

Alan
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Offline CoolBees

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Re: A question about Queen Reintroduction
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2019, 01:40:59 pm »
Ed - I like that idea. That way she could be very useful right where she is.

It's funny to me - I opened the nucs looking for capped queen cells on day 9. Instead I find a peaceful, dominant, queen, fresh eggs, and brood. Totally a WTH moment. I'm catching on quicker - only took me 10 seconds or so to figure out what happened. Haha! ... I bit longer to figure out where I should go from here though ... hahaha.
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Offline TheHoneyPump

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Re: A question about Queen Reintroduction
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2019, 05:40:31 pm »
Least disruption is to leave her where she is.   

Or, pull 3 to 4 frames bees and all out of the center of H1. Pickup 3 to 4 frames bees and all from the nuc that the queen is on, leave her walking around with her brood and bees on those frames, and drop those frames into the empty space in H1.

When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: A question about Queen Reintroduction
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2019, 12:09:58 am »
And again, another way to re-introduce her to the original box per your original question, is to spray her with a mixture of sugar water and just enough honey bee healthy to give off a good scent. Also, spray the bees in the box that she will be returned. Simply spray a reasonable amount on top of and in between the frames. An old timer that does videos taught this to me. He says he has never had a queen rejected using this method. He just simply does as described and turns her loose and down in the box she goes.! Last year I was buying pollen from him.  His name is Tim Durham. Many years ago, while living in North Carolina, he got a call from Aunt Bea, of the Andy Griffin Show and did a cut out from her home. He says she was just as sweet in person as she played on the show. There are good suggestions here, any one should work. I would, if it were me, go with eds suggestion in this particular case.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2019, 12:24:41 am by Ben Framed »
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Re: A question about Queen Reintroduction
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2019, 06:52:23 am »
Alan,
I had to introduce a queen to a hive on Wednesday. I only had a plastic queen cage and put her in it. I put it in the top of the hive and got no reaction at first. I left it there and after a while the bees covered it. The finger test was easy to move the bees but I was not sure if it was valid. The plastic cage does not provide a place for the bees to grab on to. I went and found a wood queen cage and transferred her into it. The bees again covered it. This time all but one were easy to move. I repeated the test a second time and they all moved. I removed the cork and let her out. She walked right in nice and easy.
I?m not sure it the plastic queen cages would allow the bees to hold. Always use a wood cage with the screen for this test.
Jim
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
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Offline ed/La.

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Re: A question about Queen Reintroduction
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2019, 08:34:13 am »
When you get around to dispatching the queen put her in small jar with alcohol. I refrigerate. Not sure if you have to. You make bait lure with old queens to catch swarms.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: A question about Queen Reintroduction
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2019, 08:39:32 am »
When you get around to dispatching the queen put her in small jar with alcohol. I refrigerate. Not sure if you have to. You make bait lure with old queens to catch swarms.

I have heard this before but I have not been told exactly how to use this as bait. How do you use this ed? Thanks for the tip.
Phillip
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Offline blackforest beekeeper

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Re: A question about Queen Reintroduction
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2019, 09:31:49 am »
I go with THP. The risk is not worth it. Take a block of frames with the queen and drop her into the old hive if you want. but in a cage....it`s not worth it if its a good queen.
save on the cage in any of both options.
queen cells are "their queen" now, so they might not like the old one any more.

Offline ed/La.

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Re: A question about Queen Reintroduction
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2019, 11:14:54 am »
Some people crush queens before putting in alcohol. Did tip in solution and put in straw cut to length to slow evaporation. Same way many use lemon grass oil. I use both if I can. I would not buy it but I will make it.

Offline CoolBees

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Re: A question about Queen Reintroduction
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2019, 01:10:40 pm »
Alan,
I had to introduce a queen to a hive on Wednesday. I only had a plastic queen cage and put her in it. I put it in the top of the hive and got no reaction at first. I left it there and after a while the bees covered it. The finger test was easy to move the bees but I was not sure if it was valid. The plastic cage does not provide a place for the bees to grab on to. I went and found a wood queen cage and transferred her into it. The bees again covered it. This time all but one were easy to move. I repeated the test a second time and they all moved. I removed the cork and let her out. She walked right in nice and easy.
I?m not sure it the plastic queen cages would allow the bees to hold. Always use a wood cage with the screen for this test.
Jim

Thanks Jim. I've watched the video you did on the finger test. Very good video. ... unfortunately I'm 1 queen cage short of following your advice. :grin: I've never actually seen a queen cage in real life.  :embarassed:

So in this case, I think I'll follow Ed's advice, and put clean polished frames in for a couple days, then pull them and distribute where needed to raise queens. I really like the daughters that this queen throws.  :grin:
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Offline TheHoneyPump

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Re: A question about Queen Reintroduction
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2019, 01:58:10 pm »
Just some math behind the frames and timing, for consideration. 

Assuming you are running standard deep frames for the brood.  3500 cells per side, 7000 cells per frame.  The bees are going to fill and use 30%-40% of that for resources.  Nectar pollen, bee bread, cleaning/polishing.  Leaving 0.6*3500; 2100 per side, 4200 cells per frame available to the queen to lay in.   ( Hey! Jim look .... -42- )

A decent average queen will lay 1200-1400 a day, in good balmy weather and a busy buzzy rockin it out hive.  Some will do more some will do less.  If she is a good old queen, then let us just use 1200 as her lay rate.  Based on that it will take the queen 2100/1200 days per side or 4200/1200 days per frame to layout. ( 1.75 days per side, 3.5 days per frame )

The bees, assuming there are more than one of them on the frame working it, will certainly be able to prepare and polish the cells faster than the queen will lay them. So you can totally disregard the thought or concern about there being nice polished unused frames in the other hive body. It is not worth the effort or the disruptions to the nests to go shuffle those. Leave the bees to do what bees do with the combs.

If you would like to use her in the split as a brood factory, and for grafting new queens, that is a wonderful idea.  Ensure they have a constant supply of pollen and feed without having to do much foraging. Watch their stores level and if necessary feed the split she is in. 

As for when to harvest frames, the math is above.  Once per week you can pull 2 frames of brood out of her.  She may and will lay out just a bit more than 2 frames per week, but leave that extra bit with her.  Old bees do not raise brood well, and old bees die.  So she also needs her bees in the split constantly being replenished with new bees as the old ones die off.  A mistake folks make with brood factories is to pull all the brood each time, each week, then wonder why the brood factory crashed. Simple, she needs brood too! So ensure to leave her some.

Once a week pull 2 brood frames. Before you go stick the frame in a separate hive, graft a few larvae off the frame into cups to start some queen cells.  Put 4 to 6 of your grafted cups between the centre top bars of each split.  Then go put the frame into a hive that needs the boost.  Adding the grafting step gives you some practice and gets the splits drawing some cells into a place that you can move them if need be.  You can move the extra drawn QC cups from the successes to other splits that failed to start any.  It adds some fun factor and allows you to manage the cells easily without having to pull frames and cut cells out of the combs.  Just a thought.

Three important points / prerequisites.  1. She has enough bees to keep up with her to work the frames and raise the brood, and 2. there is copious amounts of feed (protein) right next to them.  3. Do not take all the brood each week. Ensure she is left a half frame of emerging brood each week.

Hope that helps!
 
« Last Edit: April 05, 2019, 02:46:39 pm by TheHoneyPump »
When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Offline CoolBees

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Re: A question about Queen Reintroduction
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2019, 02:04:37 am »
HP - as always, your responses are thorough, knowledgeable, and very much appreciated!

I'll keep all that in mind. I see your point about disturbing the original hive all the time.

Thank you kindly.
Alan
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Offline CoolBees

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Re: A question about Queen Reintroduction
« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2019, 02:07:29 am »
I go with THP. The risk is not worth it. Take a block of frames with the queen and drop her into the old hive if you want. but in a cage....it`s not worth it if its a good queen.
save on the cage in any of both options.
queen cells are "their queen" now, so they might not like the old one any more.

Blackforest - thanks for chiming in. I do like this queen. I think I'll leave her where she is and try to raise daughters from her for the rest of the season. Nothing else is worth the risk.

 Cheers!
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Offline CoolBees

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Re: A question about Queen Reintroduction
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2019, 03:12:58 pm »
A quick update on this. Yesterday my daughter and I inspected several hives.

H1 is now queenright. We were lucky enough to spot her. She's laid up 4 frames with eggs. ... we stopped the inspection when we ran into her. No need to go further.

H6 (split containing Queen fron H1 that I decided to leave there) is doing well, but there is a fully developed Queen Cell. A close look at the existing queen, showed her wings are very tattered. She's laying well, so I'm thinking I may pull this queen cell to another nuc.
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